I am building a Ranger for a homegame and considered making a Standard Switch Hitter.
With the Point Blank Master Feat however, I don't see any real reason to ever put away my bow.
I'm likely going to start this character at level 10(my Barbarian got turned into a Vampire), therefore Point Blank Master won't really stop my acess to Improved Precise Shot.
Is there any reason I am not aware of to still be a Switch Hitter under this circumstances?
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play a high dex low strength switch hitter, once you get into your levels the bow becomes a superior choice.
all you need is a 2 handed weapon, a 14 strength and power attack to be good in melee. but archery will take more investment, with a better pay off.
dex>strength>con>wisdom would be my stat priority, and yes i would play a switch hitter for the first 5 levels, then transition into a near full archer after that. you get to start at 10, so i would just play an archer with powerattack.
to answer your question, there are many many situations where archery is useless, and having access to a melee weapon with some degree of profeciency will be a boon to your survive ability.
I can't think of any reasons to sweat a melee option at that point. Clustered shots and Point Blank Master really kind of guarantee you can continue hammering folks even if/when they get in your grill.
Be ready to be challenged in other ways, I guess (grapple, spells, whatever).
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It kinda depends on your groups playstyle.
Does your GM tailor everything so that your party never has to face adversity? Do you have access to whatever equipment you might want from the magical superstore? If yes, then you should never have to put down your bow so don't worry about switch hitting. If your GM likes to challenge you and place you in situations where your strengths are neutralised then you might want to be able to do more than one trick.
With the expansion of splat books switch hitting is no longer the optimal Ranger. Its not bad if your melee focused primarily, but your able to pick up a bow when you need to, but I think just focus on the bow. Ranged combat is the OP anyway in PF.
How so?
That's a 5th level spell. How common is that going to be on opponents?
And if that's going to be so prevalent, see fi you can work with your mage buddy to come up with a way of bringing that defense down.
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wind conditions, fighting in a forest with brush and trees blocking your LOS, obscuring mist(and about 20 other spells), tinder twigs, being knocked prone, loss of sight, loss of strength, loss of dex, and the worst one of all soft cover bonuses that stack for every idiotic teammate that blocks your shot.
play an archer with a gm who knows all of the rules for archery and it loses its power very quickly, in a room without cover, weather, poor team positioning or spell effects like illusionary wall (to prevent LOS) and you will do insane DPR.
but i dont play games like that,when i gm i make it more realistic.
At level 10 (which the OP is starting at), the archery ranger has feats and abilities to mitigate many of those. And half of those listed are problems for melee as well as archers, so being a switch-hitter isn't really a solution.
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being a switch hitter is a solution...
having diversity in how you approach a situation is a solution.
weather does not effect melee, teammates standing in your way only effects melee that needs to charge, and they have dragon style for that.
many effects that prevent archery are negated by melee range and effect.
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Maybe I should have said, "being a switch hitter ins't a better solution than being a well-built archery ranger given the specific issues you mentioned."
having diversity in how you approach a situation is a solution.
Generally, I agree. But I'm not convinced that the archery ranger doesn't outperform the switch-hitter in most of the situations, even the situations you've mentioned.
Weather does affect melee, just maybe not as harshly. The concealment problems you listed (fogs and whatnot) are certainly an issue for both, if admittedly a smaller issue for melee. Then again, the archery ranger with PBM can simply step into melee (just like the melee guy) and continue to tear face with his bow without fear of provoking AoO's.
Point Blank Master is the clincher here. Other than being Prone, grappled, or fickle winds (which i addressed above), the archery ranger with PBM can step into nearly every one of your problem situations and perform as effectively as a melee guy could.
and Precise Shot and Improved Precise shots means the Archery ranger doesn't give a rat's ass about teammates standing in the way. he threads the needle easily. Which is actually a point in his favor because then your melee a still cannot charge and loses a round of full attacks getting into melee. Dragon style is fair, but it's a heavier feat investment then PBM is for the Archery style Ranger... especially considering the melee guy will have to pick up feats like Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist to be able to qualify. Not feats that are exactly all that common to most melee setups.
many effects that prevent archery are negated by melee range and effect.
I'm not saying there aren't any, but you haven't given many good examples of this being the case, so far.
Additionally, if melee really is the only option, the archery ranger can always spend a single feat on power attack, make sure to pack a melee weapon or two, and simply switch when the (rare) situation warrants. I mean, he's already packing a full BAB and a Strength of 14 or so (or should be, anyway). So while he may not be a melee beast, he's not too shabby with an axe or sword when the situation warrants it.
Well, assuming he's level 10 he can deal with most of those, and hopefully has some casting support for a dispel magic here or there.
Wind Conditions: Ya, these can suck, reason to play a gunslinger.
Vision effects: Effect melee too, though possibly only 20-50%, still have to get to them. Fog Cutting Goggles are 12k, easily affordable at that level and take away nearly all of those. Also, seeking on bow.
Wind Spells: Fickle Winds and wind wall can be problematic. Most people with fickle winds though will be flying, use animal companion to get underneath them and full attack! Animal companion can also get you past a wind wall.
Brush/Trees: Hmm, he's got an animal companion, AC uses his move and full attack.
Prone, Dex, Str: That ruins any martials day just as bad as an archers.
Soft Cover: First, it doesn't stack
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
Second: Improved Precise Shot, which he'll have by level 10.
wind conditions, fighting in a forest with brush and trees blocking your LOS, obscuring mist(and about 20 other spells), tinder twigs, being knocked prone, loss of sight, loss of strength, loss of dex, and the worst one of all soft cover bonuses that stack for every idiotic teammate that blocks your shot.
play an archer with a gm who knows all of the rules for archery and it loses its power very quickly, in a room without cover, weather, poor team positioning or spell effects like illusionary wall (to prevent LOS) and you will do insane DPR.
but i dont play games like that,when i gm i make it more realistic.
I can ignore cover due to Improved Precise Shot. Getting debuffed will effect me, when I'm wielding a melee weapon as well. (I'm Considering an Adaptive bow for the Strength bonus.)
Wind would indeed be annoying, though I doubt there will be strong winds very often.
Not being to be able to attack while prone will also be pretty bad, didn't even know that.
I still think I will still go full Archer, since we got another melee(likely Paladin the player wants to retire his rogue)and winds and tripping enemies focussing me should be rather rare.
EDIT: I can buy level equivalent equipment freely when making the ranger.
Preparing the 1st level spell Bowstaff is one way an archer with Point Blank Master can clobber a target rather than fill it with arrows.
Not that it's actually relevant, I actually far prefer to play switch-hitters, even though I believe the Archery version of the Ranger is mechanically superior in terms of tactics and DPR.
Mostly I like the theme of being a guy who can flow from tactical situation to situation, having a tool for each job. And because I like having a guy who is impressive with melee weapons in addition to being a strong archer. i like the concept far, far better, and I wish it wasn't an inferior choice.
... but that's just me.
Not that it's actually relevant, I actually far prefer to play switch-hitters, even though I believe the Archery version of the Ranger is mechanically superior in terms of tactics and DPR.
Mostly I like the theme of being a guy who can flow from tactical situation to situation, having a tool for each job. And because I like having a guy who is impressive with melee weapons in addition to being a strong archer. i like the concept far, far better, and I wish it wasn't an inferior choice.
... but that's just me.
I hear ya, unfortunately PF greatly favors specialization over generalization.
I agree with you in general. But I don't know that this is a problem of specialization.
Clustered Shots + Point Blank master are just really, really, really powerful. They remove most of the drawbacks of being an archer.
Point Blank Master is the clincher here. Other than being Prone, grappled, or fickle winds (which i addressed above), the archery ranger with PBM can step into nearly every one of your problem situations and perform as effectively as a melee guy could.
Weather, not just fickle winds, is still problematic to a PBM. You may be shooting like you're in melee, but it's still a ranged attack, so wind and rain will still make it harder or even impossible. Something as common as a storm makes ranged attacks impossible, and lesser conditions can still impose pretty high penalties. At that point, I'll be grabbing for my sword.
Point Blank Master is the clincher here. Other than being Prone, grappled, or fickle winds (which i addressed above), the archery ranger with PBM can step into nearly every one of your problem situations and perform as effectively as a melee guy could.Weather, not just fickle winds, is still problematic to a PBM. You may be shooting like you're in melee, but it's still a ranged attack, so wind and rain will still make it harder or even impossible. Something as common as a storm makes ranged attacks impossible, and lesser conditions can still impose pretty high penalties. At that point, I'll be grabbing for my sword.
to be fair that's only windstorms, hurricanes, and tornado's that make ranged attacks impossible. If you read the page you linked it shows that you can shoot in strong winds with a -2 and severe with a -4.
And again, how often is that the case? How often are you adventuring in the elements? And how much of that time is spent under these circumstances?
I'm not saying it doesn't exist—and it would certainly happen in some campaigns/settings than others—but is it happening even 25% of the time?
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Fickle Winds is an impressive spell! Too bad the party wizard, sorc, cleric, druid, and the ranger himself can counterspell it. Or straight up dispel it.
And again, how often is that the case? How often are you adventuring in the elements? And how much of that time is spent under these circumstances?
I'm not saying it doesn't exist—and it would certainly happen in some campaigns/settings than others—but is it happening even 25% of the time?
I've personally seen it in.. ~1 game. I play PFS and Paizo Adventure Paths.
EDIT: re-read your original post. My apologies.
I dont' know that i'd really call that a switch-hitter, anymore. Considering that he'll be starting at level 10, I can't imagine he'll be actually planning to pull out that melee weapon very often, if at all.
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Vision effects: Effect melee too, though possibly only 20-50%, still have to get to them. Fog Cutting Goggles are 12k, easily affordable at that level and take away nearly all of those. Also, seeking on bow.
vision effects can be negated by boots of tremor sense a very cheap item that range has no equivalent to.
Brush/Trees: Hmm, he's got an animal companion, AC uses his move and full attack.
what does the fact that he has an Ac have to do with my point that it hinders archery?
Prone, Dex, Str: That ruins any martials day just as bad as an archers.
no way, a melee can still fight while prone, a bow archer cant ,literally, even with improved pointblank shot. nuke my dex oh well my ac went down a little. nuke my strength ok thats a hurts a little more but its a wash between melee and archery because, the archer goes to a flat d8 with a - 2 to attacks (assuming composite) then adds modifiers, the same goes for the melee.
Soft Cover: First, it doesn't stackBonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
im pretty sure it does stack, but ive never seen a FAQ for it, so i will concede to that interpretation.
Second: Improved Precise Shot, which he'll have by level 10.
true, i never said ANYTHING ABOUT HIS CHARACTER, i said archers in general. this statement was a direct response to someone saying archery was OP, which it isnt.
now if you add up the amount of gold you need to spend, just to counter half these negatives, by level ten you have about 20k+ gold less then the melee. it eventually balances out, and a smart melee will invest in a few of the same items eventually, but thats a lot of your wealth by level just to counter the basic things that can shut you down. and until you can counter these things, like you gm doesn't let you pick what ever you want from the magic mart in every town, you will be shut down until you can attain these items.
in conclusion archery isnt over powered.
A simple suggestion to counter a lot of those arguments above would be what Artoo said earlier... pick up Quickdraw and a bunch of thrown weapons. It's as cheap of an investment (vs. Power Attack) and allows you to continue bringing to bear all of your other archery stuff when prone/str-drained or whatever.
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A simple suggestion to counter a lot of those arguments above would be what Artoo said earlier... pick up Quickdraw and a bunch of thrown weapons. It's as cheap of an investment (vs. Power Attack) and allows you to continue bringing to bear all of your other archery stuff when prone/str-drained or whatever.
and there is another major issue, thrown weapons suck terribly in PF. you most likely wont even get past the enemies DR with thrown weapons.
Clustered shots + Rapid Shot + Manyshot all still apply... so you'll still do great, I'd think.
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Thanks everyone for your participation in this thread and the nice tipps.
I now made two versions of the character: One has Weapon Focus and Point Blank Master, the other has Quick Draw and Power Attack instead.
Since we play with rolled stats I'll have to wait for rolling a character in front of the GM. Which one I'll take will depend on how good my stats are going to turn out.
At the moment I'm leaning to full archery, because magic weapons are expensive and not needing a magic falchion will free up lots of gold for wands, rods, pearls of power and skill enhancers to increase my utility otherwise.
Um, what?
@Sidekick: By level ten your archer should have an adaptive (UE)composite bow - thus a strength penalty affects him the same way as the melee combatant.
Well if you cannot see your target you cannot shoot at it...but you can swing at a target you cannot see.
I can either try touching it with a touch attack or locate it with a perception check and then attack his square. It doesn't matter if I do so with a ranged or a melee weapon.
I can also cast Hunters Eye from the APG. +20 Perception and See Invisibility should make shure I detect even the sneakiest targets.
Well if you cannot see your target you cannot shoot at it...but you can swing at a target you cannot see.I can either try touching it with a touch attack or locate it with a perception check and then attack his square. It doesn't matter if I do so with a ranged or a melee weapon.
I can also cast Hunters Eye from the APG. +20 Perception and See Invisibility should make shure I detect even the sneakiest targets.
Keep in mind that Hunter's Eye is a targeted spell, meaning you need to already be able to see the person you want to use it on. This spell is mostly just useful in preventing the target from escaping.
Personally on my Ranger I used UMD with a scroll of See Invisibility and a scroll of Permanency. This along with a Seeking bow and a Goz Mask (and a +32 perception) shuts down most sight-based problems.