Helpless: +4 to attack AND -4 to AC?


Rules Questions


6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder CRB, page 567 wrote:
Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks get no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

Also:

Pathfinder CRB, page 197 wrote:
Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. In addition, a helpless character is treated as having a Dexterity of 0, giving him a –5 penalty to AC against both melee and ranged attacks (for a total of –9 against melee and –5 against ranged). A helpless character is also flat-footed.

Do these stack, or are they intended to be different representations of the same thing? In other words, is the attack made at 8 points to the defender's detriment or 4?

Thanks.


This seems to be a case of 2 different people writing those parts and wording them differently...however RAW it does say ones a bonus and the others a penalty


Technically, they stack. It's a little silly, though; helpless does not necessarily imply prone, and the rules are in different places. I suspect that only one penalty is supposed to apply.

FAQing.


blahpers wrote:

Technically, they stack. It's a little silly, though; helpless does not necessarily imply prone, and the rules are in different places. I suspect that only one penalty is supposed to apply.

FAQing.

It's a bit silly in the first place - to hit a gnome, I have to hit AC 2 (or -2, if they stack!)

To hit the square the gnome is in, I have to hit AC 5.


blahpers wrote:

Technically, they stack. It's a little silly, though; helpless does not necessarily imply prone, and the rules are in different places. I suspect that only one penalty is supposed to apply.

FAQing.

Not sure you are correct in that they stack. It seems that one would overrule the other as both paragraphs are intended to be full descriptions of the helpless condition. But even if you are correct then only an EXTREMELY strict RAW reading will lead to them both applying. Any GM worth their salt will only apply one or the other.

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