Because PFS Scenarios are not replayable for any character...


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Silver Crusade

Agreed...you have pretty much noted where am at. Addiction also duly noted!

Mattastrophic wrote:
Prethen wrote:
I'm seeing more and more games offered at my local game store and online that I keep saying, "Done that one"..."Yep...done that one too". And, the funny part is that I've only been playing since like last October.

I wonder if what's going on here is that you aren't doing enough higher-tier scenarios, or if your group is not running enough 5-9s and 7-11s. This seems to be a common problem, with groups getting permanently stuck in the low Tiers due to a desire to accommodate everyone.

So, stick with few characters, Prethen, and you won't have this problem.

-Matt

5/5

Prethen wrote:
My apologies, I think my point got missed. There are a finite number of scenarios and an even reduced amount for any given tier. For anyone playing with any regularity they will hit the same issue in PFS play and have limited ability to develop characters. Why the artificial PFS limit?

If you play or run once per week, you will never run out of scenarios to play or run. Enough come out each year to cover this. If you play or run twice a week, you're set for the next six years. If you want to play or run four times a week, pick up an Adventure Path or two.

Either way, it will get tougher to find a full table to play with - that's where running more comes in.

I've played where others at the table know the scenario, and I've played where I know the scenario. It's less fun, 80% of the time. Not no fun, not horrible (most of the time), just less fun.

Truly, you're asking this question in the wrong forum - you should talk your local organizers. It isn't an easy job trying to find scenarios for everyone to play at various levels, etc. Especially in an established area which has the full spectrum of players from brand-new to 5-6 years running. Try to help them out - talk to other players, find out what they haven't played. See if you can arrange a whole table worth of players who haven't played scenario Y-XX. And try to keep your veterans playing their older characters - once you open up the 5-9's and 7-11's, there's a ton out there.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5

Mattastrophic wrote:
Prethen wrote:
I'm seeing more and more games offered at my local game store and online that I keep saying, "Done that one"..."Yep...done that one too". And, the funny part is that I've only been playing since like last October.

I wonder if what's going on here is that you aren't doing enough higher-tier scenarios, or if your group is not running enough 5-9s and 7-11s. This seems to be a common problem, with groups getting permanently stuck in the low Tiers due to a desire to accommodate everyone.

So, stick with few characters, Prethen, and you won't have this problem.

-Matt

From my point of view as a store coordinator a huge amount of flexibility is lost when you go below 4 tables. Ie, the size of the local community greatly effects things.

I pretty much need to run a low tier every week for the newcomers. Often 2. That really limits the number of modules, high tier, etc that I can schedule

Liberty's Edge

chris manning wrote:

in LFR locally they used to have replay days to power level characters - which involved just the combats from 6+ modules as everyone had played them so many times that the plot/story was irrelevant. This is why per character replays dont work.

I quit playing in that particular campaign after a year and a half - for different reasons (quality of scenarios being the prime). Thank goodness I quit before seeing any of the behavior you mentioned. Is it just me or has a lot of the playing style, attitude, and thinking associated with some/most MMORPG gamers bled over into tabletop roleplaying, including organized play?

Silver Crusade

I have to admit that I had run a Confirmation scenario where all but one of the players had already played it and any excitement in the scenario was basically gone. The players knew exactly what to do in the scenario even though they tried to not metagame and pretend it was fresh. On the bright side, the whole game only lasted about 3 1/2 hours.

5/5 5/55/55/5

This is why its very very important to get people into the 7-11 range. It doubles the number of scenarios you can play.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

To be clear about something:

Prethen plays at my store (Enchanted Grounds in Colorado). I offer 4 tables at every game slot I schedule (two Mondays per month and two slots on Saturday per month) along with offering a "Learn to Play" table once per month on Saturdays. I always offer 2 1-x scenarios, one mid (either 3-7 or 5-9) and one high (either 5-9 or 7-11). I am very diligent about offering a mix of new and old scenarios, and do not flood the schedule with one scenario or another (though with special things like the Shadow/Lantern Lodge retirement scenarios, that is problematic). Prethen has plenty of options, not counting the 2 stores within 10 miles of me that ALSO offer PFS on different days than I do.

Prethen's issue is that he played every slot I offered that he could play, every slot that another store offered that he could play, and then played online some. He has stated elsewhere that he played as much as 4 times per week, and never less than twice. His rabid consumption of content is the issue, not the ability to replay.

5/5 5/55/55/5

damn drogon your game days are bigger than some of my cons...


Drogon wrote:

To be clear about something:

Prethen plays at my store (Enchanted Grounds in Colorado). I offer 4 tables at every game slot I schedule (two Mondays per month and two slots on Saturday per month) along with offering a "Learn to Play" table once per month on Saturdays. I always offer 2 1-x scenarios, one mid (either 3-7 or 5-9) and one high (either 5-9 or 7-11). I am very diligent about offering a mix of new and old scenarios, and do not flood the schedule with one scenario or another (though with special things like the Shadow/Lantern Lodge retirement scenarios, that is problematic). Prethen has plenty of options, not counting the 2 stores within 10 miles of me that ALSO offer PFS on different days than I do.

Prethen's issue is that he played every slot I offered that he could play, every slot that another store offered that he could play, and then played online some. He has stated elsewhere that he played as much as 4 times per week, and never less than twice. His rabid consumption of content is the issue, not the ability to replay.

I would argue it is his issue to not DM.

To be fair you should DM about 1 in 5 times.

He should give back to the community. Or just play a whole ton of the confirmation, crypt of the ever flame, etc...

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

He has begun GMing. He is a very involved player; exactly the kind I like. Only thing I wish I could change about him is a propensity to ask everyone except me about this kind of thing. I'd rather he ask me first so we can just skip the debates and explanations. But, it shows involvement of its own kind, so I'm fine with it.

Edit: Also, so many typos in that last post. Should read one Saturday per month (so 8 games on a Saturday date). The learn to play happens on one Thursday per month. So, about 17 games per month. More during special events like when running GenCon specials.

5/5

Majuba wrote:
Prethen wrote:
My apologies, I think my point got missed. There are a finite number of scenarios and an even reduced amount for any given tier. For anyone playing with any regularity they will hit the same issue in PFS play and have limited ability to develop characters. Why the artificial PFS limit?

If you play or run once per week, you will never run out of scenarios to play or run. Enough come out each year to cover this. If you play or run twice a week, you're set for the next six years. If you want to play or run four times a week, pick up an Adventure Path or two.

I believe that Paizo is releasing approximately two scenarios per month. Playing more than twice a month is therefore unsustainable. Luckily, if you're a relatively new player, there are a Lot of scenarios to keep you going for at least a few years.

I believe that the intention is for PFS to be a marketing opportunity to encourage players who can commit to such regular gaming to consider Adventure Paths.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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Mekkis wrote:
Majuba wrote:
Prethen wrote:
My apologies, I think my point got missed. There are a finite number of scenarios and an even reduced amount for any given tier. For anyone playing with any regularity they will hit the same issue in PFS play and have limited ability to develop characters. Why the artificial PFS limit?

If you play or run once per week, you will never run out of scenarios to play or run. Enough come out each year to cover this. If you play or run twice a week, you're set for the next six years. If you want to play or run four times a week, pick up an Adventure Path or two.

I believe that Paizo is releasing approximately two scenarios per month. Playing more than twice a month is therefore unsustainable. Luckily, if you're a relatively new player, there are a Lot of scenarios to keep you going for at least a few years.

I believe that the intention is for PFS to be a marketing opportunity to encourage players who can commit to such regular gaming to consider Adventure Paths.

Paizo is currently releasing 26 new scenarios per season, not counting specials like the Bone Keep series or multi-table events like Seige of the Diamond City.

So, you can very easily play every single week. Considering things like specials and Free RPG Day modules, you can even count on GMing less that 50% of the time. Better, even if you play every single week, content will outpace you by at least three 4-hour scenarios/modules/specials per year. This does not count the every other month release of lengthy modules, and the every month release of APs.

I honestly think that, even if you only want to play for PFS credit, you can very easily play as much as 8 times per month and never run out of content. You just need to be really good with your schedule, and you will need to GM about 2 in 5 games. It's like its own little game inside the PFS system: figure out how to play into perpetuity twice per week by creating the ideal schedule.

In fact, I'm so confident in my statement I'll make an offer: I'll give $150 credit at my store to the first person who lays out a viable schedule based on my above statements. I'll even include free shipping if you're outside Denver. And my Paizo backstock is huge, just so you know. I even stock some things that Paizo is sold out of. (-;

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

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Alright, every month we get 2 new scenarios and a new AP volume. We get a new Module every quarter, although sanctioning of those is behind. We do get extras like Bonekeep (which need conventions to play) and some APs (Wrath of the Righteous) are not PFS legal. Season 5 is going to be tough because of these restrictions but I think I can do it. (I'll just have to use more r-eplayable material than i would like)

So here's my schedule for Season 5 using only new material + replayables with 8+ sessions a month GMing 25%-.

Schedule:

Since Months are ~ 4.5 weeks, each month will alternate between 4/5 weeks needed to fill with the occasional convention and at least 1 play a week with a minimum of 8 sessions a month.

August: (9 Slots / 4 Weeks) [Play 8, GM 1 Total: 8/1 11%]

Week 1: Re-playable lvl 1 Scenario
Week 2: Play Module pt 1 (2/2) [Dragon's Demand]
Week 3: Go to a 6 Slot Convention (Play special, 2 new scenarios, Bonekeep 1 +2, and GM 1 slot to get your boon)
Week 4: Play Module pt 1 (2/2) [Dragon's Demand]

September: (8 Slots / 5 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 14/3 18%] *Remember September's scenarios don't come out till the end of the month, so we're going to have to schedule new material a week behind from here on out.

Week 1: Play 3rd Scenario from Convention
Week 2: Play Module pt 2 (1/2) + Play Module pt 2 (2/2) [Dragon's Demand]
Week 3: GM 2nd scenario from convention
Week 4: Play Re-Playable lvl 1 Scenario + GM 3rd scenario from convention
Week 5: Play Re-Playable level 1 Module (Session 1 + 2)

October: (8 Slots / 4 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 20/5 20%]

Week 1: Play September's Scenario 1 + GM Something
Week 2: Play Module pt 3 (1/2) + Play Module pt 3 (2/2) [Dragon's Demand]
Week 3: Play September's Scenario 2 + GM Something
Week 4: Play Re-playable Module (Session 1 +2)

November: (8 Slots / 5 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 26/7 21%]
*Delayed Sanctioning of Wardens/No AP is going to make this difficult

Week 1: Play October's Scenario 1
Week 2: Play AP Leg
Week 3: Play Module Leg
Week 4: Play November's Scenario 2
Week 5: GM WBG + WBG 2

December: (8 Slots / 4 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 32/9 22%]

Week 1: Play November's Scenario 1 + GM Something
Week 2: *Play 2 Re-playable Scenarios
Week 3: *Play Re-playable Module (Every time you do this combo you get a char at lvl 2 with 1 xp away from 3)
Week 4: Play November's Scenario 2 + Gm Something

January: (8 Slots / 5 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 38/11 22%]

Week 1: Play December's Scenario 1 + GM Something
Week 2: *Play 2 Re-playable Scenarios
Week 3: *Play Re-playable Module (Every time you do this combo you get a char at lvl 2 with 1 xp away from 3)
Week 4: Play December's Scenario 2
Week 5: Gm Something

February: (8 Slots / 4 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 44/13 23%]

Week 1: Play January's Scenario 1 + GM Something
Week 2: *Play 2 Re-playable Scenarios
Week 3: *Play Re-playable Module (Every time you do this combo you get a char at lvl 2 with 1 xp away from 3)
Week 4: Play January's Scenario 2 + Gm Something

March: (8 Slots / 5 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 50/15 23%]
Week 1: Play February's Scenario 1 + GM Something
Week 2: *Play 2 Re-playable Scenarios
Week 3: *Play Re-playable Module (Every time you do this combo you get a char at lvl 2 with 1 xp away from 3)
Week 4: Play February's Scenario 2
Week 5: Gm Something

April: (8 Slots / 5 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 56/17 23%]
Week 1: Play March's Scenario 1 + GM Something
Week 2: *Play 2 Re-playable Scenarios
Week 3: *Play Re-playable Module (Every time you do this combo you get a char at lvl 2 with 1 xp away from 3)
Week 4: Play March's Scenario 2 + Gm Something

May: (8 Slots / 5 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 62/19 23%]
Week 1: Play March's Scenario 1 + GM Something
Week 2: *Play 2 Re-playable Scenarios
Week 3: *Play Re-playable Module (Every time you do this combo you get a char at lvl 2 with 1 xp away from 3)
Week 4: Play March's Scenario 2 + Gm Something

June: (8 Slots / 5 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 68/21 24%]
Week 1: Play May's Scenario 1 + GM Something
Week 2: *Play 2 Re-playable Scenarios
Week 3: *Play Re-playable Module (Every time you do this combo you get a char at lvl 2 with 1 xp away from 3)
Week 4: Play May's Scenario 2 + Gm Something

July: (8 Slots / 5 Weeks) [Play 6, GM 2 Total: 74/23 24%]
Week 1: Play June's Scenario 1 + GM Something
Week 2: *Play 2 Re-playable Scenarios
Week 3: *Play Re-playable Module (Every time you do this combo you get a char at lvl 2 with 1 xp away from 3)
Week 4: Play June's Scenario 2 + Gm Something

If we assume that Module/ AP sanctioning will continue we get a much nicer looking schedule.

Most Months are:
Play 2 new scenarios
Play AP Leg
Play Module Leg
GM Twice.

Which gets us to 8 sessions total 6 played and 2 GMed. (75% play + 25% GM)

Assuming you don't want to replay a re-playable more than once a year we've got 1st Steps, WBG, MotFF & The Confirmation as 1 slot each + RoW1, Murder's Mark, Godsmouth Herest & Thornkeep 1 at 2 slots each for 12 extra slots a year, + the 3rd Scenario at GenCon + Special(s) + Bonekeep gives us about 15 extra slots a year, meaning we can even go to 2 10 slot conventions and play 15 slots and GM 5. (Our normal 25% ratio)

We can even go play Free RPG day as a bonus.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

I've got this in a spreadsheet so if you'd like to see it under different assumptions than I made lemme know.

Also this June will feature The Emerald Spire instead of a normal module.

"A hardcover 16-level mega-dungeon designed for characters level 1–13."

So this will provide a lot more content as well.

Also I hear Mummy's Mask sanctioning is coming soon, even if the modules are delayed which will make my schedule alternating months of playing 2 re-playable scenarios / re-playable module instead of both every month.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

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And barely over an hour later Pirate Rob wins. Hit me up with a PM and I'll get all the details sorted out for your prize, my friend. Thank you for the awesome post that I will forever link to whenever this topic comes up again. (-:

For others reading this, consider something: If you're like Prethen and have only just started playing within the last 6 months to a year, you have an enormous backlog of content to play if you want to avoid even having to replay a single scenario each year. Mixing in the 120+ available scenarios from Seasons 0-4 will almost assure that you are never lacking for play experience, and guarantees that asking for unlimited replay is NOT the solution.

PS - In case you're checking in, Mike/John/Eric: regardless of these posts I still strongly believe that you need to publish three scenarios per month. One tier 1-5, one tier 3-7 and one tier 5-9 (alternating monthly with a tier 7-11) being published each month will stop any and all chances that people like Prethen become more common. Having the ability to always seat low-level alongside mid- or high-level tables no matter what era you began playing would be a huge boon to this campaign. This will make your campaign and your brand stronger, lead to more longevity of the player base, and (of course) lead to more sales of core product. I know we've discussed this many times in the past (sometimes rancorously), and I know it is one of your "considerations," but I truly hope it someday moves off the Consideration list and onto the Done list.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

I'm headed out now but I'll hit you up later.

As a quick note I agree with Drogon that we could use 3 scenarios a month. Also my scheduling would have been a lot easier (and involve a lot less tier 1 replay) if I had done any season other than 5. (Due to AP/Module Sanctioning)

During this year we actually have a super low amount of things playable in PFS due to the slowdown of module sanctioning and lack of WoR sanctioning.

If you've still got the ability to play older stuff you could easily that for a few years (at this crazy 8+ per month) instead of repeating the tier 1 stuff or playing AP/Modules.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Message received and email sent.

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

Drogon wrote:
PS - In case you're checking in, Mike/John/Eric: regardless of these posts I still strongly believe that you need to publish three scenarios per month. One tier 1-5, one tier 3-7 and one tier 5-9 (alternating monthly with a tier 7-11) being published each month will stop any and all chances that people like Prethen become more common. Having the ability to always seat low-level alongside mid- or high-level tables no matter what era you began playing would be a huge boon to this campaign. This will make your campaign and your brand stronger, lead to more longevity of the player base, and (of course) lead to more sales of core product. I know we've discussed this many times in the past (sometimes rancorously), and I know it is one of your "considerations," but I truly hope it someday moves off the Consideration list and onto the Done list.

It's still feedback that we consider and discuss.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

John Compton wrote:
It's still feedback that we consider and discuss.

Thank you. In case you can't tell by the fact that I'm willing to spend $150 of my own money to prove a point: I think this campaign is something special. I just want it to stay that way.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

Aww, I wish I knew about this contest sooner! Awesome job, Pirate Rob!

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

As a note, I'm probably underestimating the time it takes to play AP legs/Modules. I would imagine they would more frequently take 3 sessions, but 2 seems liked a nice minimum, especially if its somebody trying to rush through as much content as possible.

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