Among my friends, feelings are mixed about the Oracle class. But among those who like it, I've found that the same Mysteries tend to be brought up: Life, Ancestor, Battle, and maybe Bones. But what are the *worst*, or, to put it nicely, "more challenging" Oracle Mysteries, in your opinion?
To get things started, I'm going to say Flame. Why Flame? Because:
- Revelations are centered on blasting, but it has no mage armor-like revelation to enable a more magey build (unlike, say, Bones or Wind), nor does it have a way of substituting Charisma for Dex in your combat stats to encourage melee builds(unlike, say, Lore or Nature)
- Burning Magic is objectively worse than Bleeding wounds, because it only works for spells that have saving throws, and only works if they fail their saving throw, and even if it *does* work it only lasts for a maximum of 1d4 rounds. Bleeding Wounds, a Bones revelation, does damage until they either get some healing, or succeed at a DC 15 Heal check (something most NPC enemies will be unable to do). Likewise, Burning Magic can be escaped with a simple Reflex save by merely expending a Move Action (the heal check to remove Bleeding Wounds is a Standard)
- None of its abilities have synergy. Again, a Bones Oracle can activate Bleeding Wounds using one of their abilities, Death's Touch. None of the Flame Oracle's abilities can activate Burning Magic, even if they offer a saving throw, because the ability only works with spells.
- Molten Skin is incredibly stingy, considering that Flame Oracles already get Resist Energy as a bonus spell. Worse yet, it doesn't stack with Resist Energy, so it's more or less useless. This is actually the Flame Oracle's biggest issue: too many filler Revelations (Gaze of Flames, Cinder Dance, I'm looking at you)
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I found Time lackluster.
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I disagree about flame. I have recently been inspired to create an oracle of flame and posted it's progress here.
Seems anything but weak to me.
Lunar, Stone and Juju seem rather weak but they each have strong revelations depending on what you want to do. Honestly, none of them seem particularly weak. The oracle mysteries are all actually quite cool. In fact, they allow several character themes to be built far better than other classes which seem naturally more suited to the theme (I am looking at you, druids).
Yes, burning spell needs some synergy with the abilities the flame oracle gets. But you don't need it to. Mayhem, if you followed the link, is not optimized for damage and does plenty of the stuff regardless (among other things). In fact, I think that a properly built flame oracle can be devastating and thematic.
I think the big thing about the mysteries is to locate the few things you want to do and capitalize on them. Stone, for example, is great for a Fighter/Oracle, allowing some battlefield control while charging in.
And Gaze of Flames and Cinder Dance are awesome for a tweak on the "Mist Assassin", originally a deaf Waves Oracle/Ninja who specialized in Obscuring Mist, Silence, and Sneak Attack to remain invisible to a target who can't do much of anything. I mean, Travel is one of the most popular domains, why wouldn't Cinder Dance be welcome?
I once played a Merfolk Flame Oracle. Cinder Dance was how getting around on land was possible.
I find time the worst mystery. I couldn't find anything on it particularly good.
That said, I could be wrong! Can someone enlighten me on this one?
I have to agree when it comes to Time. Lackluster as far as I can tell. :/
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I love Wood!
An Aasimar Wood Oracle can take Tree Shape and accelerate to Plant Shape I using the favoured class bonus at level 6, 2 levels earlier than a Druid can Wildshape and 3 levels faster than anyone can cast it.
Bestiary 4 has given us the Weedwhip - 3 attacks with 15ft reach all of which have Poison: Tentacle—contact; save Fort DC XX; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect nauseated 1 round; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is YOUR Constitution-based. Thats awesome.
Plus Wood Armour, Wood Bond,
Lignification. All good.
Lunar is crazily good. They get a full strength animal companion and can dump dex and run initiative, AC and reflex all off charisma. Touch of the Moon makes you an extremely dangerous bad touch caster, confusion is an exceptionally powerful debuff. Adding it to mass inflict spells can wreck encounters. Eyes of the Moon is great as human and half elves don't get darkvision and free, if limited, true seeing is excellent. Form of the Beast makes for some useful stealth options and if you pick deaf as your curse you are only one feat away from virtual natural spell.
Gift of Claw and Horn is probably the best way to get a gore attack for a PC that early. Dip one level into White Haired Witch as a Tiefling or a Tengu and you have five natural attacks at level 5. That's more attacks in a full round than a full martial has at level 20, and they're all coming at full BAB. And that's just silly.
I really like the Lunar mystery
I disagree about flame. I have recently been inspired to create an oracle of flame and posted it's progress here.
Seems anything but weak to me.
Lunar, Stone and Juju seem rather weak but they each have strong revelations depending on what you want to do. Honestly, none of them seem particularly weak. The oracle mysteries are all actually quite cool. In fact, they allow several character themes to be built far better than other classes which seem naturally more suited to the theme (I am looking at you, druids).
Yes, burning spell needs some synergy with the abilities the flame oracle gets. But you don't need it to. Mayhem, if you followed the link, is not optimized for damage and does plenty of the stuff regardless (among other things). In fact, I think that a properly built flame oracle can be devastating and thematic.
I firmly agree that each of the Oracle Mysteries are *cool*, I'm just talking about mechanical superiority here. Flame gets the short end of the stick in my opinion. Compare Burning Spell to Freezing Spells, for example. I think your build is great, but it's as much of a Sorcerer as it is a Flame Oracle, to be fair.
Stone is fine, IMO, and much better than Flame. Seeing through stone has far more utility than seeing through smoke (dungeon scouting is no joke), and the ability to create difficult terrain on command can create some very interesting tactical scenarios. Add in the ability to damage weapons that strike you, resist bull rush/trip attempts, and create free trip attempts for yourself, and you have the basis of a pretty nice frontline fighter who can back up your capital-F Fighter and throw in some heals when needed.
Juju is complicated, as it depends on which version we're talking about. Lunar has already been defended.
Flame is a decent Oracle Mystery with the advent of dazing spell. Fireball and Wall of Fire are both excellent choices for it. The elemental transformation is an excellent revelation as are Gaze of Flames and Cinder Dance. People routinely dip a level of cleric just for the 10' move boost from the Travel Domain. Cinder Dance gives you that and more. For a class which is likely in slowing medium or heavy armour that is very useful. Gaze of Flames sets up all sorts of options with various cloud spells.
Many of the rest are a bit dubious. Fire Resistance isn't bad as it is a common element. Wings of Flame saves you room having to pick up Air Walk for a while.
I consider Wood as one of the worst mysteries. You get one decent spell with Barkskin, the rest are pretty much awful. The revelations are all awful except maybe Lignification. Wood Bond might have been OK if you had the feats spare to invest in archery.
Dazing spell is nice, but it's better with a Wizard or Sorcerer than it is with a Flame Oracle. The problem with the Mystery is that it has no focus; it's a little blasty, but not blasty enough to hang with an offensively-focused Sorcerer or Wizard. It doesn't have the tools to be relevant in the mid-line, where Divine Casters usually hang out.
Wood has a similar problem, as it's too focused on the "theme" of Wood, without really committing to a role. You could make an interesting character out of a Wood Oracle, but you'd be poorly optimized for PFS.
As for the questions about Time Oracles...Erase from Time is a useful bit of crowd control for anyone with a weak Fort save (so, casters basically...), and it comes at a point where casters will be some of the toughest challenges for the group. Re-rolls are nice, as is a free Haste/Slow. There are more fun options for a Support Oracle (Life, for example). Time has some good options, the main weakness is that the level requirements for most of its Revelations leave you with few options from 1-7.
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I find time the worst mystery. I couldn't find anything on it particularly good.
That said, I could be wrong! Can someone enlighten me on this one?
time has one ok ability, the ability to blink someone out of exsistance
Erase from Time, it can be used offensively or defensively.
if you can play him to 11 then time sight is really good.
Given the lack of anything positive said about it on the boards...I would guess Outer Rifts ?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Waves is only useful in a heavily water-based campaign, such as Skulls & Shackles.
Waves is only useful in a heavily water-based campaign, such as Skulls & Shackles.
Not true. Fluid Travel is pretty much the only Revelation that "requires" a water-based campaign, and even then the ability to walk on Acid without damage can be useful in a land-locked campaign. As for the Bonus spells, Slipstream works on dry land, so it's really just Touch of the Sea and Water Breathing that become useless in a desert campaign.
Wood is actually really really good if you only take one level, because you can get wood shape which counts for early entry mystic theurge!
I don't think having a Spell-Like Ability that "functions like" a 2nd level spell counts as "being able to cast 2nd level Divine spells" for the purposes of qualifying for a Prestige Class.
Wood is actually really really good if you only take one level, because you can get wood shape which counts for early entry mystic theurge!I don't think having a Spell-Like Ability that "functions like" a 2nd level spell counts as "being able to cast 2nd level Divine spells" for the purposes of qualifying for a Prestige Class.
Neither did we, until Paizo came out and explicitly allowed it.
Neither did we, until Paizo came out and explicitly allowed it.Wood is actually really really good if you only take one level, because you can get wood shape which counts for early entry mystic theurge!I don't think having a Spell-Like Ability that "functions like" a 2nd level spell counts as "being able to cast 2nd level Divine spells" for the purposes of qualifying for a Prestige Class.
Wow, really? I checked the FAQ and couldn't find it, but I'll take your word for it. So many weird rulings lately.
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You might be right, Outer Rifts may be the weakest, but barely. Planar Haze is wonderful battlefield control, Demon Hide is useful, Balefire eventually is solid, though limited in uses per day, while Dread Resistance and Rift Magic are just awesome and will almost always be relevant once you get them.
As far as the flame mystery goes, sure, burning hands, resist energy, fireball and wall of fire just let you pretend to be a blasting sorceror.
But the sorceror can't cinder dance, doesn't get form of flame or wings of fire (which is a swift action to activate). Firestorm is ridiculous and will burn through resistance while blocking vision, done in a dungeon, that is death for enemies who don't have flame gaze or a way to make the concetration check to cast dimension door or whatever. Gaze of flame is too useful. No, it doesn't compete with looking through stone but it can be used in very surprising ways and is mobile. Furthermore, a sorceror can't use their damage dealing spells as battlefield control in the same manner.
Burning magic is OK. But 1d4 rounds of spell level in damage just as good (slightly better) than a metamagic feat. In essence, unlike a sorceror, you get two burning effects instead of one. Against enemy casters, this should help in breaking their concentration, though it is not likely except on higher level spells. The DC for a double burning fireball is only 14+spell level of the spell they are trying to cast. But it is A free 9+ damage on top of a chance to break concentration.
And sorceror ccan't heal or remove negative status ailments. They also don't have 3/4 bab, d8 HD, get to wear armor and use shields, or have 4+int mod in skills per level. The flame oracle is a different beast than a sorceror, entirely. But mechanically weakest? Hmmm. Fire resistance is common because fire effects are prevalent and dangerous...and the more ubiquitous a resistance is, the more necessary it may actually be.
If flame is the weakest, it isn't by much. It just has so many uses that don't even require blasting (but it mostly just blasts) :).
I love Wood!
An Aasimar Wood Oracle can take Tree Shape and accelerate to Plant Shape I using the favoured class bonus at level 6, 2 levels earlier than a Druid can Wildshape and 3 levels faster than anyone can cast it.
Bestiary 4 has given us the Weedwhip - 3 attacks with 15ft reach all of which have Poison: Tentacle—contact; save Fort DC XX; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect nauseated 1 round; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is YOUR Constitution-based. Thats awesome.
Plus Wood Armour, Wood Bond,
Lignification. All good.
Just remember you have yo actually have the revelation before using the favored class bonus.
Time is one of the best ones, and Battle is very good for a melee-oriented Oracle...
As for worst... The only reason Heavens isn't the worst is because of the revelation that makes Color Spray remain insta-death through at least 8th level. Life is bad just by covering a bad specialty, though adding little to make it more interesting / less annoying certainly doesn't help. It just seems so inferior to a Restoration domain cleric, to boot. Outer Rifts also seems to have few redeeming qualities.... it gets Telepathy ~4 levels after an Improved Familiar could've gotten it and at level 15 it can do an AoE stun/stagger 2/day on foes not immune to fire (again, this is level 15+). That's...about it.
I'm not saying it's a terrible mystery, but Lore has got to be the most over-rated one.
Time get bonus points 'cause it gives you UMD on a Charisma-primary class. :)
To get things started, I'm going to say Flame. Why Flame? Because:
- Revelations are centered on blasting, but it has no mage armor-like revelation to enable a more magey build (unlike, say, Bones or Wind), nor does it have a way of substituting Charisma for Dex in your combat stats to encourage melee builds(unlike, say, Lore or Nature)
Maybe it is not more "magey"..because its an oracle. Its not intended to DO the same things a wizard or any other class does.
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Does an oracle *need* a mage-armor like revelation when they can just wear armor?
I think Wood is a decent mystery. Elf Wood Oracle with a Longbow. Use your wood revelations with that wooden weapon and buff yourself.
Waves seems like it'd be useful as well. Seems like you could grab Water Sight and then use Obscuring Mist or something similar to your advantage.
I'd go with Outer Rifts for being worst... though I, like StreamOfTheSky, find Heavens to be a bit 'meh' overall with the only thing making it an amazing Mystery is the Color Spray of Doom revelation.
Spell scar.. just saying.. not that great...
Spell scar.. just saying.. not that great...
AAHHH....WHY ?
Sorry....just been creating a Spellscarred Oracle for WotR :(
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Spellscar is, in my opinion, more towards a defensive-based oracle. Here are a few snippits of it:
Eldritch Resistance - Gives resist acid, cold, electricity, fire, and even sonic, a resistance that is not often seen. This resistance increases to 5 at 5th level, 10 at 11th level, and 20 at 17th level.
Magic Penetration - Helps out when affected by a magic effect, or trying to dispel magic. This is far and few between to help out your caster level checks for dispelling.
Mystic Null - Its like you are a dwarf, or if a dwarf, a super-dwarf. Increases your saves against spells and SLA. Later on, adds supernatural abilities.
Spell Resistance - SR is SR, though it may be small, at level 20, you are at SR 25. Versus a 20th level caster, 1/4 chance for spells to not fail. I understand that this may seem bad, but it can be up in the air.
If using a Dwarf with Steel Soul, you can set up to become some kind of anti-caster class.
If you are an Aasimar, you can push the Eldritch Resistance from Level 1 to obtain Resist 20 at level 12.
As for the Primal Events, its like Rod of Wonder 2.0 (though you can trigger a 'Rod of Wonder' effect in it). Your choice if you like it or not.
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Lot of people saying JuJu is weak, and I SORT OF agree with you but for one thing...Spirit Vessels makes the ENTIRE CLASS.
If you're a Necromancer Spirit Vessels is the freakin' bomb. You won't be taking Extra Revelations any time soon, no, but it's solid just for that one alone as a Necromancer.
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Ever since I have begun making Mayhem, I have fallen in love with the class. Oracles are just soooo neat. Excellent amounts of flavor, built in combat chassis with spell casting and spell like abilities. They are fine on their own or fine multiclassed. You always want to keep progressing as an oracle yet can constantly feel the allure of adding another class. Seeing the various abilities in the mysteries makes me wish there was a way to get two sets of mysteries. But that would be broken. :(
Great class and no matter which mystery I review, they all have a lot of utility and uniqueness going for them. Rarely is a class done this well. Can't wait to give one a test run come tomorrow.
Just remember you have yo actually have the revelation before using the favored class bonus.I love Wood!
An Aasimar Wood Oracle can take Tree Shape and accelerate to Plant Shape I using the favoured class bonus at level 6, 2 levels earlier than a Druid can Wildshape and 3 levels faster than anyone can cast it.
Bestiary 4 has given us the Weedwhip - 3 attacks with 15ft reach all of which have Poison: Tentacle—contact; save Fort DC XX; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect nauseated 1 round; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is YOUR Constitution-based. Thats awesome.
Plus Wood Armour, Wood Bond,
Lignification. All good.
Yes, do the math.
Plus one half at level 3,4,5 and 6 is plus 2 whole levels right. So at level 6 you're actually level 8 and so qualify for plant shape I which you get at level 7. The level before you're only 6 and a half.
Old juju was excellent and wonderful flavor! New juju is super trash, and I am glad most people I know ignore the new jujuLot of people saying JuJu is weak, and I SORT OF agree with you but for one thing...Spirit Vessels makes the ENTIRE CLASS.
If you're a Necromancer Spirit Vessels is the freakin' bomb. You won't be taking Extra Revelations any time soon, no, but it's solid just for that one alone as a Necromancer.
They're separate Mysteries, I see no reason to mention the new one.
Time has pretty terrible low level spells and a bit too many high cost / extremely uncommonly used spells, but that's its only weakness. The class skills are good, and it has a many and varied great revelations. In rough order of the best ones to the worst ones:
Time Sight: It's the three best high level divination spells (including True Seeing, which normally has a high cost to cast) all in one revelation! What's not to love?
Rewind Time: Rerolling d20's is always a nice power to have, and this gets a few uses/day.
Time Hop: Su Teleport means instant grapple escape, and move action and lack of "this works like Dim Door" text means you can even get a spell off after using it! (unlike Sudden Shift of Wizards). Plus countless other situational uses like getting to the other side of a gate to open it for the party (or just take them with you if you can).
Time Flicker: Getting un-dispellable Blur and Blink as defensive options is a nice boon.
Speed or Slow Time: Haste is one of the best spell effects, and not on the Oracle list (Blessing of Fervor is worse for melee and better for casters).
Knowledge of Ages: Reroll a knowledge and add charisma on top of int, with cha uses/day. Practically makes you a "Lore Oracle," too.
Erase from Time: It's similar to Time Hop, one of the best psionic powers (not the revelation above). Divide and conquer enemies by sending one away for a bit, or use it an ally to get them out of danger (useful to save a defenseless NPC in an "escort mission" and such) or simply to buy some time to finish a fight and get the spell they need to cure some rapidly afflicting condition ready (since it pauses time for the target). Shame it's only 2/day and doesn't work on objects, though.
Aging Touch: Not that great, but useful vs. constructs and decent enough in most situations to justify picking it up...eventually.
Momentary Glimpse: It's a standard for a small bonus for one round. But it's still useful occasionally if you get a surprise or prep round before combat starts. I wouldn't take it, but I'm sure other people would.
...Did you notice how Time doesn't even actually have any outright bad revelations (except maybe Momentary Glimpse)? It's hard to honestly say that about any other mystery. And it's not like it avoids bad options be being completely mediocre. The first several listed are among the best revelations of ANY mystery.
Oracle mysteries are a very mixed bag. Some have great spell lists but poor revelations, some the exact opposite. Very few have consistently good selections of both bonus spells and revelations.
I'm sorely tempted to try an Elf Ancient Lorekeeper to get around the obstancle of weak spell lists. True, you cast your chosen spells in a slot one higher than normal but you get to cherry-pick anything on the Wizard spell lists. It just needs to be paired up with the right revelations to make it extra cheesy.
I'd say Occult is pretty lackluster. It gets early access to a few divination spells, but that advantage evens out as the levels go up. Only other things to really note are Spirit Walk and Project Psyche (both fun, but 11th level minimum for both of them means you're going to have to go through half of your levels before getting a decent revelation), and the final revelation (immunity to death effects, and the guarantee of rising as a ghost after death are both neat, but they're limited by being capstone abilities that most oracles will never reach).
The bonus spells are almost all divination, of which I would say having one or two is great, but having a bunch of spells that all basically do the same thing is less-so.
The class skills are good. Very good, actually. That's not exactly the most important part of a mystery though.
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Aging Touch: Not that great, but useful vs. constructs and decent enough in most situations to justify picking it up...eventually
aging touch is one of my favorite abilities of this mystery. its only one use per day, but has no saving throw. its a martial killer, and can even help take a caster down by making them encumbered if they are in armor.
my only issue is that its a once per day ability.
Ageing Touch and the Nature mystery equivalent, Erosion Touch, offer a couple of interesting options. Firstly you've got a neat melee sunder as a touch attack, secondly you can use it to sunder doors, walls, locks or anything else that gets in your way. Who cares about Hardness?
Life is bad just by covering a bad specialty, though adding little to make it more interesting / less annoying certainly doesn't help. It just seems so inferior to a Restoration domain cleric, to boot.
Uhm... Life Oracles are simply incredible.
Life link opens the door to truly maximize the healing efficiency, and they have a near inexhaustible supply of cures. They do healing right, non-action in combat continuous heals, aoe heals, huge battery of spells.
Fey foundling is what truly sets the life oracle into OP healer mode. The synergy of taking everyone else's damage unto yourself and then very, very efficiently healing that damage makes them a very unique and capable healer with very strong staying power.
The only questionable mystery spell is the first one, all the rest are go-to healer type staples. They even get neutralize poison early.
And, what really gets crazy if you use Elf or Aasimar FCB to bump your Channel level. No one can AOE heal like an Oracle of Life who is designed or optimized to. No one.
The only thing that gets close is the Oracle of Life/Paladin oradin build... but... they are an Oracle of Life...
I get that healing is boring for some people... but the Life mystery is NOT a bad mystery mechanically... like at all.
He specifically stated Life is good at what it does (healing).
But healing is a pretty weak specialty overall. Preventing damage (through buffs and dealing damage yourself) is generally more effective than healing it up afterwards.