Rapid Attack + Whirlwind Attack?


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can the two be combined? I'm not seeing why they couldn't be, but if they can, I'm not 100% sure how it's supposed to work.

Here's the relevant text:

Rapid Attack (Ex): At 11th level, a mobile fighter can combine a full-attack action with a single move. He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during his movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

This ability replaces armor training 3.

Whirlwind Attack
When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

So, by my reading, I can use the Whirlwind Attack feat, which is a full-attack action, as written, and combine that with a single move taking my remaining attacks at any point during my movement (!). The only issue with this is Rapid Attack normally must forgo the attack at my highest bonus, but with Whirlwind Attack all of the attacks are at my highest bonus.

I suppose with a very strict ruling you could say that since all of them are at my highest attack bonus, that I must forgo all of the attacks granted by Whirlwind Attack, thus the two abilities do not mix at all. On the other hand, being wildly liberal, one might rule that I merely give up one potential attack against an adjacent enemy and I then can attack all other opponents adjacent to me at every point of my move (since I can take my remaining attacks at any point during my movement).

How would you rule this to work, if at all?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

This is one of many reasons I've said that Whirlwind Attack should be parsed to be considered a single "swing" that hits everyone around you rather than a series of individual attacks. Sure, you get multiple attack rolls, one against each target, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't considered a single attack any less than Piercing Shot or Deadshot/Deadly Shuriken. So, since it is your attack at highest BAB, it would "technically" be allowed, but the net result makes it de facto not a valid combination because you'd be giving up your whole whirlwind "attack". However, mobile fighter gets the ability later to reduce the full-attack action to a Standard from Full-Round. Once you get that, you would be able to move into position, then just whirlwind as a standard. You could even combine it with Rapid Attack to take a normal move first, then your standard full-attack with a built-in move in place of your highest-BAB attack for an effective double-move + full-attack (- 1 attack). Couple that with a double weapon and you've got an awesome set of options. Two-Weapon Fight as a standard action or wield it as a two-handed weapon to make a whirlwind attack.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Kazaan wrote:
This is one of many reasons I've said that Whirlwind Attack should be parsed to be considered a single "swing" that hits everyone around you rather than a series of individual attacks. Sure, you get multiple attack rolls, one against each target, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't considered a single attack any less than Piercing Shot or Deadshot/Deadly Shuriken. So, since it is your attack at highest BAB, it would "technically" be allowed, but the net result makes it de facto not a valid combination because you'd be giving up your whole whirlwind "attack".

I'm not sure what Piercing Shot is, but Dead Shot, if you're talking about the Gunslinger deed, is absolutely completely different from Whirlwind Attack. You definitely aren't making a single attack as a full-round action. You are clearly making multiple attacks as a full-attack action. Dead Shot specifically calls out that you are making a single attack as a full-round action, but making multiple attack rolls to see if that single attack lands. Whirlwind Attack specifically calls out that you are using the full-attack action to make one melee attack against each opponent you threaten, so if you threaten three opponents, that's three attacks you're making (not just three attack roll, but three individual attacks), not one.

But still, I can understand the ruling, even if I'm not sure the rules agree with you. I don't know that the rules know what to do in this situation...

EDIT: Let's look at this another way. The only real hitch here is the text, "He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus," so how does Rapid Attack combine with, say, Haste or a similar effect? If the Fighter has two attacks at his highest attack bonus, should he only give up one or both of them? Because if he only has to give up one, then Rapid Attack and Whirlwind Attack should work together almost perfectly.


Non-issue.

PRD wrote:

Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

You don't get your extra attack from Haste when using Whirlwind Attack. And you completely missed the point of Dead Shot. The point I made was that it's a single attack and each attack roll was still part of that single attack against a single target. The only difference is that, with Whirlwind Attack, you're making a single attack that's "smeared" across several targets. Each target gets their own attack roll, but it's still considered one singular attack just as the multiple rolls for Dead Shot add up to one singular attack.

Piercing Shot is a class ability for the Crossbowman Fighter archetype that lets you fire "through" a target on a critical hit and also hit a character behind your initial target. It's all considered one attack, but you make separate attack rolls against each subsequent target; but all the damage is being done by a single shot.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

How it works:

You initiate the WWA, do not attack the enemy closest to you (or one of them, if two or more are equally close), and then take a move action, attacking every other enemy you come within reach of once.

It's a decent combo, still not amazing for its level and the massive amount of feats required, and you're still better off focus firing on each enemy until they drop than spreading out the damage. But certainly nifty. Sort of like the 3E Dervish prestige class's dervish dance + WWA, I loved that combo.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Kazaan wrote:

Non-issue.

PRD wrote:

Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
You don't get your extra attack from Haste when using Whirlwind Attack.

That's... not what I was talking about at all. I was talking about the interaction between Haste and Rapid Attack...

Quote:
And you completely missed the point of Dead Shot. The point I made was that it's a single attack and each attack roll was still part of that single attack against a single target. The only difference is that, with Whirlwind Attack, you're making a single attack that's "smeared" across several targets. Each target gets their own attack roll, but it's still considered one singular attack just as the multiple rolls for Dead Shot add up to one singular attack.

No, I didn't miss your point. You are missing the fact that the rules don't agree with you that Whirlwind Attack is a single attack. In fact the rules spell out quite clearly that it is multiple attacks and not just multiple attack rolls.

Go read Dead Shot's description and Whirlwind Attack's description one more time and tell me they're remotely similar in execution.

Back to the Haste point: How does Rapid Attack + Haste work? Do you lose one or both of your attacks at your highest attack bonus? If it's both, then Rapid Attack doesn't work with Whirlwind Attack. If it's just one, the Rapid Attack works with Whirlwind Attack just like StreamOfTheSky said.


Ziegander wrote:


Here's the relevant text:

Rapid Attack (Ex): At 11th level, a mobile fighter can combine a full-attack action with a single move. He must forgo the attack at his highest bonus but may take the remaining attacks at any point during his movement. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal.

This ability replaces armor training 3.

Whirlwind Attack
When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

I would like some more input on this since a player asked.

As I read it both the feat and the ability are asking you to trade the same thing for something else. Trading 'your attacks' for one thing means you no longer have it to trade for the other making it an either/or situation. The capstone ability of the mobile fighter seems to bear this out, as it allows you to combine the two.

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