paizo.com Recent Posts in Why does everyone hate summoners?paizo.com Recent Posts in Why does everyone hate summoners?2014-04-06T01:24:25Z2014-04-06T01:24:25ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?KestrelZhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#2002014-04-14T13:49:09Z2014-04-14T13:49:09Z<p>To beat a dead horse -</p>
<p>Personally, I love the Summoner class, and find it on par with the Witch class for "new" Shenanigans. It does require a well-prepared player (or GM for NPC Summoners).</p>
<p>Why the hate? It is powerful, and requires that the person running a Summoner is experienced enough to handle action economy efficiency (fancy way of saying, has their stuff together and can zip through their turn quickly) AND isn't a jerk and hogs the spotlight in any conflict.</p>
<p>Another problem is the Eidolon is static. If PCs are made by a point buy system, a high point buy campaign may make the Eidolon obsolete past 10th level. On a low point-buy campaign, the Eidolon overshadows Martial PCs. It's kind of a jerk move to play a mage that has a built in cohort that overshadows a martial PC (Acceptable if said party is short of Martial PCs).</p>To beat a dead horse -
Personally, I love the Summoner class, and find it on par with the Witch class for "new" Shenanigans. It does require a well-prepared player (or GM for NPC Summoners).
Why the hate? It is powerful, and requires that the person running a Summoner is experienced enough to handle action economy efficiency (fancy way of saying, has their stuff together and can zip through their turn quickly) AND isn't a jerk and hogs the spotlight in any conflict.
Another problem is the...KestrelZ2014-04-14T13:49:09ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Azothathhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1992014-04-11T07:00:10Z2014-04-11T07:00:10Z<p>Summoner's -
<br />
well everyone has to have an axe to grind and a bandwagon to throw chum out of... and this is the complainternet...</p>
<p>usually I just have my Gunslinger shoot the Summoner and it's all over...</p>
<p>=====
<br />
French Rat, "Who are any of us?... Zis iz zee essential question. To live is to exist, and yet to exist is to live. Yet...
<br />
Dale the chipmunk, "oh boy, I thought I was confused..."
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Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers, "Le Purrfect Crime".</p>Summoner's -
well everyone has to have an axe to grind and a bandwagon to throw chum out of... and this is the complainternet...
usually I just have my Gunslinger shoot the Summoner and it's all over...
=====
French Rat, "Who are any of us?... Zis iz zee essential question. To live is to exist, and yet to exist is to live. Yet...
Dale the chipmunk, "oh boy, I thought I was confused..."
Chip & Dale Rescue Rangers, "Le Purrfect Crime".Azothath2014-04-11T07:00:10ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Damian Magecrafthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1982014-04-14T05:29:11Z2014-04-11T05:09:00Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">chaoseffect wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Snorter wrote:</div><blockquote><p>But one would think that any player wanting to play a Summoner would have the common sense to carry out those preparations?
</p>
</blockquote><p>You would think so, but sadly that's often not the case in my experience... not dealing with summons, as the only summoners I've seen played have been done by experienced/considerate players, but spells.
<p>I'm having flashbacks now to the people who play casters and refuse to write down the general details of what their g#&•$%n spells do. Ever session this one guy who was playing a Bard would try to use the cantrip Lullaby to put enemies to sleep in combat. And then we'd explain the spell does not do that. And then he would try it again. And again. And he would never use Inspire Courage on our mostly melee party. I don't know why this sticks with me, but the unreasonable anger it inspired in me lasts.</p>
<p>Another guy playing a blaster... each time we ask for his DCs he has to stop and stumble and we have to ask his casting stat, do you have these feat, what about that item, and oh my god just write it next to the spell. Move over I'll do it for you! Just don't waste 5 minutes on this ever again!</p>
<p>I feel a little bit better now. </blockquote><p>This is an issue?
</p>
My personal Character sheets have <i>every single</i> Spell, class ability, skill, etc... written out in their entirety (with book and page citation noted should the GM ask) just so I do not have to constantly flip through the books.</p>chaoseffect wrote:Snorter wrote:But one would think that any player wanting to play a Summoner would have the common sense to carry out those preparations?
You would think so, but sadly that's often not the case in my experience... not dealing with summons, as the only summoners I've seen played have been done by experienced/considerate players, but spells. I'm having flashbacks now to the people who play casters and refuse to write down the general details of what their g#&*$%n spells do....Damian Magecraft2014-04-11T05:09:00ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?chaoseffecthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1972014-04-10T11:01:34Z2014-04-10T11:01:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Snorter wrote:</div><blockquote><p>But one would think that any player wanting to play a Summoner would have the common sense to carry out those preparations?
</p>
</blockquote><p>You would think so, but sadly that's often not the case in my experience... not dealing with summons, as the only summoners I've seen played have been done by experienced/considerate players, but spells.
<p>I'm having flashbacks now to the people who play casters and refuse to write down the general details of what their g%@!&%n spells do. Ever session this one guy who was playing a Bard would try to use the cantrip Lullaby to put enemies to sleep in combat. And then we'd explain the spell does not do that. And then he would try it again. And again. And he would never use Inspire Courage on our mostly melee party. I don't know why this sticks with me, but the unreasonable anger it inspired in me lasts.</p>
<p>Another guy playing a blaster... each time we ask for his DCs he has to stop and stumble and we have to ask his casting stat, do you have these feat, what about that item, and oh my god just write it next to the spell. Move over I'll do it for you! Just don't waste 5 minutes on this ever again!</p>
<p>I feel a little bit better now.</p>Snorter wrote:But one would think that any player wanting to play a Summoner would have the common sense to carry out those preparations?
You would think so, but sadly that's often not the case in my experience... not dealing with summons, as the only summoners I've seen played have been done by experienced/considerate players, but spells. I'm having flashbacks now to the people who play casters and refuse to write down the general details of what their g@%$&@n spells do. Ever session this...chaoseffect2014-04-10T11:01:34ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Snorterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1962014-04-10T10:44:10Z2014-04-10T10:44:10Z<p>Being prepared with your own statblocks for summoned creatures, <i>and having them be pre-adjusted for Augment Summoning, Starlight Summons, etc</i>, is something that should be impressed on <i>all</i> players. It's not a problem that's peculiar to the Summoner.</p>
<p>No, you can't borrow my Bestiary, I'm using it.
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Even if I'm not using it this very minute, doesn't mean I won't be in a few rounds.
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Even if I won't be using it this encounter, what happens when you or another PC summons a different, second creature? Two players wrestling over a book means losing your place, and torn pages. No thanks.
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Even if no-one else will be using it, I don't want your pizza and cheesypuff fingers all over my book.</p>
<p>A lot of people have said the problem of lacking statblocks is greater when it's a Summoner PC, because they summon more often.
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Certainly, if you have a player who fails to prepare, and then summons frequently, the results will be worse.</p>
<p>But one would think that any player wanting to play a Summoner would have the common sense to carry out those preparations.
<br />
Surely the time sink would be more likely, from a player whose PC only summons infrequently, since it isn't considered an important aspect of their <i>modus operandi</i>?</p>Being prepared with your own statblocks for summoned creatures, and having them be pre-adjusted for Augment Summoning, Starlight Summons, etc, is something that should be impressed on all players. It's not a problem that's peculiar to the Summoner.
No, you can't borrow my Bestiary, I'm using it.
Even if I'm not using it this very minute, doesn't mean I won't be in a few rounds.
Even if I won't be using it this encounter, what happens when you or another PC summons a different, second...Snorter2014-04-10T10:44:10ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?McDaygohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1952014-04-10T10:30:55Z2014-04-10T09:45:34Z<p>A house rule at my table is for any summon monster you plan to use (regardless of class or means of summon) in the game; out of character you must already have a copy of it’s stats ready. (IE your OWN bestiary, preprinting it out, etc) My current group currently has a summoner in it but he is a blood god disciple arch type and can’t spam summon monster. It works.</p>A house rule at my table is for any summon monster you plan to use (regardless of class or means of summon) in the game; out of character you must already have a copy of it’s stats ready. (IE your OWN bestiary, preprinting it out, etc) My current group currently has a summoner in it but he is a blood god disciple arch type and can’t spam summon monster. It works.McDaygo2014-04-10T09:45:34ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Laurefindelhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1942014-04-08T18:29:39Z2014-04-08T18:15:35Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shake Spear wrote:</div><blockquote> Yes, but the spotlight should focus on the drama, but the drama shouldn't focus on the spotlight. </blockquote><p>Which tends to work best when the drama is scripted and directed. RPG is a strange beast when compared to theatre on the stage.Shake Spear wrote:Yes, but the spotlight should focus on the drama, but the drama shouldn't focus on the spotlight.
Which tends to work best when the drama is scripted and directed. RPG is a strange beast when compared to theatre on the stage.Laurefindel2014-04-08T18:15:35ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Snorterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1932014-04-09T16:24:24Z2014-04-08T17:23:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Dazylar wrote:</div><blockquote> True, but that's getting a little OT for this thread - my own situation was pretty crappy for most of 2011. </blockquote><p>That's why I didn't call you out.
</p>
Sorry if you think I've been venting recently.</p>
<p>I know you have family carer issues, as do I, and I'll defend your (and my) right to be delayed.</p>
<p>It's the others, who have far less reason for being disorganised, that grind my gears.
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Waiting till I've got the dice in my hand, and ready to begin the cliffhanger combat, to ask me a rules question that I could have answered any time in the intervening week?
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Not knowing any of the variables or bonus types, of spells being cast?
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You can get the CRB/APG/UM spell cards pdfs, or the augmented summon statblocks for the price of a pint. There's no excuse for being less prepared with one PC, than the GM who is juggling a dozen.</p>Dazylar wrote:True, but that's getting a little OT for this thread - my own situation was pretty crappy for most of 2011.
That's why I didn't call you out.
Sorry if you think I've been venting recently.I know you have family carer issues, as do I, and I'll defend your (and my) right to be delayed.
It's the others, who have far less reason for being disorganised, that grind my gears.
Waiting till I've got the dice in my hand, and ready to begin the cliffhanger combat, to ask me a rules...Snorter2014-04-08T17:23:47ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Dazylarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1922014-04-08T12:28:06Z2014-04-08T12:28:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Snorter wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Snorter wrote:</div><blockquote> Already did that; Age of Worms, 'The Champions Belt'.</blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Dazylar wrote:</div><blockquote> It did take 5 weeks to run though... </blockquote>If you add in the backstage plotting, yes. </blockquote><p>I thought the battle itself was a 5 week thing. Maybe it just felt like it! :-)
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Snorter wrote:</div><blockquote><p>But that says more about our group's inability to schedule more than a few hours every week, than it does the complexity of the scenario, and the tendency for some to waste session time gassing, instead of getting the table prepped and ready to roll.</p>
<p>If people could also avoid getting divorced, and shagging each others girlfriends, that'd be great, too. It isn't just the Summoner, who creates and hogs needless drama. As in most cases, it's a player issue.</blockquote><p>True, but that's getting a little OT for this thread - my own situation was pretty crappy for most of 2011.Snorter wrote:Snorter wrote: Already did that; Age of Worms, 'The Champions Belt'.
Dazylar wrote:It did take 5 weeks to run though...
If you add in the backstage plotting, yes. I thought the battle itself was a 5 week thing. Maybe it just felt like it! :-) Snorter wrote:But that says more about our group's inability to schedule more than a few hours every week, than it does the complexity of the scenario, and the tendency for some to waste session time gassing, instead of getting the table...Dazylar2014-04-08T12:28:06ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Matsu Miyuki (alias of Helikon)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1912014-04-10T17:29:11Z2014-04-08T11:21:52Z<p>I love the summoner class and I have to say that many people start at the completly wrong perspective. Pathfinder is a game. A cooperative game. This means you do it right if all have fun. That doesn´t work all the time, of course, but the idea is not soloing the fun, but sharing it.
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Can the summoner do many things by himself? OF COURSE!
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Can others? Paladins, Bards, Full casters. OF COURSE!
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Yes the eidolon is powerful. It is because the summoner is a supporter.
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Nobody stops the summoner to first buff the fighter/paladin/ barbarian.
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Share the fun and all will love the summoner.
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I remember my party got kittens when my summoner got haste at level 4.
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My Paladin and my battle cleric loved me and our sorcerer twice cause he could run double as fast and still cast spells (He is a chicken).
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When we got swarmed I used many weak things to act as meatshields and also gave flanking.
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My simple solution is play as a teamplayer as a summoner and you will be loved. Be a prick and your are hated.
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Come prepared (Monster stats are already printed) and last but not least.
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Paizo does not punish you for flavor.
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There is no need to optimize the hell out of your character!</p>I love the summoner class and I have to say that many people start at the completly wrong perspective. Pathfinder is a game. A cooperative game. This means you do it right if all have fun. That doesn´t work all the time, of course, but the idea is not soloing the fun, but sharing it.
Can the summoner do many things by himself? OF COURSE!
Can others? Paladins, Bards, Full casters. OF COURSE!
Yes the eidolon is powerful. It is because the summoner is a supporter.
Nobody stops the summoner to...Matsu Miyuki (alias of Helikon)2014-04-08T11:21:52ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Snorterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1902014-04-08T10:39:51Z2014-04-08T10:39:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Snorter wrote:</div><blockquote> Already did that; Age of Worms, 'The Champions Belt'.</blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Dazylar wrote:</div><blockquote> It did take 5 weeks to run though... </blockquote><p>If you add in the backstage plotting, yes.
</p>
The Fisthammers making an alliance with you, helping you explore, then getting killed for it, and their corpses stolen.
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And the pygmy team making their own separate deal with you, to fight a non-lethal contest, and the winner take [redacted]'s head after the Final.
<br />
I wonder if the phanaton burglar and the golden tamarind survived Mordenkainen's scorched earth solution...</p>
<p>But that says more about our group's inability to schedule more than a few hours every week, than it does the complexity of the scenario, and the tendency for some to waste session time gassing, instead of getting the table prepped and ready to roll.</p>
<p>If people could also avoid getting divorced, and shagging each others girlfriends, that'd be great, too. It isn't just the Summoner, who creates and hogs needless drama. As in most cases, it's a player issue.</p>Snorter wrote:Already did that; Age of Worms, 'The Champions Belt'.
Dazylar wrote:It did take 5 weeks to run though...
If you add in the backstage plotting, yes.
The Fisthammers making an alliance with you, helping you explore, then getting killed for it, and their corpses stolen.
And the pygmy team making their own separate deal with you, to fight a non-lethal contest, and the winner take [redacted]'s head after the Final.
I wonder if the phanaton burglar and the golden tamarind survived...Snorter2014-04-08T10:39:51ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?DM_aka_Dudemeisterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1892014-04-08T10:24:42Z2014-04-08T10:24:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">DrDeth wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:</div><blockquote> As a player of a summoner, I sideline the table-time and spotlight hogging by giving out my summoned monsters to my allies to control. So everyone gets a minion to control on their turn (thus everyone gets to share equal time and do the fun of rolling for minions). </blockquote>I'd really hate doing that. </blockquote><p>Which part? Giving control of summons to allies or controlling a summon as an ally?DrDeth wrote:DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote: As a player of a summoner, I sideline the table-time and spotlight hogging by giving out my summoned monsters to my allies to control. So everyone gets a minion to control on their turn (thus everyone gets to share equal time and do the fun of rolling for minions).
I'd really hate doing that. Which part? Giving control of summons to allies or controlling a summon as an ally?DM_aka_Dudemeister2014-04-08T10:24:42ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?MassivePauldronshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1882014-04-08T09:57:06Z2014-04-08T09:57:06Z<p>Eidolon's are too strong for a companion even when the player gets all the rules right. They're about as strong as a beast totem barb which is already the best melee outside of an actively smiting paladin. The difference being they always have a guaranteed buffer/healer/support(effectively filling the role of two classes). SLA's are poorly balanced and allow for overpowered bestiary feats unintended for players. </p>
<p>I don't particularly like the chassis of the summoner itself D8 hit dice 3/4th's bab simple weapon and light armor proficiency, pseudo ninth level casting at least for conjuration spells which is one of the most powerful schools. You can make a competent(not good) power attack flank buddy or archer with the summoner which only further enhances their action economy dominance.</p>
<p>I'm personally willing allow the class, on the condition that everyone else is well optimized, but it's still very rare for a mechanically sound summoner build to get out-shined. I'm willing to acknowledge that druids and animal bloodline sorcs could theoretically exhibit similar problems. In my experience though I've always had less trouble with them. Mostly due to the fact that if a summoner runs into any mechanical problems there is usually a evolution that will solve the issue, also <b>haste at 4th level</b>...</p>Eidolon's are too strong for a companion even when the player gets all the rules right. They're about as strong as a beast totem barb which is already the best melee outside of an actively smiting paladin. The difference being they always have a guaranteed buffer/healer/support(effectively filling the role of two classes). SLA's are poorly balanced and allow for overpowered bestiary feats unintended for players.
I don't particularly like the chassis of the summoner itself D8 hit dice 3/4th's...MassivePauldrons2014-04-08T09:57:06ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Cap. Darlinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1872014-04-08T09:45:39Z2014-04-08T09:45:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">andreww wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Cap. Darling wrote:</div><blockquote>If the drama in the game is about discussions at the Kings count and avoiding traps as one goes to bed. The rogue would be the spotlight hugger. If the drama is around battles and that kind of stuff then that is where the drama and the spotlight will be. But the drama and the spotlight goes hand in hand leave out one and the other is gone as well. </blockquote>Actually the spotlight in the Kings court scenario is much more likely to be taken by the sorcerer, the oracle, the summoner or the student of philosophy wizard. All of them blow the rogue out of the water in social skills and it is not hard to avoid traps with spells. Rogues can make OK face characters but they sacrifice a lot in other areas to do it. Casters with Int or Cha as their primary stat get to be amazing faces as a byproduct of things they were already doing. </blockquote><p>Yes i know the rogue is not optimal but it worked in my particular argument, sort of.
</p>
:)
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Also i havent played in your Kings court but diplomacy would is only a little part of the Throne room power game when i GM. Perception, sense motive, knowledge( local and nobility), intimidate, bluff and sligth of hand are all relevant. And others could be used as well:)
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Edit: to remove nonsense and ad meaning:)
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Edit2 and go look at the summoner i put in your build thread.</p>andreww wrote:Cap. Darling wrote:If the drama in the game is about discussions at the Kings count and avoiding traps as one goes to bed. The rogue would be the spotlight hugger. If the drama is around battles and that kind of stuff then that is where the drama and the spotlight will be. But the drama and the spotlight goes hand in hand leave out one and the other is gone as well.
Actually the spotlight in the Kings court scenario is much more likely to be taken by the sorcerer, the oracle,...Cap. Darling2014-04-08T09:45:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?andrewwhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1862014-04-08T09:21:17Z2014-04-08T09:21:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cap. Darling wrote:</div><blockquote>If the drama in the game is about discussions at the Kings count and avoiding traps as one goes to bed. The rogue would be the spotlight hugger. If the drama is around battles and that kind of stuff then that is where the drama and the spotlight will be. But the drama and the spotlight goes hand in hand leave out one and the other is gone as well. </blockquote><p>Actually the spotlight in the Kings court scenario is much more likely to be taken by the sorcerer, the oracle, the summoner or the student of philosophy wizard. All of them blow the rogue out of the water in social skills and it is not hard to avoid traps with spells. Rogues can make OK face characters but they sacrifice a lot in other areas to do it. Casters with Int or Cha as their primary stat get to be amazing faces as a byproduct of things they were already doing.Cap. Darling wrote:If the drama in the game is about discussions at the Kings count and avoiding traps as one goes to bed. The rogue would be the spotlight hugger. If the drama is around battles and that kind of stuff then that is where the drama and the spotlight will be. But the drama and the spotlight goes hand in hand leave out one and the other is gone as well.
Actually the spotlight in the Kings court scenario is much more likely to be taken by the sorcerer, the oracle, the summoner or...andreww2014-04-08T09:21:17ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Cap. Darlinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1852014-04-08T09:11:34Z2014-04-08T09:11:34Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shake Spear wrote:</div><blockquote> Yes, but the spotlight should focus on the drama, but the drama shouldn't focus on the spotlight. </blockquote><p>If the drama in the game is about discussions at the Kings count and avoiding traps as one goes to bed. The rogue would be the spotlight hugger. If the drama is around battles and that kind of stuff then that is where the drama and the spotlight will be. But the drama and the spotlight goes hand in hand leave out one and the other is gone as well.Shake Spear wrote:Yes, but the spotlight should focus on the drama, but the drama shouldn't focus on the spotlight.
If the drama in the game is about discussions at the Kings count and avoiding traps as one goes to bed. The rogue would be the spotlight hugger. If the drama is around battles and that kind of stuff then that is where the drama and the spotlight will be. But the drama and the spotlight goes hand in hand leave out one and the other is gone as well.Cap. Darling2014-04-08T09:11:34ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Dazylarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1842014-04-08T08:55:39Z2014-04-08T08:55:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">lantzkev wrote:</div><blockquote><p> the lantern archon thing is nothing unique to the summoner though, just fyi. Every arcane and divine class with summon monster can do it...(nearly all of them)</p>
<p>Your definition of cheesy is now every caster in the game nearly. </blockquote><p>Every FULL caster is cheesy. Players of such characters either nerf themselves to stay relevant to the rest of the team, or lack the insight to make the optimised choices in the first place.
<p>Summoners do it <i>by accident</i>.</p>lantzkev wrote:the lantern archon thing is nothing unique to the summoner though, just fyi. Every arcane and divine class with summon monster can do it...(nearly all of them)
Your definition of cheesy is now every caster in the game nearly.
Every FULL caster is cheesy. Players of such characters either nerf themselves to stay relevant to the rest of the team, or lack the insight to make the optimised choices in the first place. Summoners do it by accident.Dazylar2014-04-08T08:55:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Dazylarhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1832014-04-08T08:31:11Z2014-04-08T08:31:11Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Snorter wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">DM Under The Bridge wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I've got a crazy idea, if you want to make your players hate the summoner even more, have them fight a whole guild of summoners. </p>
<p>Ha... ha... ha.</p>
<p>Be sure to get a bit drunk before-hand so you aren't sent insane with all the numbers and tracking the summons. </blockquote><p>Already did that; Age of Worms, 'The Champions Belt'.
<p>Changed one of the lacklustre teams for four pygmies from the Isle of Dread, all brothers, with synergistic spells known.
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The PCs did get to see them compete in the early rounds, but had no idea what they were (making it 'foreign magic' allowed for that).</p>
<p>It was a tough battle, but no-one died (neither side wanted to kill the other, just progress through the competition), and the summoners gave aid to the PCs later, to investigate the BBEG. </blockquote><p>It did take 5 weeks to run though...Snorter wrote:DM Under The Bridge wrote:I've got a crazy idea, if you want to make your players hate the summoner even more, have them fight a whole guild of summoners.
Ha... ha... ha.
Be sure to get a bit drunk before-hand so you aren't sent insane with all the numbers and tracking the summons.
Already did that; Age of Worms, 'The Champions Belt'. Changed one of the lacklustre teams for four pygmies from the Isle of Dread, all brothers, with synergistic spells known.
The PCs did get to...Dazylar2014-04-08T08:31:11ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?voska66https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1822014-04-07T19:15:37Z2014-04-07T19:15:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">swoosh wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so of a general apparent consensus that summoners are the worst class ever( not in terms of power) with a few people going so far as to assert that anyone who would ever want to play a summoner should be permanently banned from the table because they're such a horrible person (etc). Among other nastier things. </p>
<p>Interestingly I haven't actually noticed this sentiment being repeated on other pathfinder websites other than Paizo.com, so I was wondering if anyone had any insight as to why the class is so universally reviled. </blockquote><p>I think it's hated because it slows the game down. You end up with too much stuff being summoned and turns go by very slowly as the Summoner moves all his parts.
<p>Then there are the Edilons which seem to be broken more than animal companions. If the edilon is out performing everything then question come up and the rule book is out. Next the player is then justifying via the rules how his edilon is doing what ever it was doing and in the end 9 times out of 10 an error is found. This really slows things down.</p>swoosh wrote:I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so of a general apparent consensus that summoners are the worst class ever( not in terms of power) with a few people going so far as to assert that anyone who would ever want to play a summoner should be permanently banned from the table because they're such a horrible person (etc). Among other nastier things.
Interestingly I haven't actually noticed this sentiment being repeated on other pathfinder websites other than Paizo.com, so I...voska662014-04-07T19:15:37ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Shake Spear (alias of Conman the Bardbarian)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1812014-04-07T18:39:58Z2014-04-07T18:39:58Z<p>Yes, but the spotlight should focus on the drama, but the drama shouldn't focus on the spotlight.</p>Yes, but the spotlight should focus on the drama, but the drama shouldn't focus on the spotlight.Shake Spear (alias of Conman the Bardbarian)2014-04-07T18:39:58ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Cap. Darlinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1802014-04-07T18:33:52Z2014-04-07T18:33:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shake Spear wrote:</div><blockquote> Funny how so much drama centers around the spotlight. </blockquote><p>Have you ever been to a theater performance where the spotlight avoided the Drama? The spotlight points at the drama, that is why it is there!Shake Spear wrote:Funny how so much drama centers around the spotlight.
Have you ever been to a theater performance where the spotlight avoided the Drama? The spotlight points at the drama, that is why it is there!Cap. Darling2014-04-07T18:33:52ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Snorterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1792014-04-07T16:58:08Z2014-04-07T16:58:08Z<p>I admit, I would not want to be GMing a PFS slot, and find one of the players dropping the news that he was playing a Summoner, with only five minutes before the start of the session.</p>
<p>Even less, if they say "My friend built this character for me, last night!".
<br />
Double groan, because you know it's likely to be built wrong, and they probably don't know how it's supposed to work, and you're going to have to be the bad guy, telling them that.</p>
<p>But a big reason for that is Paizo's reluctance to write effective errata, preferring to rely on the fanbase somehow magically knowing there's an FAQ post buried in the forums.</p>I admit, I would not want to be GMing a PFS slot, and find one of the players dropping the news that he was playing a Summoner, with only five minutes before the start of the session.
Even less, if they say "My friend built this character for me, last night!".
Double groan, because you know it's likely to be built wrong, and they probably don't know how it's supposed to work, and you're going to have to be the bad guy, telling them that.
But a big reason for that is Paizo's reluctance to...Snorter2014-04-07T16:58:08ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?LazarXhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1782014-04-07T16:37:17Z2014-04-07T16:37:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Snorter wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">LazarX wrote:</div><blockquote> I've yet to see that complaint made in any meaningful number. You're just putting up a strawman to knock it down and dismiss more meaningful mechanic complaints. </blockquote><p>Really?
<p>It's all over the first page (posts 5, 6, 8, 11, 24, 27).
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People disliking the Summoner, because they see it as an unnecessary class, because 'the Conjurer already fills that role'. Or mentioning that they have seen others use this as the reason.
<br />
I specifically said I was responding to the first page; if those flavour objections died down after page 1, then so be it.
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There's still a lot of people out there, who give that as one of their main reasons, and not all of them post here.</p>
<p></blockquote><p>Like many who post here, you're making the mistake that this thread, or even the messageboard is a good representation of the actual playing community.
<p>As a PFS judge who makes a circuit of several conventions and the occasional store game day, while those people DO exist, they hardly represent the norm. That said, the Summoner IS a problematic class because it has so many exceptions, enough rules that it's practically a book onto itself, that there are issues with keeping the numbers and mechanics all straight, and you do have a few manipulative players who take advantage of GM's that are not fully conversant with the Summoner's package of rules. Their outsize antics do poison the well for most of the other Summoner players.</p>
<p>That said, there are problems inherent with the class itself, but we have what we have. And in a campaign that's kept to the guidelines of PFS, most of those problems go away.</p>Snorter wrote:LazarX wrote: I've yet to see that complaint made in any meaningful number. You're just putting up a strawman to knock it down and dismiss more meaningful mechanic complaints.
Really? It's all over the first page (posts 5, 6, 8, 11, 24, 27).
People disliking the Summoner, because they see it as an unnecessary class, because 'the Conjurer already fills that role'. Or mentioning that they have seen others use this as the reason.
I specifically said I was responding to the first...LazarX2014-04-07T16:37:17ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Shake Spear (alias of Conman the Bardbarian)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1772014-04-07T15:57:15Z2014-04-07T15:57:15Z<p>Funny how so much drama centers around the spotlight.</p>Funny how so much drama centers around the spotlight.Shake Spear (alias of Conman the Bardbarian)2014-04-07T15:57:15ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: Why does everyone hate summoners?Calybos1https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qv15&page=4?Why-does-everyone-hate-summoners#1762014-04-07T16:09:53Z2014-04-07T15:48:39Z<p>The summoner is a problem because it's game-disrupting at both ends of the spectrum.</p>
<p>With a skilled and experienced player, the summoner can solo most encounters while everybody else just sits there and watches.</p>
<p>With a novice player, the summoner slows everything to a crawl as the player looks up and tries to figure out eidolon initiative, eidolon abilities, eidolon attacks, his own caster's actions, etc. etc.</p>The summoner is a problem because it's game-disrupting at both ends of the spectrum.
With a skilled and experienced player, the summoner can solo most encounters while everybody else just sits there and watches.
With a novice player, the summoner slows everything to a crawl as the player looks up and tries to figure out eidolon initiative, eidolon abilities, eidolon attacks, his own caster's actions, etc. etc.Calybos12014-04-07T15:48:39Z