so looks like you can't enchant a shield as a weapon ... bummer


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 66 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

So I came across a rules find in UE under the masterwork armor section stating you can't place an enhancement of a shield to give it a bonus to attack. Pg 15, last paragraph.

I guess if you spin it enough, you only need a masterwork item to enchant, and not a masterwork which grants a +1 to attack.


The CRB says the same thing:

Masterwork Weapons wrote:

All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic.

Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.

Bummer.


I guess you need a spiked shield and you have to enhance the spike separately then. That makes sense, but I did want a bludgeoning shield for a character I am working with. I guess asking the GM can the "spikes" be dull to keep the shield as a bludgeoning weapon might work as a houserule.

Liberty's Edge

You can enchant shield spikes.


Quote:

Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.

Wooden or Steel: Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to spells and effects.

Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Looks like you can.

Sovereign Court

Elbedor wrote:

The CRB says the same thing:

Masterwork Weapons wrote:

All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic.

Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.

Bummer.

All that is saying is that you can't make a masterwork shield that has a +1 to hit like masterwork weapons have. A masterwork shield follows the masterwork armor rules, not masterwork weapons. It doesn't have anything to do with enchanting the shield as a weapon, and as Rikkan showed, you certainly can do so.


Those quotes seem to be contradictory, but I do think there's a reading that allows them to work together. Perhaps to enchant an object it only needs to be masterwork, not masterwork in a specific way (such as as a weapon).

So you take your masterwork heavy shield (that has -1 ACP) and enchant it.

Or are there any rules that would contradict this too?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Elbedor wrote:

The CRB says the same thing:

Masterwork Weapons wrote:

All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic.

Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.

Bummer.

I think you have bolded too much text.

Masterwork Weapons wrote:

All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic.

Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.

You can't craft a shield that give a masterwork bonus to the attack roll.

But you can still make a masterwork shield that is a weapon.

Sczarni

Talon Stormwarden wrote:
Elbedor wrote:

The CRB says the same thing:

Masterwork Weapons wrote:

All magic weapons are automatically considered to be of masterwork quality. The enhancement bonus granted by the masterwork quality doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus provided by the weapon's magic.

Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.

Bummer.
All that is saying is that you can't make a masterwork shield that has a +1 to hit like masterwork weapons have. A masterwork shield follows the masterwork armor rules, not masterwork weapons. It doesn't have anything to do with enchanting the shield as a weapon, and as Rikkan showed, you certainly can do so.

Talon has the right of it. You can enchant a Shield as a weapon, but it must be a Masterwork shield and the masterwork shield does not receive a +1 enhancement to attack rolls (like a weapon), but rather it has a reduced armor check penalty (like armor).


You cannot make it masterwork as a weapon. You can make it magical as a weapon, assuming it is masterwork as a shield.

Or you can just make it masterwork as a shield, and then get this lovely feat.

PRD wrote:

Shield Master (Combat)

Your mastery of the shield allows you to fight with it without hindrance.
Prerequisites: Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus.


There's a feat that allows you to use the enhancement bonus to AC on attack and damage rolls, though (Shield Master, IIRC). Unfortunately, it only comes into play at 11th level, unless you're a Ranger. :(


I'm a little confused as to why people are responding to me as if I said you can't magically enchant a shield as a magic weapon. Where did I suggest such a thing? The OP was talking about Masterwork enhancements, not magical ones (although the title and the post actually suggest two different things). I was pointing out how the CRB was saying the same thing the UE was saying regarding masterwork enhancement bonuses. What I emboldened was the part that was similar. This was then followed by "bummer" which was a play off of what the OP had listed in the title.

Of course you can magically enchant a shield as a weapon. Rikkan was so kind as to clearly point this out with the proper text. What I'm not sure about is how people take what I post and turn that into:

"You can't magically enchant a shield as a weapon unless it has spikes."

I don't understand where that came from or what the confusion is over.


Elbedor wrote:

I'm a little confused as to why people are responding to me as if I said you can't magically enchant a shield as a magic weapon. Where did I suggest such a thing? The OP was talking about Masterwork enhancements, not magical ones (although the title and the post actually suggest two different things). I was pointing out how the CRB was saying the same thing the UE was saying regarding masterwork enhancement bonuses. What I emboldened was the part that was similar. This was then followed by "bummer" which was a play off of what the OP had listed in the title.

Of course you can magically enchant a shield as a weapon. Rikkan was so kind as to clearly point this out with the proper text. What I'm not sure about is how people take what I post and turn that into:

"You can't magically enchant a shield as a weapon unless it has spikes."

I don't understand where that came from or what the confusion is over.

The use of the word "enhance". You can not masterwork enhance anything. The item has to masterwork upon creation barring a certain spell that did not even exist when the CRB is written so it was assumed you meant magical enhancement.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

His title is literally "so looks like you can't enchant a shield as a weapon".

This is incredibility wrong.

A Shield is a weapon.

Masterwork, is not an enchantment either. It's a quality.

I have no idea what big revelation is supposed to be discovered here, or what the actual rules question is.

What's "a bummer"?

The fact that the Masterwork quality does not provide a bonus to attack for shields?

Is that the big revelation?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

His title is literally "so looks like you can't enchant a shield as a weapon".

This is incredibility wrong.

A Shield is a weapon.

Masterwork, is not an enchantment either. It's a quality.

I have no idea what big revelation is supposed to be discovered here, or what the actual rules question is.

What's "a bummer"?

The fact that the Masterwork quality does not provide a bonus to attack for shields?

Is that the big revelation?

Maybe he thought you could add a masterwork component to use it as a MW shield, and another one to use it as a MW weapon upon creation.

He has not responded so I am just guessing.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Okay.

I am just a bit confused about the inquiry here.

Sovereign Court

Yeah, I was responding to the title as much as the body of the first post. The title clearly mentions enchanting, which is a magical process. I took it at face value.


wraithstrike wrote:
The use of the word "enhance". You can not masterwork enhance anything.

Not sure where you get that from, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean. Clearly masterworking a weapon adds an enhancement bonus to it...

Masterwork Weapon wrote:
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
wraithstrike wrote:
The item has to masterwork upon creation barring a certain spell that did not even exist when the CRB is written so it was assumed you meant magical enhancement.

I agree that an item cannot be made masterwork after the fact. It must be made so during creation. I don't recall suggesting otherwise. Regarding enhancements, I was quoting "masterwork" enhancements and was agreeing with the lack of MW bonus as mentioned in the OP. I said nothing about Magic. ;)

As for the OP, regarding the discrepancy between the title and the actual post, it appears that he is thinking perhaps that because you can't get the +1 to attack Masterwork bonus on a shield that this means you cannot get the magic weapon bonuses on it as well. That's just a guess though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Masterwork, is a quality, that for most weapons, provides a +1 enhancement bonus to attack.

It is not an "enhancement" in it's self.

Also, there is a difference between "enhancement", and "enchantment".


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Masterwork, is a quality, that for most weapons, provides a +1 enhancement bonus to attack.

It is not an "enhancement" in it's self.

Also, there is a difference between "enhancement", and "enchantment".

Masterwork is a quality that provides a +1 enhancement bonus to a weapon. Not sure what the issue here is.

And I agree that Enhancement and Enchantment are two different things. I never said you can't place a Weapon Enchantment on a shield. Others have assumed I did.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I am having a hard time seeing what the issue here is as well.

What exactly is being debated?

Besides debating on what is being debated.


heh. The OP is pointing out text that is showing a +1 MW bonus on attacks cannot be given to a shield. It then assumes this might mean that magical weapon enhancements cannot be added to a shield either.

I mentioned how the text in the UE is the same as in the CRB regarding the MW issue. I said no more than this, but others misunderstood and assumed I was agreeing with the OP regarding the "can't magic a shield as a weapon" idea. I was not agreeing with this. So unless there is someone that is, there really is no debate.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Also, there is a difference between "enhancement", and "enchantment".

Damn straight:

Enhancement is a bonus type.
Enchantment is a school of magic.

It's actually surprisingly difficult to get any enchantments to work on weapons (in CRB: Antipathy, Sympathy, and the various Symbol spells).

/pedant

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Hrmm...

I've been spending +450gp for every non-Mithral, non-Buckler shield since I started Pathfinder, and for each of my PFS characters.

150gp to make it a MWK Shield
300gp to make it a MWK Weapon

It's my understanding this is required if you wish to enchant the shield as a weapon later on.

Have I been doing it wrong?

And, is it any different for Klars?

Sczarni

Nefreet wrote:

Hrmm...

I've been spending +450gp for every non-Mithral, non-Buckler shield since I started Pathfinder, and for each of my PFS characters.

150gp to make it a MWK Shield
300gp to make it a MWK Weapon

It's my understanding this is required if you wish to enchant the shield as a weapon later on.

Have I been doing it wrong?

And, is it any different for Klars?

It looks like you have been overpaying Nefreet... Your question about Klars will bring about interesting discussion; and one I'm interested in reading...


Lemmy wrote:
There's a feat that allows you to use the enhancement bonus to AC on attack and damage rolls, though (Shield Master, IIRC). Unfortunately, it only comes into play at 11th level, unless you're a Ranger. :(

Or Slayer.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Krodjin wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Hrmm...

I've been spending +450gp for every non-Mithral, non-Buckler shield since I started Pathfinder, and for each of my PFS characters.

150gp to make it a MWK Shield
300gp to make it a MWK Weapon

It's my understanding this is required if you wish to enchant the shield as a weapon later on.

Have I been doing it wrong?

And, is it any different for Klars?

It looks like you have been overpaying Nefreet... Your question about Klars will bring about interesting discussion; and one I'm interested in reading...

Can someone explain why you don't need to pay the +300gp?


Because items don't have multiple mw qualities. Th crb quote from earlier says "you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls" your mw shield gives no bonus to attack.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

...

That makes no sense.

If I make a Mithral light shield, I don't get the +1 to-hit?

And, regardless of whether or not that's true, you still need the +300gp to enchant it as a weapon later, correct?


Nefreet wrote:

...

That makes no sense.

If I make a Mithral light shield, I don't get the +1 to-hit?

It makes perfect sense. Masterwork Armor and Shields are made to reduce encumbrance and restricting of movement (ACP), not for combat.

Nefreet wrote:
And, regardless of whether or not that's true, you still need the +300gp to enchant it as a weapon later, correct?

Why would this be the case? Adding enhancements and special properties only calls out that they need to be Masterwork. It is Masterwork.

You can't "re-Masterwork it", it is just Masterwork. Its Masterwork quality does not affect its attack rolls, but it's still Masterwork.


Nefreet wrote:

...

That makes no sense.

If I make a Mithral light shield, I don't get the +1 to-hit?

And, regardless of whether or not that's true, you still need the +300gp to enchant it as a weapon later, correct?

1. Correct.

2. Incorrect.

Basically, there is just the "masterwork" property - there is no separate property of masterwork for weapons and armor.

There is just masterwork.
A masterwork armor or shield has -1 ACP.
A masterwork non-shield weapon has +1 AB.
A masterwork tool has +2 circumstance bonus.

To enchant an object the object must be masterwork. Enchantments are different depending on if it is a weapon enchantment and shield enchantment and you can enchant a shield as weapon.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Alright. I won't argue about spending less money.

But what about Klars?


Enhancement
Enchantment

Two different words. The thing about masterwork armor/shield enhancements does not apply to enchantments.


Nefreet wrote:

Alright. I won't argue about spending less money.

But what about Klars?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/klar

As I see it, it's a light shield with armor spikes, and would be masterworked separately. I agree that it's vague though, and up to the GM.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The problem I've always encountered, though, is that unlike a MWK Shield with MWK Spikes, the Klar is one item.

You can't make it out of multiple materials, for example, and it's lighter than any shield+spikes weight combination found in any book.

Admittedly the existence of the Klar is what led me to believe you needed to pay +450gp if you wanted a MWK Shield/MWK Weapon.

So, if I want a MWK Klar, and all I pay is +150gp, since it's a shield, do I get the +1 to-hit?

Yes, a Klar is listed as both a weapon and a shield, but so are regular shields.


I think by the strictest reading of the rule, there are two possible interpretations:
1. A klar is one object, but it is treated as two different objects in terms of being weapon/armor, and you need to masterwork and enchant them separately.
2. A klar is a shield, thus the shield rules apply; a masterwork klar costs +150 gp, and has -1 ACP, and can be enchanted as a weapon and/or shield.


Craft Magic Arms and Armor wrote:

You can create magic weapons, armor, or shields. Enhancing a weapon, suit of armor, or shield takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in the price of its magical features. To enhance a weapon, suit of armor, or shield, you must use up raw materials costing half of this total price.

The weapon, armor, or shield to be enhanced must be a masterwork item that you provide. Its cost is not included in the above cost.

It never says it must be "masterwork as a weapon" or anything.


Elbedor wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
The use of the word "enhance". You can not masterwork enhance anything.

Not sure where you get that from, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean. Clearly masterworking a weapon adds an enhancement bonus to it...

Masterwork Weapon wrote:
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

I know that rule. I am saying once the item is created you can not make it into a masterwork item. You must do it while crafting it.


I always thought that you paid for the shield's enhancement bonus as a shield and not a weapon. If you want to apply weapon qualities to it, you can, since it says you can. Why pay for the masterwork weapon component when you can't even apply it to your attacks?

CRB wrote:
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ilja wrote:

I think by the strictest reading of the rule, there are two possible interpretations:

1. A klar is one object, but it is treated as two different objects in terms of being weapon/armor, and you need to masterwork and enchant them separately.
2. A klar is a shield, thus the shield rules apply; a masterwork klar costs +150 gp, and has -1 ACP, and can be enchanted as a weapon and/or shield.

Given the arguments here about shields, I think #1 is out the door.

A Heavy Shield is also one object, yet it has a place on both the Weapons table in the CRB and the Armor table. A Klar is no different.

Which sucks for not having that +1 to-hit, but boy does it make it cheaper.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Now, as I recall, you still need the +300 for Masterwork Shield Spikes.

Neat thing about Shield Spikes, is they can be a different material than the shield.

So, you could have a Mithral Heavy Shield, with Adamantine Shield Spikes.


wraithstrike wrote:
Elbedor wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
The use of the word "enhance". You can not masterwork enhance anything.

Not sure where you get that from, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean. Clearly masterworking a weapon adds an enhancement bonus to it...

Masterwork Weapon wrote:
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
I know that rule. I am saying once the item is created you can not make it into a masterwork item. You must do it while crafting it.

Except now there's Masterwork Transformation.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Now, as I recall, you still need the +300 for Masterwork Shield Spikes.

Neat thing about Shield Spikes, is they can be a different material than the shield.

So, you could have a Mithral Heavy Shield, with Adamantine Shield Spikes.

YMMW on that. I see nothing in the rules to indicate that the spikes and the shield are separate items. I've always run shield spikes as a modification to the shield, making it the same item. If it's one item, you can't make it out of two separate materials.


Nefreet wrote:

Given the arguments here about shields, I think #1 is out the door.

A Heavy Shield is also one object, yet it has a place on both the Weapons table in the CRB and the Armor table. A Klar is no different.

Which sucks for not having that +1 to-hit, but boy does it make it cheaper.

The difference is that a heavy shield states it can be used as a weapon.

A klar literally states that it is "a light wooden shield with armor spikes.". Armor spikes are non-shield weapons and separate objects.

So it's not so much that both have lines in the weapons table, as that the description of the klar states that it is a light shield with armor spikes. If it is treated as a light shield with armor spikes (as the rules say), it is masterworked separately because it essentially is two objects.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

The plot thickens!

For the record, Shield Spikes are listed separately, with their own weight and cost. You're actually the first person that I've ever seen saying "YMMV" on that.

It's written in black and white.

It's Klars that get confusing.

(this wasn't a reply to Ilja)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Robert A Matthews wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Now, as I recall, you still need the +300 for Masterwork Shield Spikes.

Neat thing about Shield Spikes, is they can be a different material than the shield.

So, you could have a Mithral Heavy Shield, with Adamantine Shield Spikes.

YMMW on that. I see nothing in the rules to indicate that the spikes and the shield are separate items. I've always run shield spikes as a modification to the shield, making it the same item. If it's one item, you can't make it out of two separate materials.

Um, would you disallow Mithral Fullplate, with Adamantine Armor Spikes?


Nefreet wrote:

The plot thickens!

For the record, Shield Spikes are listed separately, with their own weight and cost. You're actually the first person that I've ever seen saying "YMMV" on that.

It's written in black and white.

It's Klars that get confusing.

(this wasn't a reply to Ilja)

Actually according to the prd ultimate equipment also lists 'spiked light shield' and 'spiked heavy shield' same as a Klar. I just assume UE is a confusingly written book and just assume klars work exactly the same as a light shield with armour spikes.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Another problem is that Armor Spikes weigh 10 lbs.

A Klar weighs 6 lbs.

Even if you discount the Klar entry as a typo that meant to say Shield Spikes, they still weigh 5 lbs.

That means the shield part of the Klar weighs 1 lb.

That's officially the lightest shield on record.

Or, if you go in reverse, a light wooden shield weighs 5 lbs, and a light steel shield weighs 6 lbs.

Yet Klars can be made out of wood or steel, and weigh the same regardless.

How much weight does that leave for the spikes?

1 lb? Zero lbs?

Since normally spikes and shield can be made of different materials, how would you factor the price of a wooden/steel/bone/whatever Klar with Mithral spikes?

With this explanation that a single item can only be made MWK once (which I'm still not reading anywhere in the book, but it sounds like I'm the only one unfamiliar with this, so I'll leave it), I don't see how anyone can argue that you'd still have to pay the MWK cost for a Klar twice.

Or is there something else I'm missing?


I'm not sure if it's relevant, but here's what it generally looks like. On a more related note, it does have a blade at the bottom...I'm guessing that's what you make attacks with?

If it's 6 pounds, I'd have to say it's about 2 of each; 2 lbs of shield, 2 pounds of spikes, and 2 pounds of stabby goodness, all rolled up into one.


Does anyone have a book example of a shield being enchsnted seperate as a weapon? Usually its shield spikes that get enchanted.

1 to 50 of 66 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / so looks like you can't enchant a shield as a weapon ... bummer All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.