In the Legacy of Fire AP you can pursue a relationship with a harpy.That was really a joke though. She was a hideously ugly, smelly creature with rotting buck teeth and so on, who flirted with the male pc's. They could flirt back to manipulate her but that was about it. She wasn't presented as a serious romance option.
Funny thing is, there are three or four separate pictures explicitly said to be of her (one of which got used in the Bestiary, so technically she's the Iconic Harpy), and she's not ugly in any of them. The teeth thing might be correct, since she never smiles in them, and she has quite a few scars on her face, but the only really ugly thing about her is typical Harpy hygiene (that is to say, none) and alignment, which are malleable.
To, uh, keep the 'mount' around. Apparently.
Creative Director
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#1: Do you think it's possible that a monstrous humanoid could actually fall in love with a non-monster, in the Pathfinder setting?
#2: Do you think such a character actually fits in the world that is Golarion?
#3: Have you ever made use of such a couple, or encountered such a couple, in your Pathfinder games?
I'm a little late to the party, but...
1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.
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Creative Director
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Funny thing is, there are three or four separate pictures explicitly said to be of her (one of which got used in the Bestiary, so technically she's the Iconic Harpy), and she's not ugly in any of them. The teeth thing might be correct, since she never smiles in them, and she has quite a few scars on her face, but the only really ugly thing about her is typical Harpy hygiene (that is to say, none) and alignment, which are malleable.In the Legacy of Fire AP you can pursue a relationship with a harpy.That was really a joke though. She was a hideously ugly, smelly creature with rotting buck teeth and so on, who flirted with the male pc's. They could flirt back to manipulate her but that was about it. She wasn't presented as a serious romance option.
Nope; it wasn't a joke at all. The idea of her becoming romantically involved with a PC is deliberate and a really interesting possibility in that campaign.
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I greatly dislike the Always Chaotic Evil BS that has been a holdover (that should be thrown in the garbage) since the first Monster Manual back in the 1970s.
I think a lot of folks read too much into that "always chaotic evil" bit. Which, by the way, is phrasing we deliberately abandoned from 3rd edition for our monsters.
Taking orcs as an example... On Golarion, the vast majority of orcs are indeed chaotic evil. That's the norm for orcs. It's not a biological immutable truth though. You can have orcs of other alignments. But the norm for their society is chaotic evil. If that wasn't the norm, I really doubt that the idea of non-evil orcs would be that compelling, frankly.
It's important to remember that a lot of what we publish is presenting those norms, NOT the exceptions. We publish countless OPTIONS for those exceptions to occur, but we deliberately avoid making them the norm because they're more compelling if they're not. That way, when we want to play with those expectations and, say, make a half orc paladin... it has a bigger impact than if we'd just put a human paladin in that role.
And of course, we don't actually make your PCs for you, so that's an entire angle of the game that you DON'T see us playing with in public at all. Incidentally, that's also why it seems like we focus more on building evil stuff or bad guys, and why there's not more good-guy nations on Golarion, and why most monsters aren't good aligned.
Glad you popped in James.
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To, uh, keep the 'mount' around. Apparently.
::blink::
::blink::
I can always count on you to 'bring the weird' Tacticslion, you know that?
Thank you, sincerely.
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If that wasn't the norm, I really doubt that the idea of non-evil orcs would be that compelling, frankly.
Personally, the Warcraft/Skyrim model of orcs are the most compelling orcs. :)
As is, the exceptions tend to get forced into a "Drizzt clone" role in their origins and how they're typically percieved by players.
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Out of curiosity, what do folks generally prefer when this more monstrous form of interspecies romance occurs in their game? A Love Redeems type backstory? A Villainous Love type backstory?
It could go either way, and other ways besides. Between the two though, do have a preference for the former.
Or do you use it to highlight the oddness/multiculturalism/depravity of a given city/region - after all, one would expect to see this kind of thing a lot more in, say, Sigil than in a random village.
Partially to build up a feel for the culture of the area. Definitely see some planar cities having that being quite frequent or even the norm in some cases.(some settlements within Shelyn's realm might be a good example of this)
Going with the specific orc/human crossover, I'd build up some communities with their own hybrid culture to make it easier for half-orc players taht wanted to have consensual origins and a cultural background of their own to pull from. Doing that with Averaka(small orc culture was already there, half-orc culture of Averaka spins off of that) and the orc tribes of Nirmathas(descended from an exodus from Belkzen led by a Sarenraen orc oracle), each with their own spin on their forked culture and differing relationships with the humans in the area, some intermingled without too much more trouble than most races, some with more tension between them. So they don't just get that cultural background to play off of, they also don't have get too convoluted in order to have their half-orc origins.
Combining races into a single community can help inspire some really fantastic, exotic cultures too, with or without romance being taken into consideration. Take the kobolds of Zobeck for example, and how they operate and how the city is changed by their presence.
I've always had a soft spot for coastline communities of landdwellers living right alongside aquatics(and amphibious folks too) and the strange sorts of symbiotic relatinships they could have. Like what shared fashions could go back and forth between them? How do they build their homes? How is accessability enabled going both ways when possible? What does each side depend on the other for? Stuff like that. :)
I greatly dislike the Always Chaotic Evil BS that has been a holdover (that should be thrown in the garbage) since the first Monster Manual back in the 1970s.I think a lot of folks read too much into that "always chaotic evil" bit. Which, by the way, is phrasing we deliberately abandoned from 3rd edition for our monsters.
Taking orcs as an example... On Golarion, the vast majority of orcs are indeed chaotic evil. That's the norm for orcs. It's not a biological immutable truth though. You can have orcs of other alignments. But the norm for their society is chaotic evil. If that wasn't the norm, I really doubt that the idea of non-evil orcs would be that compelling, frankly.
It's important to remember that a lot of what we publish is presenting those norms, NOT the exceptions. We publish countless OPTIONS for those exceptions to occur, but we deliberately avoid making them the norm because they're more compelling if they're not. That way, when we want to play with those expectations and, say, make a half orc paladin... it has a bigger impact than if we'd just put a human paladin in that role.
And of course, we don't actually make your PCs for you, so that's an entire angle of the game that you DON'T see us playing with in public at all. Incidentally, that's also why it seems like we focus more on building evil stuff or bad guys, and why there's not more good-guy nations on Golarion, and why most monsters aren't good aligned.
I definitely understand. My biggest gripe with portraying only the Chaotic Evil orc society is a half-breed of them is an available core race. I can understand having creatures with CE societies, even if I don't like it at all. But that's the biggest reason I dislike having that for the orcs.
But, I don't think we should make another thread into this argument/debate again, as I am sure you get annoyed having to say that again and again. I know I would.
I would like to see more monstrous romance options in some of the newer APs. Hint hint wink wink nudge nudge.
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** spoiler omitted **
What do you think of Outsea in the River Kingdoms? Seems like that would right up your alley. They have friendly Chuuls, and the culture is certainly unique. Hail Danglosa! (Just in case)
Out of curiosity, what do folks generally prefer when this more monstrous form of interspecies romance occurs in their game? A Love Redeems type backstory? A Villainous Love type backstory? Or do you use it to highlight the oddness/multiculturalism/depravity of a given city/region - after all, one would expect to see this kind of thing a lot more in, say, Sigil than in a random village.
For me it's really a case-by-case basis. I do like a nice mix though. Having only one type is less fun. That's for story purposes. Personally, as in in my head which do I just prefer, I like 'normal' romance I guess. No villiany romance ala vampire shows. No love redeems like Beauty and the Beast. I like mine to be more How I Met Your Mother. It's a long story, with plenty of weird bits, but without too much angst.
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If that wasn't the norm, I really doubt that the idea of non-evil orcs would be that compelling, frankly.Personally, the Warcraft/Skyrim model of orcs are the most compelling orcs. :)
And the fact that those two properties are so much more well-known and popular than Pathfinder is a good reason to do something different, in my mind.
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Creative Director
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I definitely understand. My biggest gripe with portraying only the Chaotic Evil orc society is a half-breed of them is an available core race. I can understand having creatures with CE societies, even if I don't like it at all. But that's the biggest reason I dislike having that for the orcs.
But, I don't think we should make another thread into this argument/debate again, as I am sure you get annoyed having to say that again and again. I know I would.
I would like to see more monstrous romance options in some...
well...
Half orcs breed true, so that's a way to get more half orcs out there.
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I mean, orc-raised half-orcs *have* to be either token evil teammates, very dark anti-heroes, or Drizz't style rebels, since all detailed orc societies are Chaotic Evil cesspits of hatred, violence and abuse. Human-raised half-orcs come from a background as being shunned and hated and "unable even to hold normal jobs" (ARG, page 51) in many places. And even if they were raised by half-orc parents themselves? They're still really no better off than if they were raised by humans. They maybe had a bit more love and affection growing up, but their background is still predominantly one of bullying and violence.
Why?
Even demons can be good (WotR - spoilers so no linky). And considering demons are litteraly cosmic evil made incarnate - if a creature that is formed from chaos and evil will can change it's spots what makes some words on a page about how the average Half Orc lives manditory for a player?
You'll note that 'officially' Dark Elves are evil - however look over to the Rise of the Runelords area of the forum and read the journals from Nobodyshome and you'll see a Dark Elf paladin with a believable backstory and great role playing - because the player didn't become trapped by words on a page and took the story to the GM.
Don't use the books to trap yourself - even history finds examples of those who stood out among the 'norm' even in the midst of horror (watch Schindler's list for example).
You don't make all Elves good in your stories because they are described generally that way do you? Because they aren't (Second Darkness AP) - and Half Orcs have shining representation as loyal, and pure good NPCs who wouldn't think of being a bully (Wrath of the Righteous - again).
You just have to take the huge generalizations in the book as what they are - describing many but not all.
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I mean, orc-raised half-orcs *have* to be either token evil teammates, very dark anti-heroes, or Drizz't style rebels, since all detailed orc societies are Chaotic Evil cesspits of hatred, violence and abuse.
I should let my players know they're doing it wrong :)
In all seriousness, though, not everyone who grows up in a bad environment ends up as either a carbon copy of their oppressors or a paragon of justice. Those are the ones that stories get told about, to be sure, but there's a spectrum of options in between.
The whole range of neutral motivations are still available. People who grew up in bad environments have all the more reason to seek after things like food, shelter, acceptance, wealth, love, safety, and personal power.
Unless leaving for purely selfish reasons makes you a "Drizz't style rebel," there's a huge gap in your list of options.
This thread totally makes me want to read Pirate's Honor.
I totally read Pirate's Honor because of this thread. It was quite good and handled the romance angle very well.
Cheers!
Landon
Regarding Nobodyshome Drow paladin, I think there is still the backlash against Drizzt and the 'Outcast from their evil society who is rebelling against their evil nature' where yet another good drow pops up. Even though in Second Darkness, the writers wanted to get back to evil drow, it was inevitable that good drow showed up.
If someone wants to stick with all evil all the time demons, then one can go with the Ares Magica lore where they are extensions of the Abyss/Hell and thus there is nothing to redeem. No larva/lemure center that can be reawoken and Undead are just shells filled with negative energy.
Drizzt syndrome is a direct consequence of making an entire race evil. Whenever all members can be good or evil, the "one good drow" issue escapes, since it is unnecessary.
When everyone is special, no one is special :D
Drizzt syndrome is a direct consequence of making an entire race evil. Whenever all members can be good or evil, the "one good drow" issue escapes, since it is unnecessary.
When everyone is special, no one is special :D
Everyone is important. We're all special snowflakes :)
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Regarding Nobodyshome Drow paladin, I think there is still the backlash against Drizzt and the 'Outcast from their evil society who is rebelling against their evil nature' where yet another good drow pops up. Even though in Second Darkness, the writers wanted to get back to evil drow, it was inevitable that good drow showed up.
If someone wants to stick with all evil all the time demons, then one can go with the Ares Magica lore where they are extensions of the Abyss/Hell and thus there is nothing to redeem. No larva/lemure center that can be reawoken and Undead are just shells filled with negative energy.
Perhaps - but in his players case it makes a great backstory - I think I might have
If regular elves
I think the idea that Paladins would take in an orphan pretty much on par with how *most* people see Paladins as operating (see any paladin thread) so why not?
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Regarding Nobodyshome Drow paladin, I think there is still the backlash against Drizzt and the 'Outcast from their evil society who is rebelling against their evil nature' where yet another good drow pops up. Even though in Second Darkness, the writers wanted to get back to evil drow, it was inevitable that good drow showed up.
If someone wants to stick with all evil all the time demons, then one can go with the Ares Magica lore where they are extensions of the Abyss/Hell and thus there is nothing to redeem. No larva/lemure center that can be reawoken and Undead are just shells filled with negative energy.
Perhaps - but in his players case it makes a great backstory - I think I might have ** spoiler omitted ** at the end of the campaign.
If regular elves ** spoiler omitted ** then it makes sense that it could happen.
I think the idea that Paladins would take in an orphan pretty much on par with how *most* people see Paladins as operating (see any paladin thread) so why not?
Not to burst your bubble, but James Jacobs has stated that the reverse doesn't happen. Your game your show but I though you would like to know.
Not to burst your bubble, but James Jacobs has stated that the reverse doesn't happen. Your game your show but I though you would like to know.
Yeah I know that - officially anyway - although redemption of the drow sounds like a hell of a campaign idea - even adventure path worthy. :)
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I've always had a soft spot for coastline communities of landdwellers living right alongside aquatics(and amphibious folks too) and the strange sorts of symbiotic relatinships they could have. Like what shared fashions could go back and forth between them? How do they build their homes? How is accessability enabled going both ways when possible? What does each side depend on the other for? Stuff like that. :)
This makes a lot of sense.
Because each neighbouring habitat is hostile to one of the two races, there is little reason to fight for territory.Apart from competition for fishing stocks, there is no reason each could not, or would not, farm or create what the other needs.
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I definitely understand. My biggest gripe with portraying only the Chaotic Evil orc society is a half-breed of them is an available core race. I can understand having creatures with CE societies, even if I don't like it at all. But that's the biggest reason I dislike having that for the orcs.
well...
Half orcs breed true, so that's a way to get more half orcs out there.
...Which does absolutely nothing to alleviate the actual complaint here, which is that half-orcs have no real cultural background besides being shunned and bullied to draw upon, whether they are first-generation hybrids or the latest in a long line of half-orcs.
Even the Advanced Race Guide openly states (page 51) that half-orcs brought up in the rare ghettoes and hamlets of their own kind tend to be no better off than the ones raised amongst humans or orcs, as "bullying and physical confrontation comes easy to a people who have been raised with few other examples of behavior".
That's the thing that people keep complaining about; there may be token lines hinting at the existence of half-orcs who can't be pigeonholed as victims of prejudice and abuse, token evil teammembers or Drizz't style cultural rebels, but the bulk of all official media on actually playing a half-orc focuses pretty much exclusively on those options.
I mean, orc-raised half-orcs *have* to be either token evil teammates, very dark anti-heroes, or Drizz't style rebels, since all detailed orc societies are Chaotic Evil cesspits of hatred, violence and abuse. Human-raised half-orcs come from a background as being shunned and hated and "unable even to hold normal jobs" (ARG, page 51) in many places. And even if they were raised by half-orc parents themselves? They're still really no better off than if they were raised by humans. They maybe had a bit more love and affection growing up, but their background is still predominantly one of bullying and violence.
Surprisingly, life still sucks for certain ethnic groups in Golarion. And in Half-Orcs' case, it will probably continue to be so as long as Belkizen is a thing.
But that doesn't mean they can't fight it. Indeed, there's an Island in the Land of the Linnorm Kings where Half-Orcs are working to carve out their own land peacefully... well, as peaceful as things get in Vikingville, anyway.
As far as the Jorogumo is concerned, there's no indication that they have to implant the egg in their mate. One could mate with a man she didn't want to kill, and then implant the egg in a pig or something.
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In my campaign, a NPC serpentfolk female and a PC fell in love. At first, while she was in human guise - I had Samaritha Beldusk from Second Darkness actually being a serpentfolk, mashing up with Serpent's Skull and the Freeport Trilogy a bit for a pirate campaign.
The PC's nickname was Serpent, he had a snake animal companion, and took the snake shaman variant. When she was revealed to be a serpentfolk she fled, thinking he'd reject her, but he tracked her down and said "look at me, if there's someone out there who'd be into snake ladies I'm that guy!"
Eventually they decided to get married and try to have a child; they ended up using the magical beach-rock in From Shore To Sea on their honeymoon to try to conceive - it worked! They have an egg they are keeping in a purpose-built sea chest. (Again, using the Freeport take on serpentfolk, so eggs instead of live birth.)
More at Reavers on the Seas of Fate.