Holy Vindicator, Stigmata


Advice


How should i describe my character's stigmata when it first happens? Does blood just start spewing out of my forearms onto my shield, and somehow or.other im harder to hit? Purely for character description as he unlocks thisnew ability. Could i have some suggestions?


Stigmata are typically described as flowing from the hands, brow, and feet, as well as the abdomen/side (Christ's wounds). I'd suggest something similar. Blood pouring out from the palms of your character's hands would certainly run the length of his or her blade and shield.

Bleeding from the eyes would also make for some cool imagery; akin to tears.


okay, thanks =] does anyone else have any thoughts??


has your character been subject to any wounds sustained while fighting any evil outsiders?

the scars of these wounds could be the source of your stigmata bleeding.
I wouldn't box the character into christ like wounds...
though the imagery of bleeding hands dripping down your blade does sound cool and flavorful.


I wonder if employing stigmata mightn't offend or upset certain Catholics specifically, or Christians in general, with whom you're gaming.

I'm a staunch Roman Catholic, and frankly I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. Strikes me as, perhaps, a little too close to impinging on those with religious sensibilities.


Stigmata does not have anything to do with Christ specifically. The ability says you bleed in a location appropriate to the deity you worship (Golarian deities). Using the ability channels a divine connection with your deity in the form of receiving a powerful divine blessing. The bleeding is your payment to the god for receiving the blessing. Perhaps such a strong bond between man and god is too much for the body to bear resulting in a symbolic bleeding as the power overflows from you.


Peachbottom wrote:
Stigmata does not have anything to do with Christ specifically.

I understand its use in Golarion, Peachbottom. I don't know that I'd readily accept it, because it is, in reality, so inextricably associated with Christianity and Christ that other applications seem, if not intentionally offensive, in some measure inappropriate.

I'm not attacking anyone who disagrees. Giridan asked for thoughts. I gave one of mine.

Dark Archive

Jaelithe wrote:

I wonder if employing stigmata mightn't offend or upset certain Catholics specifically, or Christians in general, with whom you're gaming.

I'm a staunch Roman Catholic, and frankly I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. Strikes me as, perhaps, a little too close to impinging on those with religious sensibilities.

Does a paladin using lay on hands offend you? Because that's a bibically based term too. Honestly, as a Christian, I'm more offended by the concept that it's okay to steal themes and tropes from other religions, but not from Christianity.

Back on topic: I would tailor the stigmata to your particular god. My Holy Vindicator of Asmodeus has a pentacle of blood trace itself on his forhead and starts bleeding from there.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Jaelithe wrote:

I wonder if employing stigmata mightn't offend or upset certain Catholics specifically, or Christians in general, with whom you're gaming.

I'm a staunch Roman Catholic, and frankly I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. Strikes me as, perhaps, a little too close to impinging on those with religious sensibilities.

Nobody is "impinging" on religious people by playing a make-believe fantasy character. Your religion is not diminished because I'm playing a character with a superficial reminiscence to your god.


Victor Zajic wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:

I wonder if employing stigmata mightn't offend or upset certain Catholics specifically, or Christians in general, with whom you're gaming.

I'm a staunch Roman Catholic, and frankly I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. Strikes me as, perhaps, a little too close to impinging on those with religious sensibilities.

Does a paladin using lay on hands offend you? Because that's a bibically based term too. Honestly, as a Christian, I'm more offended by the concept that it's okay to steal themes and tropes from other religions, but not from Christianity.

Lay on hands is an obvious euphemism for healing ... and healing is hardly unique to Christianity. Stigmata is self-evidently another matter entirely, as it's associated specifically with Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. If you choose not to see the distinction, so be it.

I don't think, quite honestly, though, that you're "as a Christian ... more offended," since as a Christian, by definition, you sincerely believe that your religion is more objectively reliant on revealed Truth than that of others (with the exception of Judaism)—though you may not broadcast that to family, friends and acquaintances who do not share your faith ... and rightly so. You have to live in the world, after all. You're likely more offended as a person who believes in freedom of religion and expression and the separation of church and state. And you're right: Everything is fair game in that world, including stigmata. I would never challenge that, for I believe it myself. And, frankly, I can absolutely see how someone would think it's pretty cool in a gaming context.

I didn't rant at this poster and demand he or she not use stigmata, now did I? I merely mentioned (and/or meant, if I was imprecise) that it's a unique enough phenomenon that employing it might disconcert certain sincere believers. I stand firmly by that. I honestly don't know how I'd react, but this conversation would likely incline me towards shrugging and muttering an internal, "Huh." Perhaps my vexation would be momentary and minimal; perhaps it would be nonexistent.

I thought it reasonable to mention. I still do.


The Morphling wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:

I wonder if employing stigmata mightn't offend or upset certain Catholics specifically, or Christians in general, with whom you're gaming.

I'm a staunch Roman Catholic, and frankly I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. Strikes me as, perhaps, a little too close to impinging on those with religious sensibilities.

Nobody is "impinging" on religious people by playing a make-believe fantasy character. Your religion is not diminished because I'm playing a character with a superficial reminiscence to your god.

First, I should have said, "impinging on a religious person's comfort level," rather than "impinging on those with religious sensibilities." Apologies for my imprecision.

Second, I agree wholeheartedly with your second statement. I never said or implied anything of the sort, so I don't know from whence that came.

At least one Christian, Victor Zajic, has stated he or she wouldn't have a problem with it. I take that as a good sign that my concerns are largely if not entirely unwarranted.


Victor Zajic wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:

I wonder if employing stigmata mightn't offend or upset certain Catholics specifically, or Christians in general, with whom you're gaming.

I'm a staunch Roman Catholic, and frankly I'm not sure how I'd feel about it. Strikes me as, perhaps, a little too close to impinging on those with religious sensibilities.

Does a paladin using lay on hands offend you? Because that's a bibically based term too. Honestly, as a Christian, I'm more offended by the concept that it's okay to steal themes and tropes from other religions, but not from Christianity.

Back on topic: I would tailor the stigmata to your particular god. My Holy Vindicator of Asmodeus has a pentacle of blood trace itself on his forhead and starts bleeding from there.

I'd enjoy seeing more faith-based PrCs and so on which were much less closely tied to Judeo-Christian or Eastern/Japanese mythology.

The stigmata is blatant, to be sure.

It does bring to mind if perhaps a second setting, aside from Golarion, could be developed for or if it already is.

Then again, if there was a 3PP who explored a settings with classes drawn from alternate faith and myth systems aside from Judeo-Christian and Eastern/Japanese, it would be wonderful. There may already be one.

In upcoming publications, the release of the PF shaman is nice, but the title is misleading.

While a great class, it isn't as truly "shaman" as much as a combination of classes that nods its head thematically to popular geek tropes (not a bad thing). The devs stated it shouldn't be compared to or draw from expectations of real world inspirations, iirc.

Anyhow, I'm derailing. :)


My character uses unarmed strikes, any direct ideas for this?


Perhaps your blood would heal those of good alignment, have no effect on neutrals, and burn those of evil alignment?


Giridan wrote:
How should i describe my character's stigmata when it first happens? Does blood just start spewing out of my forearms onto my shield, and somehow or.other im harder to hit? Purely for character description as he unlocks thisnew ability. Could i have some suggestions?

I like tying it to the deity they worship, if possible. For example, let's say that they're a Holy Vindicator of Zon Kuthon, I like to have the character's blood flow from their eyes and (supernaturally) form trails that resemble chains.

Obviously, this is harder with some deities than with others, but it's the type of little character fluff that I love adding to my divine characters.


I'm a Roman Catholic and it doesn't bother me. If anything, one can take it as a compliment that they are modeling an ability that appears in your faith.

Jaelithe wrote:
I take that as a good sign that my concerns are largely if not entirely unwarranted.

You are entitled to your own feelings. As long as everyone is an adult about it, we should all be ok.

I think what sandbox said would be the best. Wounds he received while carrying out the will of his gods would be the best idea.


Slacker2010 wrote:
I'm a Roman Catholic and it doesn't bother me. If anything, one can take it as a compliment that they are modeling an ability that appears in your faith.

One could certainly interpret in that fashion.

Quote:
You are entitled to your own feelings. As long as everyone is an adult about it, we should all be ok.

My own feelings on it are uncertain at best. My best guess is that it'd bother me slightly, and for a short time, but then I'd get over it.

Quote:
I think what sandbox said would be the best. Wounds he received while carrying out the will of his gods would be the best idea.

That seems reasonable and interesting.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

I'm glad you're not offended by the idea. It's hard to tell in a text-based medium, after all.

I just find it annoying when people consider Christian mythology "inappropriate" for RPG inspiration. A lot of it is really cool, and rich soil for growing some really interesting character concepts. My home campaign is actually heavily inspired by the interactions between a Judeo-Christian inspired monotheistic deity "taking over" a world that had previously been ruled by a pantheon of gods more reminiscent of the Greek and Norse pantheons.

The Holy Vindicator is perfect for players who want their character's theme to reference a different mythology than the usual themes.


Well, considering I have always, for 30+ years, used real-world religion in my games, it's not an issue I shy away from, by any means. Christianity and Islam have always held sway over much of both my home-brew and historical fantasy campaigns. I find made-up gods wildly uninteresting, frankly. (I've played with Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, Jews, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, eclectic neo-pagan feminists, Asatruists, Zoroastrians, Mormons, Jedi, Buddhists, Hindus and one or two guys that claim to have invented their own religion, among others. No one has ever been offended.)

My current project aborning is Holy Land: A Tale of the Crusades.

Whether I do anything with it is the question.


It's entirely up to you as to how you describe it.

I've always wanted to play a nice creepy HV worshiping Calistria with scars under her eyes: "I WEEP FOR MY GOD'S PLEASURE!" Then laugh maniacally and slaughter the PC's... as the GM of course.


Zoroastrians, really? Wow.


In that case, not a Persian, as might be reasonably inferred, but a WASP convert who'd decided that dualism appealed to him and declared himself a Zoroastrian.

I do believe he may have journeyed out to Chicago eventually, though, where there's a Zoroastrian community.


Furthermore wrote:
...laugh maniacally and slaughter the PC's... as the GM of course.

Of course.


I hadn't realized there were any Zoroastrians left, since Zoroastrianism was pretty much succeeded by Judaism and later Christianity/Islam. It's kind of like hearing that there's still Poseidon worshipers hangin' around; such ancient religions are pretty much unheard of these days.


Freddie Mercury's family was/is Zoroastrian.


Off the top of my head, there are:

  • the Parsis of India, where many Persians fled after the fall of the Sassanian Empire to burgeoning Islam.
  • the shrinking Zoroastrian community in Iran, persecuted for 1,300+ years by Islam, and likely not to see the 22nd century.
  • the group in Chicago.

Don't know about anymore, actually, though I'm sure they're out there.


Detect Magic wrote:
I hadn't realized there were any Zoroastrians left, since Zoroastrianism was pretty much succeeded by Judaism and later Christianity/Islam. It's kind of like hearing that there's still Poseidon worshipers hangin' around; such ancient religions are pretty much unheard of these days.

Actually, Judaism and Christianity absorbed quite a bit of theology from Zoroastrianism, and its people are considered "of the Book" by Iranian Muslims, which meant Muslims were to respect them and their beliefs.


Jaelithe wrote:
Lay on hands is an obvious euphemism for healing ... and healing is hardly unique to Christianity. Stigmata is self-evidently another matter entirely, as it's associated specifically with Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. If you choose not to see the distinction, so be it.

A quick Google search turns up two other religions that feature stigmata.


From what I understand, Buddhist "stigmata" is a somewhat different phenomenon, but I know little about it, other than that the lives of Prince Siddhartha and Francis of Assisi have some amazing parallels.

Islamic mystics sometimes manifest the wounds of Muhammad, if I'm not mistaken.

I also think there's some tribe that has something similar, and comparisons between it and Francis are also intriguing.

I'd say that none of those significantly challenges the assertion that stigmata is a primarily Christian manifestation, usually associated with Catholicism. "Specifically" was an overstatement, though.

Shadow Lodge

Giridan wrote:
How should i describe my character's stigmata when it first happens? Does blood just start spewing out of my forearms onto my shield, and somehow or.other im harder to hit? Purely for character description as he unlocks thisnew ability. Could i have some suggestions?

I've actually been contemplating making a Monk/Cleric/Holy Vindicator who is Dex-based and has his Stigmata be his holy symbol, already having been engraved into his chest[Monk to let him walk around shirtless without suffering AC], bleeding as a glowing wound that protects him.


Jaelithe wrote:

Well, considering I have always, for 30+ years, used real-world religion in my games, it's not an issue I shy away from, by any means. Christianity and Islam have always held sway over much of both my home-brew and historical fantasy campaigns. I find made-up gods wildly uninteresting, frankly.

You say that you find made up gods uninteresting, but you use these real-world gods in your world. Real world gods are made up, too, you know. And I say that (mostly) not as a snarky atheist, but from most religious people's point of view, every god except their own is made-up.

So what makes a real world made-up god more interesting than a made-up world made-up god?

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