Goblin Squad Member
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@Tyncale - with threaded items staying with your respawned character, there is no burden/requirement/reason to run back to a corpse. Players should accept that anything worthwhile has been lost; either destroyed in death, taken by the killer, or taken by someone 5 minutes after the killer. If something needs to be recovered from the body, the player can do a /tell to the killer and arrange a trade. (Or descend on the killer with buddies to arrange a trade of a different sort.)
This is precisely the pint I was trying to get across, just with less detail.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not see how corpse-camping could not just be another incentive for group-PvP. I totally assume that you will respawn in a place that is safe and can not be camped, so corpse camping is just about material loss and pride. And possible group PvP and revenge.
If you want to run back to your corpse alone, I think you are being silly. Bring some friends and then hope that your killer is not waiting for you with even more friends. Maybe they have the criminal flag (from looting or so), maybe they do not. If not they may just stand by while you retrieve any items that may be left on your corpse, while your friends are watching their every move. Or you could go for revenge and take the rep-hit. Or there is a Feud or a War. Or factions come into play.
I can see all sorts of scenarios, where only the scenario of the lone player being the proverbial Ass hitting his head on the same stone several times is the one where you will have some grief. But not really griefing imo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you think about it, your valuable stuff will be looted. The little bits that will be left (possibly) are not worth going back for. Issues of war, revenge, another try at getting passage by, etc... are different matters. That is on you. Hopefully, most MMO players will be aware of that by the nature of threading and "intangible coin" in this game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It brings up a question. I am guessing that at least for awhile, coin will be interjected through NPC drops and maybe quests? Will that be profitable enough (and "safe" loot) when you get ganked for your unthreaded "small clothes" and incidentals?
What I mean is: Will PVE be profitable for the possible coin, even if you lose the material drops?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess setting up a blind on top of a corpse isn't "corpse camping"?If it becomes standard practice for players to return to their corpses, it will become standard practice for their corpses to be camped. If I were to do such a thing, I would sit by the corpse and wait for the owner to show up. If he or she should show up, I immediately loot from the corpse and get the thief / criminal flag. Then hope the player is foolish enough or underpowered / outnumbered enough to attack.
What I certainly might do is set up a blind right on top of your corpse, and attack the second you enter or SAD you.
"If I were to...." Some how you two keep missing that. Is it by choice or just poor reading comprehension?
In their defense, the bit about setting up the blind is in a separate paragraph, so is an independent idea. If you had included it in the paragraph with "If I were to do such a thing..." there would be a clear continuity of thought. The use of "what I might certainly do..." in a separate paragraph gives the impression that you won't 'corpse-camp', but might certainly put a 'blind' on a corpse, as if the two are different in your mind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a final note, I did not say I would corpse camp. I said "if I were to corpse camp, this is how I would do it."
You're right, I misread you. For what it's worth, if I were to corpse camp someone in the way you described, I would sincerely hope the GMs would give me a stern talking-to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On a final note, I did not say I would corpse camp. I said "if I were to corpse camp, this is how I would do it."You're right, I misread you. For what it's worth, if I were to corpse camp someone in the way you described, I would sincerely hope the GMs would give me a stern talking-to.
The problem I have with your perspective Nihimon is, you always seem to turn to GMs and game mechanics to solve problems.
Corpse camping is best stopped by players cutting their losses and not returning to get the junk left behind if anything at all. GMs have more important things to do then to tell corpse campers what not to do, on the other side of that equation.
In an MMO with heavy emphasis On PvP, a certain amoun of self reliance or player group reliance are needed, otherwise you lose the sandbox and you might as well lose the MMO. This is why theme parks end up being almost completely solo game play. The only two multiplayer aspects are raid grinding for end game loot and chat channels.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It brings up a question. I am guessing that at least for awhile, coin will be interjected through NPC drops and maybe quests? Will that be profitable enough (and "safe" loot) when you get ganked for your unthreaded "small clothes" and incidentals?
What I mean is: Will PVE be profitable for the possible coin, even if you lose the material drops?
It might be - it won't be a complete loss in any case. It might cover repair costs, anyway, unless people are dying a lot.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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On a final note, I did not say I would corpse camp. I said "if I were to corpse camp, this is how I would do it."You're right, I misread you. For what it's worth, if I were to corpse camp someone in the way you described, I would sincerely hope the GMs would give me a stern talking-to.The problem I have with your perspective Nihimon is, you always seem to turn to GMs and game mechanics to solve problems.
Corpse camping is best stopped by players cutting their losses and not returning to get the junk left behind if anything at all. GMs have more important things to do then to tell corpse campers what not to do, on the other side of that equation.
In an MMO with heavy emphasis On PvP, a certain amoun of self reliance or player group reliance are needed, otherwise you lose the sandbox and you might as well lose the MMO. This is why theme parks end up being almost completely solo game play. The only two multiplayer aspects are raid grinding for end game loot and chat channels.
I think a more effective way to handle corpse campers would be to tell the factional or feud enemies of the transgressor where, how well equipped, and with how large a group he is camping said corpse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem I have with your perspective Nihimon is, you always seem to turn to GMs and game mechanics to solve problems.
There are real problems with a lot of "Open PvP" games. GMs and Game Mechanics are part of the solution to those problems. The idea that we should just leave everything to the players to solve themselves is a horrid, horrid idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem I have with your perspective Nihimon is, you always seem to turn to GMs and game mechanics to solve problems.There are real problems with a lot of "Open PvP" games. GMs and Game Mechanics are part of the solution to those problems. The idea that we should just leave everything to the players to solve themselves is a horrid, horrid idea.
Agreed. If that is the main gist of Bluddwolf's philosophy, I would add (again) that player only solutions have repeatedly failed to solve these problems from a large market share's perspective.
It don't work Dude.
Gunna make for interesting siege warfare when the GMs have to talk sternly to everyone corpse camping.
"Don't fire your ballista at the naked mage at the base of your city wall! He is only retrieving his gear"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gunna make for interesting siege warfare when the GMs have to talk sternly to everyone corpse camping.
"Don't fire your ballista at the naked mage at the base of your city wall! He is only retrieving his gear"
Why do you feel it is corpse camping to be "near" a corpse in a battlefield situation?
I don't think that anyone else does, when they examine the situational aspects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To me, at least, "corpse camping" is killing and leaving something in the body. This is so it doesn't decay and the newb is lured back to get something and killed again. Just as one example.
It does not apply in situations where you stay in the area for war, offense, defense, etc... Just when you are simply waiting to kill them again for lulz. I admit, that makes it pretty interpretive.
Thats my point. If corpse camping is made against the rules then the GMs are going to have to deal with hundreds of complaints a month that are just like my example. Wasted time over something that should be obvious to the players.
Either don't go back to your corpse OR go back to your corpse and put yourself at risk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem I have with your perspective Nihimon is, you always seem to turn to GMs and game mechanics to solve problems.There are real problems with a lot of "Open PvP" games. GMs and Game Mechanics are part of the solution to those problems. The idea that we should just leave everything to the players to solve themselves is a horrid, horrid idea.
This would be true if I said "everything ", which I did not. A GM's primary concern is to quickly fix game mechanic issues / glitches, not "giving stern talking to " or otherwise policing player behaviors (unless severe rule violations).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem I have with your perspective Nihimon is, you always seem to turn to GMs and game mechanics to solve problems.There are real problems with a lot of "Open PvP" games. GMs and Game Mechanics are part of the solution to those problems. The idea that we should just leave everything to the players to solve themselves is a horrid, horrid idea.
Exactly. We can already see that the "game style" of some players will, perhaps unintentionally, ruin the game experience for other players. You see, I'm not trying to be the standard-bearer for all players that are not a bandit; I'm trying to speak for the casual players that you'd never find posting on message boards or have yet to play an MMO which Bluddwolf seems to forget about.
Personally, I'm fine with a bandit trying to murder me, I welcome that challenge. Yet there are players that will indeed be victimized more than others do to their lack of experience or knowledge. These are the players that could use an extra few game design features in their favor, so they aren't always on the losing side. Just something to think on...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yet there are players that will indeed be victimized more than others do to their lack of experience or knowledge. [b]These are the players that could use an extra few game design features in their favor, so they aren't always on the losing side.[/b{ Just something to think on...
They will have this. It is called the starter area. The NPC settlement and it's surrounding hexes will be under heavy patrols of wardens, who will respond with swift lethality against any Unsanctioned PvP. Players can remain here for as long as they like, forever even, until they feel they are acclimated enough to the game system and culture to venture out into the open world.
Out in that open world the Devs have suggested that traveling solo is ill advised. They have promised that you will die often, particularly at the hands of other players. So it is best for you to probably join a group before leaving the starter zone.
Your new group will most likely guide you to your new settlement. It and its surrounding hexes are also safer than the open wilderness. However they will nit be as safe as the NPC Starter settlements.
In EvE terms what it appears we have is:
NPC Settlement = High Security 1.0
Player Settlement = Mid Level Security .5
Wilderness = Low Sec .4 down to .1
FFA Hex = Null Sec 0.0 but it is questionable if this will exist.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gunna make for interesting siege warfare when the GMs have to talk sternly to everyone corpse camping.
"Don't fire your ballista at the naked mage at the base of your city wall! He is only retrieving his gear"
Why do you feel it is corpse camping to be "near" a corpse in a battlefield situation?
I don't think that anyone else does, when they examine the situational aspects.
If someone has to blatantly misrepresent your point in order to even attempt to counter it, you know you're winning the argument.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the battlefield, corpse camping is the same as killing everything that walks or crawls that is not on your side.
Any combatant on the battlefield that is returning to his corpse to recover gear, is not reengaging in the combat but more interested in his own possessions. In just such a case I hope there is intentional friendly fire!
It is similar to those who ninja loot while the fight is still ongoing, unless that player was instructed by the group leader to do so.
But these last two examples brings to my mind the Betrayal Flag, that is a topic for its own thread.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I were to do such a thing, I would sit by the corpse and wait for the owner to show up. If he or she should show up, I immediately loot from the corpse and get the thief / criminal flag. Then hope the player is foolish enough or underpowered / outnumbered enough to attack.
What I certainly might do is set up a blind right on top of your corpse, and attack the second you enter or SAD you.
For what it's worth, if I were to corpse camp someone in the way you described, I would sincerely hope the GMs would give me a stern talking-to.
Griefing is doing something to another player with the intention and primary outcome of ruining that player's experience.
@Blaeringr - most open world games with unrestricted PvP tend to have very very hands-off policies when it comes to griefing. Pathfinder Online will be an exception to that trend.
There are three ways [poor] behavior can be limited:
1: Game Mechanics...
2: Community Management...
3: Social Engineering...
It is not our intention to create an "anything goes" world where players are subjected to endless scams, ganks, and immersion breaking behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However, this line from the supplied link on the layered response (thaks for that btw!)does give me hope:
"We're Watching: If someone is causing you grief, report that behavior. We'll take swift action if we decide that the person is misbehaving. Our justice will be swift, and arbitrary. Players will learn that they shouldn't try to figure out where the line is; there is no line. Bad behavior is in the eye of the beholder, and the eye is ours. (I should note that being killed by someone is not misbehavior. Misbehavior is intentionally inflicting emotional distress on another player without any in-game rationale.)"
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Goblin Squad Member
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OK, another newbie question: What is a threaded item?
On another note, I can see I am going to need to spend quite a bit of time in the settlement hex until I get the hang of things!!!
See Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves for the full explanation.
In short:
Each character has a certain number of "threads of fate" they can use to tie their equipment to them... These threads cause the items to which they are tied to remain with the character when the character resurrects, meaning threaded items cannot be looted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not saying that corpse camping is not griefing. I was saying that the best way to handle corpse camping is for players not to return to their corpse, for the sole purpose of retrieving their gear / loot.
If it become part of the learned culture, new players will not fall victim to this griefing trap.
This solution does not cost any expenditure of development or GM time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not saying that corpse camping is not griefing. I was saying that the best way to handle corpse camping is for players not to return to their corpse, for the sole purpose of retrieving their gear / loot.
If it become part of the learned culture, new players will not fall victim to this griefing trap.
This solution does not cost any expenditure of development or GM time.
I have to agree Bluddwolf. Real instances are difficult to prove in any case. Good thing it will be an arbitrary judgment on GW's part. My comments were just what I feel about the extreme cases where it is just being done to be a jerk.
Being in the area of a corpse is not necessarily "corpse camping". Very hard to judge. Much better, what you suggest, just don't go back alone thinking that the fight will come out different or that there will be good stuff left behind. There won't. Unthreaded gear will be an important source of loot in PfO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was saying that the best way to handle corpse camping is for players not to return to their corpse, for the sole purpose of retrieving their gear / loot.
And I was saying it's "interesting" that Ryan explicitly says defeated players are "encouraged to return to their corpses" in Some Good Reason for Your Little Black Backpack.
Maybe there's a disconnect between your vision and Ryan's that's illustrated by the difference. Maybe Ryan's trying to make a game where players don't have to learn all the hard lessons they would have to learn in most other PvP games. Maybe there's an market he's trying to capture that has a low tolerance for accepting that kind of behavior, and would simply quit playing if repeatedly subjected to it.
@Blaeringr - most open world games with unrestricted PvP tend to have very very hands-off policies when it comes to griefing. Pathfinder Online will be an exception to that trend.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's be clear, anyone who has experience in MMOs knows exactly what Nihimon means when using the term "corpse camping." Again, this isn't complicated and there is no need to get into semantics. Just don't corpse camp a dude's corpse for the lolz, what's so hard to understand about this Bluddwolf?
Why are we fighting these clearly-defined issues?
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Goblin Squad Member
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And I was saying it's "interesting" that Ryan explicitly says defeated players are "encouraged to return to their corpses" in Some Good Reason for Your Little Black Backpack.
The encouragement mentioned there is in relation to the fact that encumbrance will discourage your killer/looter to take everything from your corpse, implying that there will be stuff left on it.
Defeated players are likewise more encouraged to return to their corpses, because the encumbrance system discourages bandits from taking everything, and most carried gear and goods survive death.
I do not think there is a whole lot of encouragement there; I think many killers will work in packs so several people could loot the corpse empty and there is also the fact the most worthless things will be left on the corpse anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unthreaded gear will be an important source of loot in PfO.
That makes me think of one of the cool things about Wurm Online.
In Wurm, some creatures were pretty strong - and a character wandering in the wilderness could be killed by 1 or 3 monsters. (It was also possible to die of lingering wounds that had a DoT effect, or from falls, or to get into terrain where you needed good stats to climb out). When a character died everything stayed on his corpse, and when the corpse vanished (after 24 hours, I believe) the items would drop to the ground, as a generic 'pile' of items. We called these 'death piles'. Areas with rough terrain and lots of foliage could sometimes hide these death piles for weeks if not months.
Carried coin dropped as well; and sometimes people would lose enchanted weapons or tools in places they couldn't recover their body. Death piles could be full of newbie junk, or worth small fortunes. It was a pretty cool mechanic.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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If there's a good reason for there to be valuable stuff left on the corpse unattended and no good reason to guard it, then camping the corpse is possible.
Most MMOs have the reasons "you can't take it" and "you get nothing for sticking around". If the reasons are "you can't carry it all right away" and "someone else (including the previous owner) might take it", then leaving a guard on the body might be a reasonable behavior. Other reasonable behaviors would include coming out in force.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am also wondering how often the "encumbrance" is really a hindrance factor.
Unless there is a huge difference in carry-capacity between the killer and victim, I am pretty sure the looter will be able to take anything that is of value. I am going to assume most people will travel light anyway, especially bandits and other players that are on the prowl for a kill (due to feuds or wars or factional) so there will be room for loot.
There is one thing that Stephen mentioned, that could make things more interesting, and that is the fact that a veteran character will need to carry quit a bit of extra gear, if he wants to make use of all his accumulated abilities in the field. So there is a trade off there: do I want to be prepared and versatile, carrying more stuff (being able to swap roles and gear) or do I travel light but able to only fullfill a single role?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Unless there is a huge difference in carry-capacity between the killer and victim...Folks specializing in transporting goods will no doubt have increased inventory space equipped, while folks specialized in killing them probably won't.
Not in the case of groups that focus on killing and looting.
If someone has to blatantly misrepresent your point in order to even attempt to counter it, you know you're winning the argument.Gunna make for interesting siege warfare when the GMs have to talk sternly to everyone corpse camping.
"Don't fire your ballista at the naked mage at the base of your city wall! He is only retrieving his gear"
Why do you feel it is corpse camping to be "near" a corpse in a battlefield situation?
I don't think that anyone else does, when they examine the situational aspects.
So war is exempted from corpse camping, ok. I assume feuds and faction battles also then? Raids on POIs? The vast majority of PVP?
I guess it would be better to send everything through to the GMs and get them to figure if out.
Let's be clear, anyone who has experience in MMOs knows exactly what Nihimon means when using the term "corpse camping." Again, this isn't complicated and there is no need to get into semantics. Just don't corpse camp a dude's corpse for the lolz, what's so hard to understand about this Bluddwolf?
Why are we fighting these clearly-defined issues?
Because like griefing there is nothing clearly defined. Everybody has a different idea of what these are and taking it to the GMs is just a waste of their time and effort.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let's be clear, anyone who has experience in MMOs knows exactly what Nihimon means when using the term "corpse camping." Again, this isn't complicated and there is no need to get into semantics. Just don't corpse camp a dude's corpse for the lolz, what's so hard to understand about this Bluddwolf?
Why are we fighting these clearly-defined issues?
There is no disagreement on the definition of corpse camping or when it is usually considered griefing. What I have been advising is the best way to not fall prey to it.
What should be obvious is that if the victim does not return to his corpse, he can not be corpse camped. The opposite is also true. If you go back to your corpse, without having modified something with your approach, you will just be killed again. This encourages the corpse campers to continue their practice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because like griefing there is nothing clearly defined. Everybody has a different idea of what these are and taking it to the GMs is just a waste of their time and effort.Let's be clear, anyone who has experience in MMOs knows exactly what Nihimon means when using the term "corpse camping." Again, this isn't complicated and there is no need to get into semantics. Just don't corpse camp a dude's corpse for the lolz, what's so hard to understand about this Bluddwolf?
Why are we fighting these clearly-defined issues?
I daresay only the illogical would find griefing behavior enigmatic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I daresay only the illogical would find griefing behavior enigmatic.
It is not griefing behavior that is enigmatic, because the victim has already decided it was griefing. What is enigmatic is the individualized definition of what constitutes griefing.
I have incredibly thick skin when it comes to the spoken or written word, and so it is impossible to grief me in a chat or voip program.
You can corpse camp me, and you'll be there all day and night waiting for me to turn up.
You can respawn camp me and kill me 100 times. I will put your verbal chat griefing tolerance tot he test, while you're doing it. I bet the griefer will break under my verbal onslaught, before I get tired of getting killed.
You can suicide gank me, and I will return with a naked noob avatar or ship, and let you do it again, and again. In games like EVE, PVP'ers have gotten savvy to the kill ratios, and its is the isk lost vs. destroyed that counts. I'm 6 w, 6 L for this weekend. But, I destroyed .26 billion vs. .01 billion lost.
Greifing is mostly about tolerance, thresholds, reactions and perspective. Everyone's definition is unique.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Not in the case of groups that focus on killing and looting.Unless there is a huge difference in carry-capacity between the killer and victim...Folks specializing in transporting goods will no doubt have increased inventory space equipped, while folks specialized in killing them probably won't.
Those groups will get wiped by the groups that focus on killing alone. Opportunity cost is a thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Those groups will get wiped by the groups that focus on killing alone. Opportunity cost is a thing.Not in the case of groups that focus on killing and looting.Unless there is a huge difference in carry-capacity between the killer and victim...Folks specializing in transporting goods will no doubt have increased inventory space equipped, while folks specialized in killing them probably won't.
You are assuming even numbers, I'm not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The victim doesn't 'decide' it was griefing. The victim is made a victim by the griefer.I daresay only the illogical would find griefing behavior enigmatic.It is not griefing behavior that is enigmatic, because the victim has already decided it was griefing.
What is enigmatic is the individualized definition of what constitutes griefing.
That enigma is a product of the belief that fact is opinion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Something so loosely defined as "Griefing" can not be fact, it is an opinion.
Just because some may share your opinion, does not make it fact.
The victim is made the victim of an action that he or she considered griefing.
You fight so hard for the strangest ideals. I'm not comprehending why you are dissecting the griefing concept, what is your goal here?