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If I have cast, say, frostbite and I'm level 5 I get 5 touches.
If after using 2 of them I decide to grapple someone, what happens to the remaining charges?
Still available?
Go Nova?
Lost?
Good question. Dotting for interest.
I think it would ve one as it says touching is a standard action, so you could continue to successfully graplle and discharge charges, but I could see it the other way too.
....I can't believe I've never heard this question before.
I can imagine it going one of two ways:
*Either you spend another charge every time you make a roll to maintain the grapple
*Or you retain the charge, because you need to stop touching before you can "touch" again.
....I can't believe I've never heard this question before.
I can imagine it going one of two ways:
*Either you spend another charge every time you make a roll to maintain the grapple
*Or you retain the charge, because you need to stop touching before you can "touch" again.
Sorry I thought someone would know the answer straight off the bat and I'm at work so searching would have taken too long.
If I have cast, say, frostbite and I'm level 5 I get 5 touches.
If after using 2 of them I decide to grapple someone, what happens to the remaining charges?Still available?
Go Nova?
Lost?
Remember that it is a specific hand that you are using to deliver the touch spell. It would be a standard armed attack VS touch each round to deliver them if they are winning the grapple.
When grappling in reality it is fairly rare to use your EXTREMELY DELICATE fingers and hand to hold onto someone. Typically you want to put them into a head-hold, or use those nice huge joins of your Elbow and Shoulder to do the bulk of the holding.
If you don't believe me on how delicate your fingers are you can simulate a sudden jerk of someone trying to break free by pulling one of your fingers suddenly to the side or by quickly jerking one of your fingers with 100 lbs of force--don't Actually do this unless you like being in a hospital.--
The point is that you wont be holding onto someone, and these spells can only activate once per round. So at best you would be auto-discharging them each round as a melee touch attack.
In agreement here with Taku...I've wrestled and had a tiny amount of judo training...and in the process had a few fingers wrenched when not holding correctly
Also for the discharging of the spell
If I have cast, say, frostbite and I'm level 5 I get 5 touches.
If after using 2 of them I decide to grapple someone, what happens to the remaining charges?Still available?
Go Nova?
Lost?Remember that it is a specific hand that you are using to deliver the touch spell. It would be a standard armed attack VS touch each round to deliver them if they are winning the grapple.
When grappling in reality it is fairly rare to use your EXTREMELY DELICATE fingers and hand to hold onto someone. Typically you want to put them into a head-hold, or use those nice huge joins of your Elbow and Shoulder to do the bulk of the holding.
If you don't believe me on how delicate your fingers are you can simulate a sudden jerk of someone trying to break free by pulling one of your fingers suddenly to the side or by quickly jerking one of your fingers with 100 lbs of force--don't Actually do this unless you like being in a hospital.--The point is that you wont be holding onto someone, and these spells can only activate once per round. So at best you would be auto-discharging them each round as a melee touch attack.
That suggests using the "do damage" grappling option.
Yes, I asked a very similar question to James Jacobs about holding charges with Frostbite. I was asking if holding a charge as a wild shaped animal would "Detonate" the spell since I'm walking on my "hands." My DM at the time argued you couldn't hold a charge in an animal form since you are "touching" the ground with the paw that also does the attack.
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Jacobs responded:
"The rules are indeed assuming you're holding a charge with your hands. When you stretch the situation to include unanticipated things like being a tiger in Natural Shape with a held charge... you need to adjust.
If that tiger picked something up in its paw, it would discharge the spell. Walking is not the same as picking something up."
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So, for me, grappling is similar to "picking something up" and it would set off the held charge.
Remember that it is a specific hand that you are using to deliver the touch spell. It would be a standard armed attack VS touch each round to deliver them if they are winning the grapple.
Some people dispute that the charge is held in a particular extremity. I personally believe that you do have to choose what extremity you're holding the charge in. Since you can deliver the held charge with unarmed strikes, for example, you *could* choose to hold the charge with/deliver the charges with a headbutt.
What's not addressed by RAW is someone attempting to FORCE someone else to discharge a held charge into something in particular or even the attacker himself. (example: I'm trying to protect a squishy that you just missed with a touch attack. I don't think I can take you out with my melee attack before you can make another attempt, so I instead intentionally discharge your held charge into myself, relying on my resist energy <type> that I've got from my ring).
For balance purposes I fall on the side of grappling does not instantly set off all charges. Rather you must still make a successful grapple check, and if you do you can automatically deal damage with a natural attack or one handed weapon. Which could include a held charge.
Otherwise you could get a situation where you cast Frostbite and get lots of charges and then grapple the enemy dealing incredible damage. Imagien a 10th level character capable of casting this spell. Likely a magus. 10d6+100+fatigue if you set of all charges just for grappling your opponent. Now, the damage is non-lethal, but it's still too much. Non-lethal damage renders an opponent just as unconcious and out of the fight as lethal damage does. It just wont kill them, which is largely irrelevant since you can kill them after combat.
So the grapple check each round would set off a charge, no need to hit as grappling is an attack.
I'm actually applying this to a Hexcrafter/White Haired Witch situation where my hair is actually grappling - I don't gain the grapple condition here.
So if I had the Constrict ability also, would the charge apply as soon as I deal constrict damage? - I am touching it sort of - my hair is constricting and my hair is my means to attack.
So the grapple check each round would set off a charge, no need to hit as grappling is an attack.
I'm actually applying this to a Hexcrafter/White Haired Witch situation where my hair is actually grappling - I don't gain the grapple condition here.
So if I had the Constrict ability also, would the charge apply as soon as I deal constrict damage? - I am touching it sort of - my hair is constricting and my hair is my means to attack.
Let me clarify my post on this topic are only my opinion. I don't think how held charges work in situations such as a grapple has been clarified by the developers. My argument is only from a balance perspective.
However, I believe you could use your hair to hold the charge, and when you successfully make a grapple check you apply a single held charge if any.
I don't know how I would apply constrict.
Anyone else?
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Well, here is what the PRD says about Holding a Charge...
Holding the Charge: If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.
James Jacobs comment that the charge is 'held' in the hands, so it seams that anything that touches the caster's hands makes the spell go off (including being in a grapple, since one arm/hand is 'tied up/entangled, etc')
The important bit is this:
If you rule that the charges all go off then you basically turn 1 cast of Frostbite or Chill Touch into X casts.
I'm more familiar with Chill Touch.
1d6 or so negative energy damage and potentially 1 STR damage (for neg's str dmg). According to memory you have as many charges as you have caster level.
So if a DM rules that this novas due to the touch requirements being permanently met during grapples this could translate to 20d6 negative energy damage and potentially 20 str damage.
As you can see the above makes a lvl 1 spell stupidly over-powered. So, don't do that. Instead make it a "dealing damage on a grapple" or a touch attack.
I don't think you are going to find something in RAW that specifically covers this because I think it might be beyond the scope of what was intended.
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I think we can all agree that "all charges discharge immediately" is neither a logical consequence of the rules nor a desired outcome and put that argument to rest.
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James Jacobs comment that the charge is 'held' in the hands, so it seams that anything that touches the caster's hands makes the spell go off (including being in a grapple, since one arm/hand is 'tied up/entangled, etc')
It has been pointed out in this thread that walking on the limb that holds the charge does not discharge it. The assumption is that the charge is on your hand, but if your hand is a foot, then accommodations must be made for the unusual circumstance. A humanoid is able to move around and perform one handed activities while holding a charge. An animal should be able to walk around, but may not be able to perform activities or some other compromise depending on the GM and the circumstance. At best you can only get a "better than crazy" answer about this and try to be consistent with your interpretations.
Also, James Jacobs is a terrible source for rules answers.
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Also, James Jacobs is a terrible source for rules answers.
There is no need to bash James Jacobs. His opinion is just as viable as anyone else's. Just because you don't agree with him does not mean he is terrible.
If this was a question for PFS, then Mike Brock or the FAQ team would probably have to provide an answer. Since this question is in the homebrew forum, then anything goes.
If we are talking about home games, it sounds to me like GMs will need to decide for themselves how much control casters will have over their charged spell. Does the caster have to willingly discharge the spell? Can any contact with the caster's body discharge the spell or is it just contact with the hands?
I had not thought about it before seeing this thread. For my game, I will say that the charge is held in the caster's hands and if his hands touch anything, the spell is discharged.
It is simply not true that in real grappling it is "extremely rare" to use your hands or fingers to place holds. Quite the opposite.
In Brazilian jiu-jitsu the hands are almost always in the mix, even with leg-focused techniques such as triangles and omoplatas. And so far as judo is concerned, I am trying to imagine a judoka making throws without his or her hands and fingers.
Try to initiate a pin without using the hands. It is possible, but much more difficult than with the hands.
Arm bars? Most (not all) involve holding the arm/wrist with one's hands like the end of a lever with the hips as a fulcrum
Yes, the fingers are delicate (one of mine hurt for months after getting it stuck on a baseball choke), but they get injured precisely because they are used so often. Yes, some techniques can involve using only the legs or elbow crooks, etc., but in game if a player were to say that he was initiating a grapple without hands they should at a minimum receive a -4 or more to their CMB.
Also, I agree that it would be ludicrous and massively overpowered to permit the one touch/level touch spell to fully discharge in one round--yikes! Everyone would roll grapplers if that were to be permitted.
Also, James Jacobs is a terrible source for rules answers.There is no need to bash James Jacobs. His opinion is just as viable as anyone else's. Just because you don't agree with him does not mean he is terrible.
James Jacobs is a great ideas guy, and comes across as a very decent human being. But his grasp of the intricate details and grey areas of the ruleset is far from stellar, and by his own admission, it's not really the part of the game or the job he cares about.
A white haired witch can deliver the charges with its hair - not hands.
A white haired witch can deliver the charges with its hair - not hands.
Easy. Breezy. Beautiful. Coverwitch.