Because PFS Scenarios are not replayable for any character...


Pathfinder Society

1 to 50 of 71 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Silver Crusade

...other than the 2nd credit you can get for a scenario if you GM it, if you run multiple characters (as just about anyone playing PFS does), doesn't the universe quickly shrink of what any of your characters can play?

I'm seeing more and more games offered at my local game store and online that I keep saying, "Done that one"..."Yep...done that one too". And, the funny part is that I've only been playing since like last October.

I realize that once you've played through a scenario the mystery and surprises are basically gone. Of course, if you're like me and haven't played it in a few months, you've basically forgotten everything anyway!

Why is there a PFS rule that Character B cannot play a scenario that Character A already went through? If you're a GM, they're assuming you won't metagame the play if you've GM'd it first. Plus, like I noted above, a lot of those details can be quickly forgotten over time and the scenario essentially becomes completely replayable.

Any chance Paizo might reconsider this?

I wouldn't mind replaying certain scenarios simply because I think they had some possibilities I might have missed. Maybe it wasn't GM'd well and I think another GM might guide it better. Also, there have been times when a boon received for a character was completely useless but would have been superb for a different character.

Shadow Lodge

Quickly - No ... eventually - yes

the thing your forgetting is you may replay or GM for Credit (a second time) a Single Scenario per GM Star

allowing credit for a total of 3 Times on a single scenario per GM star

will this Change - Unlikely

there is a POSSIBILITY that the GM Star thing may become per Year but it is only a possibility as of this moment

Silver Crusade

No didn't forget it. It just wasn't major enough to mention; it's just a single scenario per star (and lifetime for now).

Wraith235 wrote:

the thing your forgetting is you may replay or GM for

Credit (a second time) a Single Scenario per GM Star

Silver Crusade

I'd really like to know the rationale behind not letting multiple characters play the same scenarios. Maybe they could have some rule that it has to be a minimum of a 3-month lag between plays?

The Exchange 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

without the GM replays, there is no way to get to replay a scenario FOR CREDIT.

You want to play something again? round up some buddies and run thru it...

But for credit? nope, you can't and that's not likely to change.

...and yes, that means that the universe shrinks (I myself have 8 scenarios left that I can play, though two more come out at the end of the month) - but you know what? there are a lot of scenarios out there. (I have 15 PCs now... wow...). In a few years you are likely to run out of scenarios - and will be stuck with APs, Moduals, and the "re-playables" which are things like We Be Goblins.

don't dispair, game on! (it's a great run, play them all! see if you run out before you burn out!)

Shadow Lodge

maybe check out another store in the area

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
maybe check out another store in the area

If the same scenarios are offered again and again either request scenarios you haven't played or organize a game yourself (there are a lot of people that will GM a scenario when asked, but don't want to do the organising part of picking a date, invite players, get a location and report the scenario)

The Exchange 5/5

Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
maybe check out another store in the area

or talk to the organizer of the one you are going to, or ask around... no telling what you'll turn up.

I, for example have had a group of Newbies meeting at my house several weekends of the last couple months. We have hosted 2 to 3 tables (in my apartment) a weekend - sometimes as many as a dozen people... most of them new players. And we carefully pick scenarios the older hands have missed or can judge, and get a chance to play some of the older stuff (as a judge it's lots of fun to run your old favorites - one of mine is Black Waters).

so ask around.... see what you can turn up. Check to see if the shop you play at has a posting board... stick up a note and see who you can connect with.

Silver Crusade

My apologies, I think my point got missed. There are a finite number of scenarios and an even reduced amount for any given tier. For anyone playing with any regularity they will hit the same issue in PFS play and have limited ability to develop characters. Why the artificial PFS limit?

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Because it ruins organized play. Sorry to be blunt but this subject comes up every couple months, is talked back and forth on why it should and should not be done and frankly it isn't likely to change. This horse has been resurrected and beaten several times.

Shadow Lodge

There's more fun to be had seeking new adventures than chasing after missed opportunities.

Booncrafting your characters is likely to just lead to more missed possibilities.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Prethen wrote:
Why the artificial PFS limit?

Because you're not meant to relive the same stories over and over as a player. So they de-incentivize it by not allowing credit for multiple runs. You can still play it for fun, but you don't get any benefit from it.

Edit: If you need more arguments, read this post and this thread. Here as well.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Prethen wrote:
I'd really like to know the rationale behind not letting multiple characters play the same scenarios. Maybe they could have some rule that it has to be a minimum of a 3-month lag between plays?

As it is, Paizo is offering more than other network campaigns in the past who did not allow any replays at all, nor GM credit. You don't know how good you have it.

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Chester aka Paz

Prethen wrote:
Why the artificial PFS limit?

This topic has been discussed many times before; Drogon has come up with a couple of the best responses, here and here.

Shadow Lodge

Funny that it should be Drogon has the best responses for this...

Silver Crusade

Thank you everyone!

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

PFS was never intended to be a gamer's be-all and end-all, Prethen, especially for one who plays as much as you do. You're asking why a Mini can't pull a fully-packed trailer; because that's not what it was designed for.

5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

There are currently 142 scenarios available, not including specials, exclusives, sanctioned modules or APs. If you play once a week it will take you about two and a half years to play them all. In that time another 60 or so scenarios would of been released, which would extend the amount of time you could play even further before running out of new material. GMing stretches this out even more.

If the same scenarios are being offered at your local venue talk to the coordinator to mix things up, or try to start up your own event. If your a new player to an existing group try helping to recruit even more new players, so you have enough players to fill out tables of the games the veterans have already played.

The one organized play campaign that allowed unlimited replays was Living Realms for 4e. This devolved into groups farming the same handful of adventures for specific gear, and this resulted in high burnout and low retention of new players.

Pathfinder Society was also the first to allow GM credit. In all OP campaigns prior to it. If you ran a game before you played it. You were unable to later play it for credit.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Prethen wrote:
Thank you everyone!

You're welcome! :)

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If you notice you are running out of scenarios to play, I suggest you try to GM more. If your friends are all in the same boat. Build more boats and find more friends to GM for.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Brian Lefebvre wrote:
The one organized play campaign that allowed unlimited replays was Living Realms for 4e. This devolved into groups farming the same handful of adventures for specific gear, and this resulted in high burnout and low retention of new players.

This is actually a pretty inaccurate depiction. Completely open replays worked very well for LFR (i can attest to that having spent a number of years organizing both PFS and LFR events at the same time), but this was largely because the tracking and reward system for that campaign was intrinsically different than the one used for Pathfinder Society, and not as open to "boon farming" as it would be in PFS. Completely open replay could work for Pathfinder Society, but in order to do so, the entire infrastructure of how rewards are gained would have to be redone from the ground up, which isn't likely to ever happen.

Grand Lodge

I like to think of 4e as New Coke and Pathfinder as new old Coke.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

Matthew Starch wrote:
Brian Lefebvre wrote:
The one organized play campaign that allowed unlimited replays was Living Realms for 4e. This devolved into groups farming the same handful of adventures for specific gear, and this resulted in high burnout and low retention of new players.
This is actually a pretty inaccurate depiction. Completely open replays worked very well for LFR (i can attest to that having spent a number of years organizing both PFS and LFR events at the same time), but this was largely because the tracking and reward system for that campaign was intrinsically different than the one used for Pathfinder Society, and not as open to "boon farming" as it would be in PFS. Completely open replay could work for Pathfinder Society, but in order to do so, the entire infrastructure of how rewards are gained would have to be redone from the ground up, which isn't likely to ever happen.

In my experience 100% accurate.

I'm honestly excited that it worked for you though, what do you think you did differently in organizing your LFR group from the way most groups did so that the unlimited replay didn't cause so many problems?

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Don Walker wrote:
I like to think of 4e as New Coke and Pathfinder as new old Coke.

I just think of Pathfinder as Pathfinder, and let the other games and their audiences call themselves as whatever they want to. We really don't have any call, nor right to put on elitist airs.

The only time I ever think of D+D any more is in response to posts like this.

Sczarni

This may not be an option but how about getting a group together for some of the pfs crediting adventure paths and multi level modules. They will require a lot of time in terms of months/years but they add extra story lines, flavor, and pfs credit.

Runelords Spoiler:
Think of having a pc that has taken part in killing 2 of the 7 runelords: krune (4-26 the waking rune) and Karzoug (rotrl).

Sovereign Court

Ulfen Death Squad wrote:
Stuff

Please put spoiler tags around anything discussing BBEGs in scenarios.

Shadow Lodge

It would be nice if you could replay for credit after you haven't played the scenario for, say, a year? With limited reward, maybe XP/gold/prestige/fame only, no boons/items.

There's some scenarios I can't really remember anything about from when I played them, even when I go back and read over them to GM them.

Silver Crusade

That is sort if what I was getting at.

Avatar-1 wrote:

It would be nice if you could replay for credit after you haven't played the scenario for, say, a year? With limited reward, maybe XP/gold/prestige/fame only, no boons/items.

There's some scenarios I can't really remember anything about from when I played them, even when I go back and read over them to GM them.

Dark Archive

My guess is because I played the Confirmation with someone who had played it with another character (which I guess is ok, according to the GM) and at one point, the player stopped us and said "Ok, there is a monster in the next room, so get ready." That would probably happen a lot more.

The GM asked her to leave the table after that. lol

5/5 5/55/55/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd like it to reset by year. It can be daunting looking at a con and saying "well, if that table doesn't go off I can't play anything else" , especially if its the difference between going for 1 day or 2.

Dark Archive 5/5

Prethen wrote:
I'm seeing more and more games offered at my local game store and online that I keep saying, "Done that one"..."Yep...done that one too".

<shrug> How many times a month do you play? Considering they only release 2 a month, you're bound to run out quickly if you play more than 4-8 times a month... Especially new ones, since everyone is wanting to offer the latest so they can help affect the metaplot.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

4 people marked this as a favorite.

I will never agree with replay. As others have pointed out I have had many things to say about it over the years. As much of that has been linked, I'll leave it alone in this post, outside addressing new things that have come about since those old posts of mine:

I thoroughly dislike talk among so many that "even though I'm not allowed to replay for credit, I can replay as often as I want for NO credit." That drives me insane, as I feel it is a deliberate exploit of a grey area rule that wasn't well written. There are those with good intentions who genuinely use this grey area for the betterment of their communities, but I guarantee you that there are plenty of people out there who you don't hear about who abuse it regularly, driving players away from their communities instead of fostering growth.

I even dislike the GM star credit replay, as I feel it creates disparity in the player base, encouraging threads and views like this. At 1 lifetime replay per star, it is a useful tool and a good compromise. At 1 per season, as is so often being advocated since the rule's creation, it becomes a symptom of a problem.

There is no method that can be used to police replay after 1 year, or replay once per year, or only replay if you're a good player who doesn't spoil things for others, or only replay if your memory is so terrible you don't know any better anyway.

The only method of policing any of that is to say you can't do it. Period. And that is one of my favorite things about this campaign: this company is willing to make calls like that.

LFR is now dead, and has been for some time. The fact that it was run with 4th Edition was NOT what killed it, as it was dying a long slow death long before 4th Edition had serious sales problems. I have always believed, and will always believe, that peoples' selfishness and ability to lock out new players by taking all available seats was the number one culprit behind LFR's demise.

And I will never be interested in seeing the same thing happen to PFS.

Prethen, as you are one of my players, I can assure you that you are nowhere even close to finishing all available scenarios/modules/APs. If, however, you continue to play 6+ times per month, you will rapidly make up lost ground, and you will be forced to cut back. Happily, you have joined a home-brew campaign run by a very amusing GM who plans to convene twice per month. Instead of wondering about changing replay rules, cut back on your over-consumption of available content, enjoy Ian's game, perhaps start your own Adventure Path, or start GMing for me more often.

I have no idea how you find the time to play more than once per week, but therein lies your problem; the ability to replay is a solution that will lead to things you don't want to see.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Quote:
I have no idea how you find the time to play more than once per week, but therein lies your problem;

Some people are just voracious.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

3 people marked this as a favorite.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Quote:
I have no idea how you find the time to play more than once per week, but therein lies your problem;
Some people are just voracious.

Agreed. But giving them the ability to replay does not curb their appetite. It merely allows them to more often take available space away from less voracious consumers.

Shadow Lodge

Drogon wrote:
There is no method that can be used to police replay after 1 year, or replay once per year, or only replay if you're a good player who doesn't spoil things for others, or only replay if your memory is so terrible you don't know any better anyway.

Surely the reporting system could easily restrict credit if you've played it within the year. I think it can already tell if you've played the same scenario twice, all you need is a date check in there or it'll tell you it's invalid.


Paizo has stated that from their play numbers, the amount of people at or near the adventure limit is a tiny fraction of the overall PFS playerbase.

Remember that there are some 240 discrete PFS-sanctioned adventures a player can participate in.

Now, if the situation is that a given play venue is not offering a wide enough selection of the existing adventures, that is entirely an issue with that location. At that point you need to speak to the folks running things or the local VOs to get different events run, perhaps stuff from previous season that haven't played in a while.

-j

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Avatar-1 wrote:
Surely the reporting system could easily restrict credit if you've played it within the year.

The reporting system isn't the valid record. The chronicle is, which is awarded long before the reporting system could even warn the GM of the invalid playthrough.

5/5 5/55/55/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Avatar-1 wrote:
Surely the reporting system could easily restrict credit if you've played it within the year.
The reporting system isn't the valid record. The chronicle is, which is awarded long before the reporting system could even warn the GM of the invalid playthrough.

there's also so many errors on those things that they'll be dismissed by most people. Its kind of like having a car alarm go off.

Shadow Lodge

I think allowing generalized replays is a bad idea.

We have a guy who runs Thornkeep 1 pretty much every week, and, it's a lot of the same people playing every week. Eventually the guy stopped running it, because he got sick of the players meta-gaming everything.

I had the displeasure of GMing The Confirmation for someone who'd played it four times before, and he did nothing but sit on his phone, and occasionally look up, to drop some dice.

Now I know anecdotal evidence really doesn't add up to much, but given what I've seen, I believe allowing the general player base to replay any scenario, would result in a lot of people only showing up to roll dice and get loot, rather than play a module and have fun.

Scarab Sages 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Thames Valley aka chris manning

1 person marked this as a favorite.

in LFR locally they used to have replay days to power level characters - which involved just the combats from 6+ modules as everyone had played them so many times that the plot/story was irrelevant. This is why per character replays dont work.

I just this week played 0-04 frozen fingers of midnight having originally GM'd it in August 2008 at UK Gencon, and i still remembered most of the plot - the game was good, but sitting on my hands through a replay can be frustrating.


My problem with the whole "then GM" is that if you join a game late, you're unlikely to GM unless if you find a different group. Or, players who have played a lot feel as if they're forced to GM and they can't play anymore.

In my group, I WANT to GM. However, I can't because everyone in my regular group has already played every mod I've played and more. Rule is, you only GM what you've already played and enough players haven't that it's worthwhile. Anything new? Goes to more experienced DMs who will also be running it at the next con.

I can GM now, but only for a different group, and I can't play anything with that group because I'm out of 1-5's. They don't care because now everyone can play.. So... win?

Doesn't really feel like it.


There is no perfect solution that will make everyone happy, but IMO Paizo has done an excellent job by restricting replays and importantly putting out a steady stream of scenarios.

5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

There are ways to keep playing when you are running short, some of which have been mentioned. Play modules over mutiple sessions. Play sanctioned APs. Play campaign-mode APs which still qualifies for Chronicles. GM. Play for no credit to make a legal table. Run Beginners Box events for new players so PFs grows even faster and Paizo can assign more development hours to it so we can get three scenarios a month. ;)

I know none of these completely fixes the situation of someone running out of things to play for credit. The problem is, when replay is allowed, it can really ruin the game for the new players because the vets are either spoiling things, or are better prepared, even unintentionally. It is better to have vet PFS players graduate to GMing and/or APs than it is to squash new players wi unlimited replay. That seems to be the consensus of the folks who have been around PFS the longest, and who have played other organized play campaigns. It's a trade-off, to be sure, but the long-term success of the campaign has to be a bigger factor than the relatively small number of players who are able to game that often.

5/5

Zombkat: that must be a local rule, because it is not a PFs rule. If it were, I couldn't GM very much because I have played less than 15% of the games that I've GM'd!

I understand the idea for new GMs, so they are comfortable with the scenario, but it is not difficult to prep a scenario you haven't played. In fact, I suggest it is easier since you aren't limited by what your party chose to do, whether you skipped the option encounte, etc.

That rule should get revisited in your group, because it will eventually kill it for lack of GMs.


"Lack of GM's"?
Two are 3 star GM's, another GM's enough he has to be a one star by now, and my BF has played pretty much anything I'd want to GM except new stuff, which the other two normal GM's have already played. We're a table of GMs! That's the problem!

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Zombkat: that must be a local rule, because it is not a PFs rule. If it were, I couldn't GM very much because I have played less than 15% of the games that I've GM'd!

I understand the idea for new GMs, so they are comfortable with the scenario, but it is not difficult to prep a scenario you haven't played. In fact, I suggest it is easier since you aren't limited by what your party chose to do, whether you skipped the option encounte, etc.

That rule should get revisited in your group, because it will eventually kill it for lack of GMs.

Liberty's Edge

I have to agree with the no replay rule.

I always debate with myself about this rule, as I love a lot of the scenarios and I love being able to go to random tables around the state and sitting down with new people. It is a lot of fun. Being able to replay scenarios would be amazing, but it does bring up questions of spoilers, or too much metagaming, or boon farming (cult of lissala series farming anyone???).

I always reach the same conclusion that, with how PFS is set up, replay would break the setting and environment of the play, not too mention the mechanical aspects of it.

I think if chronicles were nothing but items, or if simply level 1-5 scenarios are re-playable, MAYBE then. But right now, it is not a great idea, regardless of how much I would personally love it.

5/5

Hmm... If that's the case I don't understand why you have to play before you GM a scenario. Any of you should be able to run something with some prep.

Another possibility is to expand your player base. Are you playing at someone's home, or in a public location? Tying advertising a public game or go to a local game con and run two tables, filling the second one with new players. Then your other GMs have someone to run for, and you will have a steonger group.

The replay rules really do more harm than good to the overall campaign. Partly because some people will cheat, but mostly because it is impossible to forget everything you already know. Suspense depends on surprise.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Avatar-1 wrote:
Surely the reporting system could easily restrict credit if you've played it within the year.
The reporting system isn't the valid record. The chronicle is, which is awarded long before the reporting system could even warn the GM of the invalid playthrough.

Absolutely, 100%, this is the issue. If I had a "check in" system as people showed up where I put their number into the system before games began (like happens in Magic tournaments) then this might be mitigated.

But there are an awful lot of people whose games go unreported from other coordinators, and unless it's a comprehensive system change, even this "check in" method really won't help. There are plenty of people who barely trouble themselves with their own characters' paperwork, so they are only tangentially aware of what they have and have not played. I have even run into someone who cheated the system by getting a second number and beginning a whole new PFS "life" with it. That was fun to deal with. /-:

As someone mentioned, the number of people that would be helped by opening up replay is a tiny fraction of the overall player base. That tiny fraction would be able to crowd out the larger percentage due to their voracious playing style if they were able to simply choose every single table offered. I'm quite happy to not have to deal with that ever again.

Digital Products Assistant

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Added a spoiler tag.


Prethen wrote:
I'm seeing more and more games offered at my local game store and online that I keep saying, "Done that one"..."Yep...done that one too". And, the funny part is that I've only been playing since like last October.

I wonder if what's going on here is that you aren't doing enough higher-tier scenarios, or if your group is not running enough 5-9s and 7-11s. This seems to be a common problem, with groups getting permanently stuck in the low Tiers due to a desire to accommodate everyone.

So, stick with few characters, Prethen, and you won't have this problem.

-Matt

1 to 50 of 71 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Because PFS Scenarios are not replayable for any character... All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.