Iaijutsu Striker (Samurai alternate class this time)

[LoneKnave]

The following is going to be a purely subjective introduction for the reasons I got inspired for yet another Iaijutsu style:

Let us not kid ourselves. Iaijutsu is cool as f%$$. Yeah, call me a weeaboo, see if I care. Just the idea itself appeals to me on a base level. However... Sword saint suuuuuucks. I mean, okay, you couldn't use the mount anyway, but what you get instead is a glorified backstab as a full round action (it's slower than a regular attack WTF?) usable very few times a day. Not viable as a fighting style to base your character around.

So! Here I'm going to fix it. But what would be a fair replacement for a mount? Hmm... Well, I never said I was too creative...

Iaijutsu striker wrote:

Not all Samurai are mounted combatants; while using a mount is fine for those who fulfil more openly combat roles for their masters, many Samurai fill roles that don't require a mount. If a samurai isn't usually expected to travel or take part in open warfare, taking care of the mount is extra hassle for no tangible benefit. Why should bodyguards in a castle be expected to be expert horsemen, when they'll serve their lord mostly on foot? Wandering Ronin very rarely can afford buying or feeding and taking care of a horse either.

So, many samurai instead focus on honing their fighting style, their footwork, and most importantly, their Iaijutsu, which lets them strike with a suddenly with great force when quick actions are needed and there's no time or space to saddle up. Masters of this technique can even match mounted combatants in power, if not in speed of movement.

Class skills:

An Iaijutsu Striker Samurai does not gain Handle Animal (Cha), or Ride (Dex) as class skills; instead, she gains Perform (Cha), and Acrobatics (Dex) as class skills.

Iaiajutsu style:

After drawing a one handed slashing weapon from its scabbard, the Iaijutsu Striker counts as being mounted until the beginning of his next turn. He doesn't gain any extra move or standard actions, but can use any feat or ability that requires the user to be mounted as if he was riding a mount. He still needs to perform the action himself (so for Ride-by attack he needs to charge, for example).

The Iaijutsu Striker counts as having Mounted Combat for the purpose of qualifying for feats that have it as a prerequisite, and may also use either Acrobatics (DEX) or Perform (CHA) in the place of Ride (DEX) both for qualifying, and for when a feat calls for a Ride check, but the Iaijutsu Striker is not actually mounted. However, he can not actually use these feats mounted until he has the Mounted Combat feat and enough ranks in Ride to qualify for them.

If a feat grants an extra attack for the mount (such as with the Trample feat), the Iaijutsu striker may make an attack with a light weapon in his off hand (usually an unarmed strike or his scabbard). For other effects (like Mounted Combat) he counts as his own mount.

Iaijutsu Style replaces the Samurai's Mount class feature.

Iaijutsu Mastery:

At 3rd level, the one handed slashing weapon that the Iaijutsu Striker draws counts as a lance for the purposes of feats and abilities until the beginning of his next turn.

Iaijutsu Mastery replaces the Samurai's Mount class feature.

So... How does that sound?

[Detect Magic]

Probably the strangest attempt to integrate iaijutsu into the game I've ever seen.

[GM Kyle]

Sword Saint archetype already does it well enough.

[Chaotic Fighter]

...I didn't even see this before posting a request for a mountless samurai advice...

[Detect Magic]

Have you ever seen this before?

[Chaotic Fighter]

I do like it a lot... But I can't help but feel I'll end up carrying like nine Katanas so I can draw them every round... Although I have made a character that carried four Katanas for completely unrelated reasons so that's not too much of a stretch.

[LoneKnave]

Hmm, maybe some kind of re-sheath feat would be good? I don't want to make it just "free" because I do want it to be a bit situational (you give up the situationality of having a huge-ass mount follow you around everywhere to having to sheathe your sword).

I guess carrying a lot of swords is cool too though

Detect Magic wrote:

Probably the strangest attempt to integrate iaijutsu into the game I've ever seen.

When you think about what it actually does, it's not that weird. Ride-by is essentially the cool "run at a guy and slash and then slide for a bit", Spirited charge gives you the increase in power, Mounted Combat lets you dodge a move with acrobatics, etc...

It sounds a bit weird, yeah, but the result is thematically sound.

GM Kyle wrote:

Sword Saint archetype already does it well enough.

For you, maybe.

[GM Kyle]

You'd do more damage Power Attacking. Better off charging with another weapon an quick drawing on round two.

[GM Kyle]

I have a Level 7 Sword Saint. Works fine.

[Chaotic Fighter]

GM Kyle wrote:

You'd do more damage Power Attacking. Better off charging with another weapon an quick drawing on round two.

I don't actually understand your comment. Could you explain?

[LoneKnave]

GM Kyle wrote:

I have a Level 7 Sword Saint. Works fine.

LoneKnave wrote:

For you, maybe.

[GM Kyle]

LoneKnave wrote:

GM Kyle wrote:

I have a Level 7 Sword Saint. Works fine.

LoneKnave wrote:

For you, maybe.

I got 99 Problems but a Samurai ain't one of them.

[Adam B. 135]

This sounds like an excellent archetype for samurai. A million times better than Sword Saint.

And for GM Kyle, power attack is better for this archetype than for sword saint because Spirited Charge multiplies the power attack damage by 3. Sword Saint just gets a bunch of useless extra d6's and has to do its iajutsu as a full round action. This iajutsu master instead can do his as a standard action. More damage. Can do iajutsu more often. Far more mobile.

[GM Kyle]

Well, I can make up my own archetype that's better than this one too. Hard to compare official content to something I home brewed in 5 minutes.

[LoneKnave]

GM Kyle wrote:

Well, I can make up my own archetype that's better than this one too. Hard to compare official content to something I home brewed in 5 minutes.

Go ahead! Reading other people's work is fun, and the creative process is enjoyable. You can learn a lot about design, math and language from these exercises.

@Adam B. I am glad you like it!

[Chaotic Fighter]

GM Kyle wrote:

Well, I can make up my own archetype that's better than this one too. Hard to compare official content to something I home brewed in 5 minutes.

I'll be back in five minutes to see what you came up with.

[Adam B. 135]

GM Kyle wrote:

Well, I can make up my own archetype that's better than this one too. Hard to compare official content to something I home brewed in 5 minutes.

This is in fact the Homebrew part of the forums. If there was any place to compare fan made content to official content, this is the place.

I think the main thing I like about this archetype is that it gives this class something to do when it can't full attack. Definitely a fun one here. The mobility that this class has is just excellent.

Suggestion: Give it some add-ons to using his iajutsu at higher levels. Perhaps a bleed?

[Detect Magic]

This thread got me thinking about the Sword Saint archetype and how I'd go about "fixing" it (I'm starting to hate that term, as it happens, but alas, for lack of a better word--that's exactly what it needs--some "fixing").

Here's my attempt (no offense, LoneKnave--not trying to hijack your thread or anything; just figured you'd be interested).

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

Iaijutsu in the sense of drawing and attacking your sword in a single move is the Quick Draw feat. That's all you need to emulate it.

If you want the quick draw showdown popularized in Sanjuro and adopted for L5R, the Iaijutsu Focus skill is a bad conversion of the Iaijutsu skill, with the designers trying to add a bunch of stuff that didn't fit the d20 system trying to emulate the lethality of R&K.

[LoneKnave]

@Detect Magic:

If I look at it as a fix, it's pretty good. I find it really elegant (something you can't say about my homebrew). I'd personally have the Sudden Challenge replace the first level order ability (the one that modifies your challenge). Maybe reconsider the free sheathing thing at lvl1, as it feels like it's too easy to use it with multiple attacks, which for me goes against theme (at least at lower levels). Maybe it'd be more thematic, (but mechanically pretty much the same) if it read as something like "May sheathe a weapon during any move or full round action". Would feel like it combines well with feinting for example. Nice throwback to 3rd edition Iaijutsu focus too.

My personal preference is that I don't like it doing precision damage and the target having to be flat footed, it makes it too similar to SA for me. Dmg multiplication feels more "powerful" than bonus precision.

@Bjørn Røyrvik: I understand where you are coming from with quickdraw, but that alone doesn't feel enough. If you want a Rurouni Kenshin style guy, it just doesn't suffice alone. Agreed with 3rd's iaijutsu focus though.

[Excaliburproxy]

This is super weird, but I respect the intent. Are you sure that you want this class to use mounted feats when most mounted feats reference a mount that Mr. Iajutsu doesn't have? I mean, the design of this is really weird and I already know the feats that you want to use:

Ride-by Attack
Spirited Charge
Mounted Skirmisher
And MAYBE mounted blade (which is cool and doesn't need to be local, imo)
And MAYBE wheeling charge (which is cool and maybe too good and should remain local)

Why not just give the guy what is essentially "ride-by attack on foot" (only while drawing his sword) at level one? Then give him the equivalent of "spirited charge on foot" in place of his level 6 feat and "mounted skirmisher" on foot in place of his level 12 feat.

In addition to being a little confusing, the current write-up pretty much makes this an impossible-y good 1 level dip for almost every melee class (because through mounted skirmisher, you could essentially get the holy grail of pounce with any class). It would be an even more important dip for other classes that already have mounts because it would make those builds viable both on foot AND mounted. The sohei monk with one level of this would be a g&*#$&n death machine.

And since giving up a mount is sort of a big deal, I would perhaps give the samurai some extra "bonus feats" and drop in some other equivalents of mounted feats that you like. This makes getting the mechanics less weird and it stops people from getting the real full benefit of the class with just one level. Even with those edits, I still see pouncebarians taking a one level dip in this class for the x2 damage on a charge.

[LoneKnave]

Well, there's quite a few others. Mounted Combat (trick riding optional), indomitable mount, give you saves and AC reroll for your Iaijutsu turn, Trample and mounted onslaught give you extra attacks, etc.

I'm also afraid of the whole dipping thing, but when you think about it, it's a rather restricted ability. You'll mostly be able to pull it off once/combat, or you'll have to spend actions to set it up. Mr. RAGEPOUNCE will have to use a one handed weapon instead of a two hander, which makes this a more even tradeoff (wording possibly needs to be more restrictive so you can only attack with the weapon you drew, so no "free action drop weapon and use my claws instead" shenanigans).

Skirmish needs lvl 14 BTW, and at that point, let them have it. Seriously.

The best argument in my opinion though is that you could get full benefits of this on every turn if you shelled out for a mount anyway. So if it's not broken with a mount on every turn, it probably is not broken on foot every second turn (if that). You can use it every battle, but less often once you are inside, while on the flip if you are mounted you are even stronger anyway.

Also, sohei getting mounted skirmisher at lvl1 is kinda bonkers to begin with (but he still couldn't flurry because of the weapon restriction until later levels anyway).

I'm afraid of diping so maybe replace the Ride skill with your Samurai level instead of Acrobatics or Perform, that way you eliminate most dips.

[Excaliburproxy]

LoneKnave wrote:

Well, there's quite a few others. Mounted Combat (trick riding optional), indomitable mount, give you saves and AC reroll for your Iaijutsu turn, Trample and mounted onslaught give you extra attacks, etc.

I'm also afraid of the whole dipping thing, but when you think about it, it's a rather restricted ability. You'll mostly be able to pull it off once/combat, or you'll have to spend actions to set it up. Mr. RAGEPOUNCE will have to use a one handed weapon instead of a two hander, which makes this a more even tradeoff (wording possibly needs to be more restrictive so you can only attack with the weapon you drew, so no "free action drop weapon and use my claws instead" shenanigans).

Skirmish needs lvl 14 BTW, and at that point, let them have it. Seriously.

The best argument in my opinion though is that you could get full benefits of this on every turn if you shelled out for a mount anyway. So if it's not broken with a mount on every turn, it probably is not broken on foot every second turn (if that). You can use it every battle, but less often once you are inside, while on the flip if you are mounted you are even stronger anyway.

Also, sohei getting mounted skirmisher at lvl1 is kinda bonkers to begin with (but he still couldn't flurry because of the weapon restriction until later levels anyway).

I'm afraid of diping so maybe replace the Ride skill with your Samurai level instead of Acrobatics or Perform, that way you eliminate most dips.

That might help. I don't think it is unbalanced, exactly. I just think it is weird. How does mounted combat even work in this situation? Or trick riding?

[LoneKnave]

You'd get hit, you can make an acrobatics or perform check (instead of a ride check) and if it beats the attackers roll you instead don't get hit.

[Excaliburproxy]

ohhh. I see how that is now. That is maybe too good then. It is like the capstone of serpent style? It is really much much better than that because of trick riding.

Trick riding would give you an AC of 15+level+3+dex+(+3 and then +6 with skill focus+ any item bonuses) against the first two attacks that would beat the guy's normal defenses. That is really really good. It is too good.

At level 12 that is probably going to be like 39. For context: the CR 13 glarezu has a +20 to all its attacks.

I bet there are even bigger cans of worms that I am not even thinking of, though.

I will also note that the falcata is the best two handed weapon in the game, statistically (even though it is a one handed slashing weapon!).

[LoneKnave]

Where do you get the base 15 from? A d20 should be 10,5?

Also, Snake Style's the first in it's feat-line and has similar pre-reqs (well, has IUS as a requirement but that's a bit easy to get). Also note, entering a style is a swift and you stay in it indefinitely, while this only works on Iaijutsu rounds, which is a lot more finnicky. The only thing it has is an extra use over snake style (but you do pay for that with a feat which I think is fine). Also, note the armor penalty, something which does not exist with snake (that being a wis skill).

Falcata: dully noted. Maybe enforce having to use one hand for your attacks for the round.

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A question: would you guys find it less thematically jarring if it was themed as a Final Fantasy style Dragoon and you'd be making jump checks instead? Probably as a cavalier archetype instead of samurai.

[Detect Magic]

Here's a Sword Saint based on your concept of using mounted mechanics for iaijutsu, LoneKnave. (You've got me stuck on the idea of re-designing iaijutsu! Maybe this would work...)

[Detect Magic]

LoneKnave wrote:

A question: would you guys find it less thematically jarring if it was themed as a Final Fantasy style Dragoon and you'd be making jump checks instead? Probably as a cavalier archetype instead of samurai.

The damage-multiplying mechanic might work for either concept, though I think the mythic "aerial assault" ability (from the champion path) might be a better representation of the dragoon's "jump".

[Excaliburproxy]

LoneKnave wrote:

Where do you get the base 15 from? A d20 should be 10,5?

Also, Snake Style's the first in it's feat-line and has similar pre-reqs (well, has IUS as a requirement but that's a bit easy to get). Also note, entering a style is a swift and you stay in it indefinitely, while this only works on Iaijutsu rounds, which is a lot more finnicky. The only thing it has is an extra use over snake style (but you do pay for that with a feat which I think is fine). Also, note the armor penalty, something which does not exist with snake (that being a wis skill).

Falcata: dully noted. Maybe enforce having to use one hand for your attacks for the round.

------------------------------------------

A question: would you guys find it less thematically jarring if it was themed as a Final Fantasy style Dragoon and you'd be making jump checks instead? Probably as a cavalier archetype instead of samurai.

Oh. I misremembered trick riding. I thought it let you take a 15 but it just lets you automatically succeed any check of 15 or lower.

And now that you mention that it only works in iajutsu rounds, I don't think it is broken (just really kind of clumsy).

[Adam B. 135]

Detect Magic wrote:

Here's a Sword Saint based on your concept of using mounted mechanics for iaijutsu, LoneKnave. (You've got me stuck on the idea of re-designing iaijutsu! Maybe this would work...)

Okay, now that feels right. It is weaker than Lordknave's Iajutsu Master, but feels more balanced it hadn't occurred to me that through trick riding, Lordknave's guy could dodge two attacks a round.

One question on Charge Past though. You cannot charge through someone. How does the character get past the guy? Does he have to make an overrun?

[LoneKnave]

Adam B. 135 wrote:

Detect Magic wrote:

Here's a Sword Saint based on your concept of using mounted mechanics for iaijutsu, LoneKnave. (You've got me stuck on the idea of re-designing iaijutsu! Maybe this would work...)

Okay, now that feels right. It is weaker than Lordknave's Iajutsu Master, but feels more balanced it hadn't occurred to me that through trick riding, Lordknave's guy could dodge two attacks a round.

One question on Charge Past though. You cannot charge through someone. How does the character get past the guy? Does he have to make an overrun?

This is a problem with ride-by as well (charge action always goes in a straight line towards the target... so how do you continue charging past him?). It's just assumed you can charge to a square where you threaten.

As for the archetype, that's a nice way to integrate it without it feeling all weird.

[Adam B. 135]

LoneKnave wrote:

Adam B. 135 wrote:

Detect Magic wrote:

Here's a Sword Saint based on your concept of using mounted mechanics for iaijutsu, LoneKnave. (You've got me stuck on the idea of re-designing iaijutsu! Maybe this would work...)

Okay, now that feels right. It is weaker than Lordknave's Iajutsu Master, but feels more balanced it hadn't occurred to me that through trick riding, Lordknave's guy could dodge two attacks a round.

One question on Charge Past though. You cannot charge through someone. How does the character get past the guy? Does he have to make an overrun?

This is a problem with ride-by as well (charge action always goes in a straight line towards the target... so how do you continue charging past him?). It's just assumed you can charge to a square where you threaten.

As for the archetype, that's a nice way to integrate it without it feeling all weird.

The way my group handles lance charging a dude is using Overrun. After all, you are on a horse and often the dude you charged is not. Besides, in real life if the knight missed or something, the horse's feet did not.

Though I do agree with house ruling that charge does not have to be direct. It makes more sense that way and is much better quality of life for players.