Level 1 Character in Tier 3-7?


GM Discussion

Sovereign Court

Hey,

is it allowed to play a Level 1 Character in a Tier 3-7 (Subtier 3-4) Scenario?

I have a document called "CHARACTER LEVELS and PFS Scenario Tiers", but it don't covers Tier 3-7.

Dark Archive 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It is not allowed to play a character outside of the tier rating for any scenario. You can, however, play a pregen of the level appropriate to the tier being played and then reduce the gold and apply it to that level 1 character.

From the Guide to Organized Play:

Quote:

You may also opt instead to apply the

Chronicle sheets earned with a non-
1st-level pregenerated character to a
1st-level character with the amount
of gp gained reduced to 500 gp (or
250 gp for characters using the slow
advancement track). You do not lose access
to any of the Prestige Points, boons,
or items listed on the Chronicle
sheets that were earned
during the adventure.

Sovereign Court

I see. Thanks a lot.


The relevant part on playing within tier is in the GM section of the Guide to Organized play, page 31:

Tiers and Subtiers wrote:


Tiers are a level restriction for play. If a PC’s level does not fall within the level range of a scenario’s tier, that character can not legally play in that scenario. For example, a 5th-level PC is legal for play in scenarios of Tiers 1–5, 3–7, and 5–9; a 1st-level PC can only legally play in a Tier 1 or Tier 1–5 scenario. Within each tier, PCs should play in the subtier in which they fall whenever possible, but they may be allowed to play up or down, based on the average party level at the table...

A PC can play in a different _sub_ tier (i.e. a level 1 PC can play in the 4-5 sub tier of a 1-5 scenario) but they cannot play if they are not within the _tier_ of the scenario.

The Exchange

there are older tier 1-7 mods out there still legal for play


I'm very new to Pathfinder and confused. People are talking about reducing the gold award to 500gp (which seems like a sensible figure) but the Organized Play document says 1,398 (which is both high for a 1st level character and weirdly specific).

Can anyone enlighten me?

Grand Lodge 4/5

Ring_of_Gygges wrote:

I'm very new to Pathfinder and confused. People are talking about reducing the gold award to 500gp (which seems like a sensible figure) but the Organized Play document says 1,398 (which is both high for a 1st level character and weirdly specific).

Can anyone enlighten me?

The 1,398 figure is if you're reducing a module credit, which covers a full level. The 500 figure is for scenarios.


Ah, thanks.

5/5 Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka Pirate Rob

That money is for when you play a lvl 4/7 pregen but award the credit to a 1st level character.

Grand Lodge

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Also, for those Tier 1-7 adventures (sub-tiers 1-2, 3-4, 6-7), you can not play more than 1 sub-tier away from your character level.

Examples:

If you are level 1 or level 2 you can not play in sub-tier 6-7.

If you are level 5, 6 or 7, you can not play in sub-tier 1-2.

The Exchange 5/5

Don Walker wrote:

Also, for those Tier 1-7 adventures (sub-tiers 1-2, 3-4, 6-7), you can not play more than 1 sub-tier away from your character level.

Examples:

If you are level 1 or level 2 you can not play in sub-tier 6-7.

If you are level 5, 6 or 7, you can not play in sub-tier 1-2.

Mr. Walker, not that I would, but I was under the impression that you COULD play the level 5 in sub-tier 1-2. Not the 6 or 7, as they are clearly in the higher sub-tier, but the 5 is between 3-4 and 6-7...

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
nosig wrote:
Don Walker wrote:

Also, for those Tier 1-7 adventures (sub-tiers 1-2, 3-4, 6-7), you can not play more than 1 sub-tier away from your character level.

Examples:

If you are level 1 or level 2 you can not play in sub-tier 6-7.

If you are level 5, 6 or 7, you can not play in sub-tier 1-2.

Mr. Walker, not that I would, but I was under the impression that you COULD play the level 5 in sub-tier 1-2. Not the 6 or 7, as they are clearly in the higher sub-tier, but the 5 is between 3-4 and 6-7...

Sadly no. As level 5 is not in either sub-tier 3-4 or 6-7, those two sub-tiers count as the "one away" from character level. Besides, how on earth would you figure the out of tier gold amount for a lvl 5 playing a 1-2? They're already getting the out of tier between two other sub-tiers!

Scarab Sages

Now how about the possibility of a group playing the 3-4 tier consisting of a level 1, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, and 6? Is this ok, since each is 1 tier away from each other?

Sovereign Court

Indeed it is okay. The level 3s and 4s will get the gold for sub-tier 3-4 while the lvl 6 will get the average between 3-4 and 6-7, and the lvl 1 will get the average between 1-2 and 3-4. =)

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Agent, United Kingdom—England—Chester aka Paz

Cao Phen wrote:
Now how about the possibility of a group playing the 3-4 tier consisting of a level 1, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, and 6? Is this ok, since each is 1 tier away from each other?

It is legal. However, I would generally be reluctant to run a table with such large differences between PC power levels.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Sior wrote:
Besides, how on earth would you figure the out of tier gold amount for a lvl 5 playing a 1-2?

By averaging the 1-2 and 3-4 subtiers, like you always do for a 1-7 scenario running the 1-2 subtier. Not that hard.

I'm not sure why a 5th level character can play 1-2 in a Tier 1-5 scenario but not in a 1-7 scenario, but that does appear to be the case. I would hope that the APL would end up being 3-4 so that the player does not have to play a 1st level character if he does not want to.

The Exchange

Sior wrote:
nosig wrote:
Don Walker wrote:

Also, for those Tier 1-7 adventures (sub-tiers 1-2, 3-4, 6-7), you can not play more than 1 sub-tier away from your character level.

Examples:

If you are level 1 or level 2 you can not play in sub-tier 6-7.

If you are level 5, 6 or 7, you can not play in sub-tier 1-2.

Mr. Walker, not that I would, but I was under the impression that you COULD play the level 5 in sub-tier 1-2. Not the 6 or 7, as they are clearly in the higher sub-tier, but the 5 is between 3-4 and 6-7...
Sadly no. As level 5 is not in either sub-tier 3-4 or 6-7, those two sub-tiers count as the "one away" from character level. Besides, how on earth would you figure the out of tier gold amount for a lvl 5 playing a 1-2? They're already getting the out of tier between two other sub-tiers!

I'd average the 6-7 and 1-2 gold and use that value

....

this is why we should be using actual XP and actual Gold for subtier
you wouldn't have to scale gold awarded because with actual XP you'd be getting more or less XP than normal, making more or less progress in advancement. so the higher or lower amount of gold would keep pace.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Chernobyl wrote:
I'd average the 6-7 and 1-2 gold and use that value

That would be incorrect.

The Exchange 5/5

TOZ wrote:
Chernobyl wrote:
I'd average the 6-7 and 1-2 gold and use that value
That would be incorrect.

thank you TOZ... I knew it was there someplace, but I couldn't find it ....

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Chernobyl wrote:
this is why we should be using actual XP and actual Gold for subtier

Ugh, no thanks. I like my 'do three missions and move on' style.

Sovereign Court

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Sior wrote:
Besides, how on earth would you figure the out of tier gold amount for a lvl 5 playing a 1-2?
By averaging the 1-2 and 3-4 subtiers, like you always do for a 1-7 scenario running the 1-2 subtier. Not that hard.

Not for a lvl 5 in a 1-7. In that post you linked, it specifically says the sub-tier above and the sub-tier below. For a level 5, that does not include 1-2. (It goes on with many saying a lvl 5 cannot play in sub-tier 1-2 in a 1-7. Honestly, why would you want to? Too damn easy, iffin' ya ask me.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Sior wrote:
Not for a lvl 5 in a 1-7. In that post you linked, it specifically says the sub-tier above and the sub-tier below.

...that you played. If you played 1-2, you average 1-2 and 3-4. Simple.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Sior wrote:
Not for a lvl 5 in a 1-7. In that post you linked, it specifically says the sub-tier above and the sub-tier below.
...that you played. If you played 1-2, you average 1-2 and 3-4. Simple.

For a PC who is 3rd or 4th level, playing in sub-tier 1-2 of a tier 1-7 scenario.

For a PC who is 5th level, because of the PFS rules, he cannot play in sub-tier 1-2 of a tier 1-7 scenario, because the one sub-tier below him is 3-4, not 1-2.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Yes, and I am talking about the rules for determining out of subtier gold, which don't say anything about that.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Yes, and I am talking about the rules for determining out of subtier gold, which don't say anything about that.

Right, but if you can't play in the subtier, then you can't get that gold in the first place.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

You guys sure like repeating yourselves...

Me wrote:
I'm not sure why a 5th level character can play 1-2 in a Tier 1-5 scenario but not in a 1-7 scenario, but that does appear to be the case.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas aka kinevon

TOZ wrote:

You guys sure like repeating yourselves...

Me wrote:
I'm not sure why a 5th level character can play 1-2 in a Tier 1-5 scenario but not in a 1-7 scenario, but that does appear to be the case.

Because of the way the sub-tiers are setup, in correlation to the rules in the Guide.

Remember that the 1-7s were a temporary solution to a problem that, nominally, no longer exists.

To be honest, 1-7s do not scale very well, and either wind up with the 6-7 being wimpy, or the 1-2 being extremely dangerous, especially for the 1st level PCs.

Shipyard Rats:
This one holds to the second side, where the 1-2 sub-tier runs very dangerous during one encounter, with a 3rd level negative channeling cleric, whose tactics are to hit the channeling early and often, either to heal her zombie minion, or to harm the party.

Once the party stopped doing any significant damage to the zombie, we started to see her channel negative to harm for 2d6, against 1st level PCs. No positive channeler in the party to help offset that, just an Oracle of Waves using a CLW wand, for the most part.

End result: Two dead PCs, and most of the rest in single digit or negative HPs...

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

I have a first level PC with chronicle sheets for Destiny of the Sands Part I & II. There's no way he'll be third level by the time I can play part III. Can I play a pre-gen and apply the chronicle to my character when he hits third level?

Shadow Lodge

roll4initiative wrote:
I have a first level PC with chronicle sheets for Destiny of the Sands Part I & II. There's no way he'll be third level by the time I can play part III. Can I play a pre-gen and apply the chronicle to my character when he hits third level?

Why not just wait until it's offered again?

5/5

roll4initiative wrote:
I have a first level PC with chronicle sheets for Destiny of the Sands Part I & II. There's no way he'll be third level by the time I can play part III. Can I play a pre-gen and apply the chronicle to my character when he hits third level?

Wouldn't see why not... It sounds like a perfectly good reason to play a pregen.

Only issue is the level to apply. You apply it at the level of the pregen, so either 4th or 7th in this instance, depending on which version is actually used in game play.

The Exchange 5/5

roll4initiative wrote:
I have a first level PC with chronicle sheets for Destiny of the Sands Part I & II. There's no way he'll be third level by the time I can play part III. Can I play a pre-gen and apply the chronicle to my character when he hits third level?

or run a replayable mod and a scenario (say Crypt of the Everflame and Confermation) and apply the judge credit to him.... (or heck, even just play those).

(edit: wait... I guess you don't have time?)

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

nosig wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:
I have a first level PC with chronicle sheets for Destiny of the Sands Part I & II. There's no way he'll be third level by the time I can play part III. Can I play a pre-gen and apply the chronicle to my character when he hits third level?

or run a replayable mod and a scenario (say Crypt of the Everflame and Confermation) and apply the judge credit to him.... (or heck, even just play those).

(edit: wait... I guess you don't have time?)

I'm hoping to do this but, yeah, I might not have time. I don't want to wait until it's offered again because I usually soon forget what happened in the previous scenarios. I have several characters that never completed some of the two or three parters.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

roll4initiative wrote:
I have a first level PC with chronicle sheets for Destiny of the Sands Part I & II. There's no way he'll be third level by the time I can play part III. Can I play a pre-gen and apply the chronicle to my character when he hits third level?

You do NOT want to run a pregen for part III, as you will miss out all the fun of using the boon from part II.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

TriOmegaZero wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:
I have a first level PC with chronicle sheets for Destiny of the Sands Part I & II. There's no way he'll be third level by the time I can play part III. Can I play a pre-gen and apply the chronicle to my character when he hits third level?
You do NOT want to run a pregen for part III, as you will miss out all the fun of using the boon from part II.

O.o

Good call. Looks like I'm gonna try to get a table together for Crypt/Everflame & I am running The Confirmation on Monday.

Thanks, guys!

The Exchange 5/5

roll4initiative wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:
I have a first level PC with chronicle sheets for Destiny of the Sands Part I & II. There's no way he'll be third level by the time I can play part III. Can I play a pre-gen and apply the chronicle to my character when he hits third level?
You do NOT want to run a pregen for part III, as you will miss out all the fun of using the boon from part II.

O.o

Good call. Looks like I'm gonna try to get a table together for Crypt/Everflame & I am running The Confirmation on Monday.

Thanks, guys!

or if you haven't played it yet with a 2nd level PC, you might try the first part of Thornkeep (it plays faster than Crypt).

Grand Lodge 4/5

nosig wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
roll4initiative wrote:
I have a first level PC with chronicle sheets for Destiny of the Sands Part I & II. There's no way he'll be third level by the time I can play part III. Can I play a pre-gen and apply the chronicle to my character when he hits third level?
You do NOT want to run a pregen for part III, as you will miss out all the fun of using the boon from part II.

O.o

Good call. Looks like I'm gonna try to get a table together for Crypt/Everflame & I am running The Confirmation on Monday.

Thanks, guys!

or if you haven't played it yet with a 2nd level PC, you might try the first part of Thornkeep (it plays faster than Crypt).

It's also far more likely to kill you in my experience.

Shadow Lodge

Well, he could run it and just kill everyone else.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver aka roll4initiative

Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
Well, he could run it and just kill everyone else.

I may do just that. I do own Thornkeep. ;)

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

Just tell them to bring brand new 1st level characters. :)

Shadow Lodge

That's how we played it. Good times.

The Exchange 5/5

roll4initiative wrote:
Conman the Bardbarian wrote:
Well, he could run it and just kill everyone else.
I may do just that. I do own Thornkeep. ;)

I've actually played thru this twice - the second time with a 1st level (Alchemist)....

Both times were fun, with balance parties of players that knew each other's play styles and we had a lot of fun both times (and finished with no one killed).

YMMV

The Exchange 5/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Just tell them to bring brand new 1st level characters. :)

nah, just play it in a group of 6 players, with two or three second levels...

Playing it with a PC that has done First Steps and Confirmation gives you some gold and PP going in, and those are both replayable scenarios..... and your PC jumps from 1.2 to 2.2 ...

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