I've been looking around to find some help on explaining, how the spell Virtue can be used to anything useful? At lower levels 1hp means to some degree a deal. But past level 3 or so, that 1 single HP is not worth spending that standard action on (or atleast I fail to see why).
Furthermore, this spell is also on the paladins level 1 spells. Why? How could this spell be better than Cure Light Wounds?
So Im hoping that I'll either be able to get some input on how it could be useful compared to many of the other orisons (and especially worth a lvl 1 spell for the paladin), or some ideas/house rules on a better version.
Some of the ideas there came to mind, which might work compared to other ideas I had:
Wisdom Bonus: Instead of simply gaining a +1 bonus, you gain a bonus equal to the casters Wisdom Modifier.
Pros: It can scale with level
Cons:It can scale with level, and orisons/cantrips power don't scale with level which makes it seem VERY useful for a level 0. Although, those +5 on lvl 12+ won't do much.
Bonus to Stabilize: Grants a bonus of +x to stabelizing checks for the reciever.
Pros: Becomes more usefull.
Cons: There is already a orison that can stabilize a character at a distance and a spell that gives a bonus to saves.
In many instances, removing a single hp of damage is much the same as adding a temp hp. However, with the cure minor wounds from 3.5, which was a healing spell that cured 1 hp, as an orison, you could heal one hp every round until everyone was healed between every battle. To avoid this, they put it in as a temp hp bonus instead, which doesn't stack.
As you say, it's not super useful. However, there are instances when you prefer an extra hp to curing one, such as when you expect to take some bigger amount of damage at once. Mostly, I think it's there because it makes sense a cleric should be able to do this.
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Both Virtue and Cure Minor Wounds was around in 3.5, with Stabilize replacing the later in Pf to prevent infinite healing, as Sissyl said.
Virtue is actually semi-useful in PF (as opposed to 3.5!) since it lasts a full minute. If you know there is a goblin waiting for you around the corner, the cleric can easily give everyone 1 extra hp before the fight.
It is also decent to have around for RP reasons - it's the minor blessing you bestow upon a commoner for his minor aid or as courtesy. It doesn't cost you anything and he/she will feel a bit better for a short while ^^
Your right Lessah. In 3.5 Virtue was there and it did the same. And back then, it still didn't make sense to choose. I don't recal that gaining 1 temp. hp stops you from bleeding out since its not healing. But cure minor wounds would. So it was still a better choice..
And as you and I mentioned, that 1 hp could work against a lower CR opponents if you know its coming within a minute, but as are as I feel, it becomes useless against the higher CR beasties.
I could see it working as a minor blessing you could give to someone just as a RP thing which fits orisons perfectly, but its a blessing thats very short lived and Resistance is a much more fitting blessing, which will, for example, help the poor farmer resist fatigue when working.. Within a minute of course :P
As far as the paladin goes, the problem is simply that paladins (and rangers) don't get orisons. IMHO they should, so IMC they do, and Virtue is one of them.
A 1st level cleric IMC used Virtue quite a bit, but it rapidly became obsolete. Examples included getting rid of the itching from a Goblin Dog (reapply frequently) and buffing the party before wading through a freezing river (which did 1d3 nonlethal).
If you want to upgrade it, you might allow it to apply to 1 character per 3 levels (rounded up), range touch. Still feeble, but not quite so useless as you don't spend so long buffing.
in one of my earlier campaigns, my characters dropped an enemy and but wanted to ask he questions. so they because he was, i allow ed them to wake him up with water, but he still may have died, or pass out again if he took dmg(failing a con. check as he was below 0) they used virtue to keep him from falling unconcious, with the treat of not casting the spell next round and have him bleed to death/left for dead.
now as long has he doesn't think/call the bluff(if all good). and they were able to talk to him, and then left him to die, as he did almost drop the PCs.
thoughts on this usage of virtue?
btw is there a rule preventing waking someone up below 0 hp, for a round?
|Mistah J RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8|
I would say that it pauses the bleeding; when the virtue wears off, it starts again. So get out the Healing kit in the meantime.
And re Abrir's use of the spell: yes, I'd say that's OK: the subject doesn't take damage from exertion, so bleeding doesn't restart. Just remember to cast it again before he does something else strenuous.
Not bad. It is still weak as its meant to be, but is actually greatfully more useful. I would however maybe say that it should be every second level.
But I could really see there being a higher level of this. Would fit very well.. Actually, even a higher level version of first Virtue could also work.. Why didn't they make that? It would fir very well with the cleric.
On the Virtue Questions
Abrir: if they did it riiight before the spell runs out, they can. As mentioned before, just because the hp is lost, doesn't mean that the spell ends. So casting it on him, then Knock him around, and then cast it again wouldn't do anything. But as Mudfoot said, it would keep him from taking futher damage from exertion.
But this would actually be a situation where I could see Virtue work in some situations. Stabelizing a making a character active (has 1 hp) for a short while. It would allow wounded soldiers to move from spot A to spot B and get some help... With some extra castsnof Virtue offcourse depending on distance..
Mistah J: I would say no. Virtue is not a healing effect, so it doesn't close any wounds. It just reinvigorates the target.
How about Virtue filles the target with confidence and inspiration by the fact that he has recieved the gods blessing. This grants a +1 bonus on the next Proffession check to earn money.
To gain the effect, the target doesn't have to Worship the deity, but must atleast belive and accept the deity as one of the gods that affect his life.
Its not that powerful since its "effect" is very small and can first be seen after a weeks of work and it will be great for RP since it actually does something for a community.
[b]IdeaHow about Virtue filles the target with confidence and inspiration by the fact that he has recieved the gods blessing. This grants a +1 bonus on the next Proffession check to earn money.
Effectively, that's Guidance with a longer duration but a tighter focus. Just cast Guidance instead; it's still an orison on probably the same spell list, so what you call it doesn't matter.
True, guidance also adds to skill checks. However, to me that feels wierd. The spell last 1 minute or til used. So having it work with proffesion cheacks means it lasts much longer than a week. And its not because the cleric needs to be there to cast it again.
The bonfire or other danger, which doesn't do a whole lot of damage, is actually a good example of where the spell could be of some help. However, it is still only 1 hp. And to me, it is still not nearly at the level of usefulness as the other orisons.
I've been thinking about increasing the HP bonus as well. And as you mention, the other 0th level spells work around the d3, except for the touch spells which deal d6.
Personally I think they should have left the cure minor wound orison in the game but include a limitation of being able to heal a maximum of 4 hit points per day to the same character. Virtue is just a bad spell. Compared to Resistance, Detect Magic, Create Water, or Light it is a horrible spell.
Gunsmith Paladin: I just want it to be a more useful spell. That might mean making it better, but as you mentioned, it might make it to good compared to the others.
Goth Guru: Better. Especially if the boost lasts until used or a day/longer than a minute. But still, that 1 extra HP isn't gona do much on higher level.
Jesterle: Been thinking in the same line as well at some point. However, if it becomes a healing spell which would make Stabilize obsolete since healing also Stabilizes people... Doesn't it? I seem to recall this..
Just make stabilize work at close range.
Minor talismans are minor miscellaneous magic items. Priced and made more like potions, they occupy no slot, and go off when needed. There was a feather fall talisman in Ebberon that went off when you fell more than 10 feet, well worth 100 gp. in a city that floats.
I am toying with the idea of allowing 0s to work like minor blessings and extending the effect to last a day, refreshing each round. So every round the Virtue would refresh on the cleric and he would gain a temp hit point, stretching out his hp.
Like I said...toying with the idea.
|Zog of Deadwood|
Well, maybe it could have one of two effects, chosen at casting:
1) grant 1 temporary hit point, as per current effect
2) allow caster to select 1, 2, 3, or 4 dice of the next single healing spell, healing channel, or lay on hands effect used in the next minute and roll them twice, taking the better roll.
The second option would allow out of combat healing to work significantly better, but not beyond current maximums and would not generally be possible more than once (at most) if used in any given combat.
Ok here are my super rough ideas on the Core Orisons and allowing them to be treated as a permanent blessing effect on the cleric.
Most Clerics have 4 orisons so they could have 4 of these blessing on any giving day. (Making them semi- permanent like this may mean they may need to be knocked down to 1 or 2)
Bleed - enemies within 30' cannot stabilize. (Suppressible), can target as normal
Create Water - Water skins fill up within 30' of caster, can be focused to create water as normal
Detect Magic - as normal, casters can always cast this spell, it takes no slot
Guidance - as normal, but refreshes at the end of the clerics round.
Light - cleric's aura illuminates the space around him (Suppressible), can be used as normal on other objects
Mending - objects within 30' of caster slowly repair themselves.
Purify food and drink - all food within range of spell is constantly affected.
Read Magic - as normal, casters can always cast this spell, it takes no slot
Resistance - as spell, always up.
Stabilize - allies within 30' auto stabilize. (Suppressible), can target as normal
Virtue - Temporary hp refreshes at the end of clerics turn each round.
I think to allow a cleric to cast on others I would allow them to cast as normal, and let the spell work as normal, but not have the auto refresh that the cleric gets.