Not like the rules. I know that part. I mean in the game universe. How do they actually work? Why do Bards have their own spell tree? Why do Bards use Charisma to cast spells? How do Bards cast spells at all, and why do they cast like Sorcerers instead of Wizards? Is their performance magical in nature? I mean, the CRB says that their performance creates magical effects.
Sorry for all the questions like this. I haven't really played a Bard since 2e. I love a lot of the changes that have been made, but I don't understand them from a lore perspective, and that makes it difficult to RP. Specifically, Bardic magic. I'm used to Bards just being like Wizards, only advancing far more slowly. Now I have no idea how it looks. I mean, it seems like they draw on innate power, like Sorcerers? But they don't have the whole "special bloodline" thing going on that Sorcerers do. But they're also not memorizing spells the way Wizards do. So where is their magic coming from? Why?
Music definitely has a magical property to it and if you notice, all Bardic spells require a verbal component and that it has to be singing, reciting, or music.
Charisma is often described of as force of will and combined with magic being based off it, the Bard is generating his magic through his music and force of will. The Bard isn't just singing you to sleep with a Sleep spell, he's commanding his own portion of magic through willpower and entwining it with his music.
Ever play Dark Ages of Camelot? It's a bit like that with Minstrels.
Anyways, this is how I like to look at it and hope it helped you a bit.
They're a type of magic user who learn to cast spells that rely on panache, personal magnetism, charm, music, voice, and misdirection, rather than study and intellect like a wizard -- though many bards are esteemed scholars as well. Their performances are indeed magical, with their grace and beauty suffusing the very fabric of the world with the power they grant to their allies.
It's not that much of a stretch to me.
I work out a lot harder if I can listen to some loud rock, or study better with slow classical. Even without the magical component it has a basis in real life to a certain extent.
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Have you ever done a thing, and then tried to do the same thing while listening to the Space Jam theme?
If so, you understand how the Bard works.
The problem is bsrds have been the laughing stock of d&d for decades. You know this as a 2e player. Tight pants wearing goofy hat donning prancers with little fiddles and minstreling like the guy in the holy grail.
Bards are actually pretty interesting in their celtic roots and were powerful and respected figures. Look them up in that context to better get them. Outside of that type of setting? Reflavor them and try to make them as rockstar as possible so they aren't a fruity punchline.
Bards are badass in pathfinder.
Because when I see THIS I instantly think "badass"
The Bard in RPGs has its origins in the actual professions of the minstrel and bard, as well as the many other names they went by in other cultures. Primarily, minstrels would sing and/or play music, while bards would compose and recite poetry. In both cases, they were usually benefiting from the patronage of a noble, and as a result they often composed works that would extol the virtues and embellish the histories of their patron, their patron's ancestors, or the lands that they served. It also gave them access to their patron's typically large libraries and historical records which they used to aid them in their work.
Over time, "bard" became a fairly generic term to mean any singer, poet, or author. Meanwhile, minstrels lost their association with being a part of noble entertainment and largely became the traveling street musicians and storytellers that we generally know them as today.
The combination of those simplified histories, as well as a smattering of the court jester, explains much of the RPG Bard's skill set and abilities. Having direct access to nobles, their court, and their libraries, as well as being traveling storytellers, explains their having vast knowledge of just about everything ranging from political intrigue in the king's court to local legends and folklore. Bardic Performance is based largely on the real-life situation of being entranced by a particularly good story or song to the point of tuning everything else out, and how being entertained can inspire you to work harder or perform better than you otherwise would.
As for their magic, others have pointed out that it's powered by Charisma, which is considered to be a measure of how imposing or memorable your appearance and personality are, be it because of good/bad looks or simply having the ability to schmooze like no one else. It also always contains a verbal component, which lends itself to the idea that the bard has a sharp, silver tongue, able to talk his/her way out of the worst situations or bring even the most strong willed to tears with their cruel comments. Much of their spell list also implies that they're able to weave their stories or sing their songs with such vividness that they can temporarily alter the fabric of reality around them. Which is why so much of the Bard's spell list is buff/debuff spells, enchantments, and illusions, while having very few blasting spells. The few that do direct damage are spells like Blistering Invective or Sound Burst, which require the Bard to either berate someone or to create some kind of horrendous noise(bad operatic singing!).
Just remember, a properly played Bard can dramatically change the game. Inspire Courage is an amazing class feature, and being a walking, talking library can really save the day at times. Also, one thing that so many people tend to overlook is illusion spells being used offensively. Unless the enemy is a spellcaster and properly identifies the spell as an illusion when it's cast, they should be treating it as a real, solid object. So throw up that Silent Image in combat. Make your illusion be a pit opening up on the ground and watch the enemy avoid that area as if you'd just cast create pit instead. Or throw up a big, illusory wall in a dungeon and watch the enemy stop right in front of it, giving you a few rounds to buff up before engaging.
Of course, the offensive illusions also apply to other spellcasters, but illusions are something the Bard gets access to quite a few of in their limited list, and they can replicate quite a few spells if employed properly. Never underestimate the combination of Silent Image and Ghost Sound.
This might be helpful: Best Bard Books/Films.
If you're wondering how bards work and want some examples, trying checking out some of these stories and movies.
Although the movie's weird, Paul Bettany as Chaucer in A Knight's Tale is a pretty spot-on oratory bard.
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Again, the Bard goes back a good deal farther than the medieval interpretation that most people think it originates from.
Here is kind of where it started as somewhat of a warrior poet who were feared and respected because they could make or break a warriors reputation in the annuls of history: Bard 1
And here is where its ended up today: Bard 2
As was mentioned the guy in 300 could also be considered a Bard. An orator who told the tale of the warriors to inspire and have their legend live on.
edit: Also remember that much of the Bard's "power" is lost with the introduction of the written language. In an oral history culture, you have to imagine how different it is when history is handed down through orators instead of someone writing down their own history to be seen later.
Man, I liked A Knight's Tale.
I also forgot about Chaucer being in it until you mentioned it, and then I remembered how he was the one who forged all the documents for them. Another example of how being a part of a noble's court, even if somewhat tangentially, is a boon is that it lets you see and get familiarized with all sorts of legal documents, which makes creating forgeries easier. Which helps further explain Linguistics being a class skill for Bards.
MilesBeyond wrote: Not like the rules. I know that part. I mean in the game universe. How do they actually work? Why do Bards have their own spell tree? Why do Bards use Charisma to cast spells? How do Bards cast spells at all, and why do they cast like Sorcerers instead of Wizards? Is their performance magical in nature? I mean, the CRB says that their performance creates magical effects.
Sorry for all the questions like this. I haven't really played a Bard since 2e. I love a lot of the changes that have been made, but I don't understand them from a lore perspective, and that makes it difficult to RP. Specifically, Bardic magic. I'm used to Bards just being like Wizards, only advancing far more slowly. Now I have no idea how it looks. I mean, it seems like they draw on innate power, like Sorcerers? But they don't have the whole "special bloodline" thing going on that Sorcerers do. But they're also not memorizing spells the way Wizards do. So where is their magic coming from? Why?
I agree that there are some weak points in the bard fluff. Other spontanious arcane casters have it in the blood boards learn it but cast more like sorceres than like wizards. That suggest that everybody can learn it like that.
The Spell tree i belive comes from boards in stories doing some magic and that magic is not in the fireball casting style.
And the performance 6 seconds of inspirational Dance there and a 12 seconds speak, that only work as the speaker is talking, is Strange.
In the game the rules work very well i think but on in the story part of the game it demands a little extra on the suspension of disbelive.
MattR1986 wrote: Again, the Bard goes back a good deal farther than the medieval interpretation that most people think it originates from.
Here is kind of where it started as somewhat of a warrior poet who were feared and respected because they could make or break a warriors reputation in the annuls of history: Bard 1
And here is where its ended up today: Bard 2
As was mentioned the guy in 300 could also be considered a Bard. An orator who told the tale of the warriors to inspire and have their legend live on.
The bard as a profession goes back as far as human history, since it's basically a storyteller and storytelling has always been something that humanity has done. But the fantasy RPG idea of the bard has largely come from the idea of the bards/minstrels/skalds/scops/etc of the Middle Ages and Renaissance periods. But there's no denying that their isn't some Classical influence in more than a few of the classes.
It really depends on how you want to define bard. The greeks and such had musicians but those weren't really bards imo. There were separate people who wrote down history I.e. herodotus as a "historian" or homer as a storyteller or perfoormed the art of music at festivals. I won't disagree though that d&d originally took the medieval minstrel for their definition of a bard.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MilesBeyond wrote: Not like the rules. I know that part. I mean in the game universe. How do they actually work? Why do Bards have their own spell tree? Why do Bards use Charisma to cast spells? How do Bards cast spells at all, and why do they cast like Sorcerers instead of Wizards? Is their performance magical in nature? I mean, the CRB says that their performance creates magical effects.
Sorry for all the questions like this. I haven't really played a Bard since 2e. I love a lot of the changes that have been made, but I don't understand them from a lore perspective, and that makes it difficult to RP. Specifically, Bardic magic. I'm used to Bards just being like Wizards, only advancing far more slowly. Now I have no idea how it looks. I mean, it seems like they draw on innate power, like Sorcerers? But they don't have the whole "special bloodline" thing going on that Sorcerers do. But they're also not memorizing spells the way Wizards do. So where is their magic coming from? Why?
Read a greater variety of fantasy. Mercedes Lackey might be a particular good place to start. Even the Silmarillion has several instances of music having tremendously powerful effects.... including the creation of the world itself.
In Pathfinder, such people would have been bards (well, except for the lack of magic).
The idea of musicians or poets having some supernatural quality is very old indeed. Odin was a trickster who stole the mead of poetry, and had knowledge as part of his remit. He's not even the original bard though.
Orpheus is a classical Greek hero who was able to charm animals and divert the course of rivers with his music. He used his lyre and singing to prevent the lure of the Sirens - this seems directly analagous to some ingame Bardic performances. (Yup, I ransacked wikipedia for that info)
I'm pretty sure a number of other mythic heroes are also noted as skilled musicians but can't recall many off the top of my head. I read a version of Tristan & Isolde years ago where Tristan was introduced in disguise as a wandering minstrel. There do seem to be common themes of music as a kind of enchantment or suggestion through a number of myths.
How do they actually work?
In general, the rest of your questions go into more detail. If we're talking specifically performances then that has been covered by most answers already, having your own themesong playing in the background makes you work better. There may also be a psychological aspect to it - "Hey, if that guy can sing and dance while he fights then these fifty ogres can't be that difficult to beat."
Why do Bards have their own spell tree?
Bard spells tend to be either things that you would expect a bard to learn to help them perform (e.g. summon instrument) or side effects of what any entertainment might do whether it is distract someone or catch their attention (illusions and enchantments). Some spells like summon monster are harder to justify on a bard list unless you go into stories like The Pied Piper. They probably put the cure spells on just to give the bard more utility.
Why do Bards use Charisma to cast spells?
Entertainers rely on charisma and, as said under bard spell tree question, their spells tend to revolve around entertainment.
How do Bards cast spells at all, and why do they cast like Sorcerers instead of Wizards?
In the world of Pathfinder why would we be surprised that the entertainment industry would take an interest in magic? It's the computer graphics special effects of their world. The Pathfinder Tales book The Blade of Truth had an interesting twist on bards and spontaneous casting; when the main character would learn a spell he would associate it with a song so all he had to do was hum the song to himself to remember how to cast it (though they did treat the character as if he had to prepare some spells in advance). Again, it's an entertainment thing, bards have to be ready to do a performance on request, so they are in the habit of not having to restudy things every day.
Is their performance magical in nature?
Not clearly specified. Bardic performances are different from using the perform skill in that they can only do them so many rounds per day where, theoretcally, a bard can take as many perform skill checks as they like within normal fatigue rules. One could argue that this is due to magic or they could argue that a bardic performance gets it's special bonuses because the bard is really pouring his heart into it and it's harder to keep that up.
There are nearly infinite ways one can use to justify crunch with fluff. In the bards case of spontaneous charisma based casting, I think of them as being more similar to Oracles than Sorcerers. Sorcerers have some component inside them that gives them magic. Oracles and Bards have attracted some outside force that gives them magic. For a bard that force might be some sort of muse, or perhaps even just the Multi-Verse itself, if you like the idea of music and art being intimately connected with creation.
Game mechanics apart, the 1E AD&D bard isn't like the 2E AD&D bard which isn't like the 3e D&D bard which itself isn't exactly like the Pathfinder Bard either.
From the Bard's description, under Spells...
prd wrote: A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list presented in Spell Lists. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (song, recitation, or music)*. *emphasis mine
This last part lead to believe that the Pathfinder bard *must* play a tune (or song, or verse) in order to cast a spell. Therefore, it is using music/rhymes/rhythmics to create magical effect (a rather quick tune in less than 6 seconds, but a tune nonetheless).
One could see this as proto-arcane magic, or some kind of primeval magic from which arcane magic will later be derived when early wizards learned to disconnect the magical patterns from the rhythmics of this primeval magic. The fact that music and songs contains magical powers isn't anything new and is at the root of words like "enchantment" or "incantation".
From this you can pretty much come-up with whatever fluff you want, but unlike the 2E bard who, as a jack-of-all-trades, "guessed" how to cast wizard's spells exactly in the same ways wizards do, the Pathfinder bard uses a different and partially incompatible type of magic.
How do bards work?
Quite well.
(Aside, being reminded that all bards require verbal components, I now picture my archaeologist humming the theme to Raiders of the Lost Ark while casting heroism.)
MilesBeyond wrote: Not like the rules. I know that part. I mean in the game universe. How do they actually work? Why do Bards have their own spell tree? Why do Bards use Charisma to cast spells? How do Bards cast spells at all, and why do they cast like Sorcerers instead of Wizards? Is their performance magical in nature? I mean, the CRB says that their performance creates magical effects.
Sorry for all the questions like this. I haven't really played a Bard since 2e. I love a lot of the changes that have been made, but I don't understand them from a lore perspective, and that makes it difficult to RP. Specifically, Bardic magic. I'm used to Bards just being like Wizards, only advancing far more slowly. Now I have no idea how it looks. I mean, it seems like they draw on innate power, like Sorcerers? But they don't have the whole "special bloodline" thing going on that Sorcerers do. But they're also not memorizing spells the way Wizards do. So where is their magic coming from? Why?
Wherever and whyever you want it to. That's flavor text, which you can explain things however you like. Heck, you can easily do a bard without performance ranks and reflavor his 'performances' into other things if, like me, you think singing during a combat is ridiculous.
Laurefindel wrote: Game mechanics apart, the 1E AD&D bard isn't like the 2E AD&D bard which isn't like the 3e D&D bard which itself isn't exactly like the Pathfinder Bard either.
From the Bard's description, under Spells...
prd wrote: A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list presented in Spell Lists. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (song, recitation, or music)*. *emphasis mine
This last part lead to believe that the Pathfinder bard *must* play a tune (or song, or verse) in order to cast a spell.
That's flavor text. You have to have a verbal compoennt, but it can be whatever you like, including standard wiz/sorc mystical gobbledygook.
MilesBeyond wrote: Not like the rules. I know that part. I mean in the game universe. How do they actually work? Bardic colleges and universities
Purple Dragon Knight wrote: MilesBeyond wrote: Not like the rules. I know that part. I mean in the game universe. How do they actually work? Bardic colleges and universities Yes, they go to the Jullibard School of Music.
MattR1986 wrote: Purple Dragon Knight wrote: MilesBeyond wrote: Not like the rules. I know that part. I mean in the game universe. How do they actually work? Bardic colleges and universities Yes, they go to the Jullibard School of Music. Close :) ...but officially they go to places like these
Thanks a ton for the replies everyone, especially gnrrrg. It's helped a lot.
I don't really have an issue with music being able to shape reality or have magical effects, as that's a pretty common trope in fantasy. However, the notion of any Joe Blow who picks up an instrument being able to do it, and the notion of the magic caused by the instrument being suspiciously identical to Mage spells, was a bit much for me.
I'm beginning to formulate a way to see it that makes sense to me:
Bards, being devoted to many different skills, choose to learn magic, as well. However, most Bards have neither the temperament nor the opportunity to learn spells as Wizards do, and lack the mystical empowerment that grants Sorcerers their abilities. As a result, seeing magic as a sort of performance, Bards choose a few select spells that they permanently commit to memory, which they are then able to cast on a whim. The challenge in doing so means that Bards rarely have the opportunity to learn new spells (spells only gained at level up), and also that particularly complex or involved spells that would be too arduous to memorize will be forever beyond their reach without more rigorous study (Bards only being able to cast certain spells; Bards not being able to cast level 7+ spells).
While the Bard always has spells at his disposal, they are nonetheless draining to cast (limited spells/day), and once his energy has been depleted, he must rest before he can summon the strength to wield magic again.
I dunno, to me this makes more sense and seems more plausible than "played his flute to summon a dimensional portal to teleport short distances." I mean, yeah, okay, I guess when magic is involved, talking plausibility seems a little silly.
In any case, this makes it much easier to visualize the Bard in my head.
I also prefer to think of Bardic Performances as mundane rather than magical. Pumping up your allies or intimidating your enemies through pounding on war drums or reciting a general's pre-battle speech from a famous play makes sense to me, and is easier to visualize than having them magically influence people.
Laurefindel wrote:
One could see this as proto-arcane magic, or some kind of primeval magic from which arcane magic will later be derived when early wizards learned to disconnect the magical patterns from the rhythmics of this primeval magic. The fact that music and songs contains magical powers isn't anything new and is at the root of words like "enchantment" or "incantation".
From this you can pretty much come-up with whatever fluff you want, but unlike the 2E bard who, as a jack-of-all-trades, "guessed" how to cast wizard's spells exactly in the same ways wizards do, the Pathfinder bard uses a different and partially incompatible type of magic.
Expanding upon this, there was a 3.5 Bard PrC Seeker of the Song that (working on sketchy memory here, and currently at work) the fluff was about unlocking primal music that was in essence the magic of the world. It was in the Complete Arcane, I think.
Diodric wrote: Laurefindel wrote:
One could see this as proto-arcane magic, or some kind of primeval magic from which arcane magic will later be derived when early wizards learned to disconnect the magical patterns from the rhythmics of this primeval magic. The fact that music and songs contains magical powers isn't anything new and is at the root of words like "enchantment" or "incantation".
From this you can pretty much come-up with whatever fluff you want, but unlike the 2E bard who, as a jack-of-all-trades, "guessed" how to cast wizard's spells exactly in the same ways wizards do, the Pathfinder bard uses a different and partially incompatible type of magic.
Expanding upon this, there was a 3.5 Bard PrC Seeker of the Song that (working on sketchy memory here, and currently at work) the fluff was about unlocking primal music that was in essence the magic of the world. It was in the Complete Arcane, I think. Yes it was. And it was awesome.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MilesBeyond wrote: Thanks a ton for the replies everyone, especially gnrrrg. It's helped a lot.
I don't really have an issue with music being able to shape reality or have magical effects, as that's a pretty common trope in fantasy. However, the notion of any Joe Blow who picks up an instrument being able to do it, and the notion of the magic caused by the instrument being suspiciously identical to Mage spells, was a bit much for me.
A Bard isn't any "Joe Blow". He's a person of magical talent who's probably as rare as a Sorcerer. If you still have a problem with this, simply don't allow them in your campaigns.
LazarX wrote: MilesBeyond wrote: Thanks a ton for the replies everyone, especially gnrrrg. It's helped a lot.
I don't really have an issue with music being able to shape reality or have magical effects, as that's a pretty common trope in fantasy. However, the notion of any Joe Blow who picks up an instrument being able to do it, and the notion of the magic caused by the instrument being suspiciously identical to Mage spells, was a bit much for me.
A Bard isn't any "Joe Blow". He's a person of magical talent who's probably as rare as a Sorcerer. If you still have a problem with this, simply don't allow them in your campaigns. In fact, I think I'm interested in a world where a bard is basically a very specific sort of sorcerer. Someone born with "the music of the spheres" in their blood. They hear the primal music ringing in their ears, and their heart beats with the rhythm of creation ...
LazarX wrote: MilesBeyond wrote: Thanks a ton for the replies everyone, especially gnrrrg. It's helped a lot.
I don't really have an issue with music being able to shape reality or have magical effects, as that's a pretty common trope in fantasy. However, the notion of any Joe Blow who picks up an instrument being able to do it, and the notion of the magic caused by the instrument being suspiciously identical to Mage spells, was a bit much for me.
A Bard isn't any "Joe Blow". He's a person of magical talent who's probably as rare as a Sorcerer. If you still have a problem with this, simply don't allow them in your campaigns. Is he? Where are you getting that from? I've never gotten that impression from, well, anything.
Does the Street Performer archetype count as a "Joe Blow" because you could argue yeah
On the bright side, this means you can create powerful arcane casters who aren't even aware that they're casting (waddya mean dancing lights aren't supposed to appear around me when I sing?), which is pretty amusing.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
MattR1986 wrote: Because when I see THIS I instantly think "badass" How about this?
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
He looks like a villain in a second generation Aladdin TV show.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Oh man I loved watching that after school.
A very odd and specific reference I gave but I think it fits well. I also don't see what makes that character bardy, he looks like he could be any number of classes.
Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MilesBeyond wrote: LazarX wrote: MilesBeyond wrote: Thanks a ton for the replies everyone, especially gnrrrg. It's helped a lot.
I don't really have an issue with music being able to shape reality or have magical effects, as that's a pretty common trope in fantasy. However, the notion of any Joe Blow who picks up an instrument being able to do it, and the notion of the magic caused by the instrument being suspiciously identical to Mage spells, was a bit much for me.
A Bard isn't any "Joe Blow". He's a person of magical talent who's probably as rare as a Sorcerer. If you still have a problem with this, simply don't allow them in your campaigns. Is he? Where are you getting that from? I've never gotten that impression from, well, anything. One thing he's a member of an adventuring class. Just on that basis, he's a step out of the ordinary. Any commoner or expert with a decent charisma can pick up a few ranks in Perform and earn some silver for a living. (some of the bar musicians or street musicians are in fact such people) But that won't give him the Performance abilities or magical spells of a Bard.
TriOmegaZero wrote: MattR1986 wrote: Because when I see THIS I instantly think "badass" How about this? BADASS! The baddest ass of them all.
Great pic.
One thing about dealing with spells is that the name of the spell can be thought of as a quick reference to the spell effect rather than to a specific spell.
When a cleric and a wizard cast Light they are not casting the same spell. The cleric is saying a prayer, the wizard is reciting incantations. Two different spells that have the same effect described in the rules as Light. This is made clear under the scroll rules where we are told that an arcane caster has to do a Use Magic Device check to use a scroll scribed by a divine caster even if that spell would be on the arcane caster's list and a divine caster has to do the same with scrolls scribed by arcane casters.
So instead of saying that a bard is casting from a wizard list you can think of it as a bard creating a similar effect with a different spell. True, the scroll rules would allow a bard to use a scroll scribed by a wizard without taking UMD, but both being arcane casters there would probably be aspects to their spells that are recognizable enough for them to make it without a check.
The word "fluff" has come up in a few responses. As a roleplaying game, some players use the fluff to get into character. Getting rid of the fluff is like cutting all the descriptions out of a book; don't bother describing the characters, just tell me what they did.
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