Captain America: The Winter Soldier


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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Kairos Dawnfury wrote:
+1 For Doom, he is hands down my favorite villain.

I actually like the Fantastic Four themselves, and would also like to see them brought into the MCU.


About F4 and Doom (and crossovers):
The way they skirted "mutants" with miracles could potentially be just how Marvel ends up doing ALL of the marvelverse they don't have movie rights to. Perhaps Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are the result of gamma radiation...Ooooo that'd be cool. Leader?

Shadow Lodge

Bill Dunn wrote:
LazarX wrote:


I suspect those licenses probably have a fixed lifetime maybe 20 years or so, unless they somehow made a deal for a perpetual license.
They're probably not limited in that way unless the studio with the franchise license leaves the characters idle. In other words, my bet is that as long as Fox is making X-Men movies, the license is theirs. Once they stop, then I'd bet the rights would be lost to them after a fixed period of time.

At least you added the "probably". I find it amusing that so many people like to pretend that they have absolute knowledge of what the contracts entail.


Jaelithe wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
They aren't gods.
In the comics, they are.
But we aren't talking about the comics. Of course the fact that they're called gods in the comics is a bit arbitrary as there isn't much that sets them apart from other races of super power beings other than seniority.
Perhaps going back and reading more Thor might disabuse you of that notion.

Rather it's reading Thor and the rest of Marvel's races of super beings and giant armor clad space aliens meddling with human evolution that will give you that notion.

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It also has nothing to do with Clarke...
You take things a little too literally.
Better than taking things too figuratively, I suppose.
That would be the perspective of someone who takes things too literally, now wouldn't it?

Perhaps it would be better to think semantically on the subject ...


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Stop the argument. Please.

In-comics, it was generally accepted that they are magical, divine, and all that, as well as extra-terrestrial. There are gods and the divine. They're just not exactly the typical Western version of divine.

More recently, the concept of "super-science" has been gaining traction. This is, to a limited extent, how they explained things in the movies (though they clouded the concept with non-scientifically-possible stuff).

Okay, so there we go. /sniping?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
They aren't gods.
In the comics, they are.
But we aren't talking about the comics. Of course the fact that they're called gods in the comics is a bit arbitrary as there isn't much that sets them apart from other races of super power beings other than seniority.
Perhaps going back and reading more Thor might disabuse you of that notion.
Rather it's reading Thor and the rest of Marvel's races of super beings and giant armor clad space aliens meddling with human evolution that will give you that notion.

It may depend on which parts of the 50+ year history of Thor you read.

I remember those giant armor clad space aliens and the Eternals they created that sometimes passed as gods. I also remember them meeting the very gods they were pretending to be.

I remember both Thor and the Valkyrie escorting spirits of dead heroes to Valhala. I remember Hela claiming the spirits of other dead. I remember Thor being the son of Mother Earth. I remember plenty of sorcery and mythology and very little of the Asgardians being space aliens. They go off questing into space from time to time, but that's not the same thing.

Some writers in some eras have emphasized different things, but for the first few hundred issues at least there's plenty of magic and mythology and little of the Asgardians being high-tech space aliens. I haven't read a lot of Thor in last 10+ years, so maybe they've tone down the myth and brought up the space alien thing. I don't know.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Like I said, at this point, they are BOTH valid interpretations, each with a ton of resources backing them up from 50 years of comics.

It's right to say they are gods.

It's right to say they are extremely powerful aliens.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Tacticslion wrote:

Stop the argument. Please.

But, but someone disagrees with me on the internet!!!

;)


Grey Lensman wrote:
Tacticslion wrote:

Stop the argument. Please.

But, but someone disagrees with me on the internet!!!

;)

send out the ravens, raise our bannerman..and we have Ned out by spring..

sounds like a plan


thejeff wrote:

It may depend on which parts of the 50+ year history of Thor you read.

Yes, which the point I was trying to make.


And the point that I was trying to make is that the "they're gods" argument is obviously the far stronger one.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Jaelithe wrote:
And the point that I was trying to make is that the "they're gods" argument is obviously the far stronger one.

"Obviously?"

Just because something is obvious to you, does not mean that others will see it your way.


Lord Fyre wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
And the point that I was trying to make is that the "they're gods" argument is obviously the far stronger one.

"Obviously?"

Just because something is obvious to you, does not mean that others will see it your way.

I'm talking about sheer weight of canonical evidence, not my mere opinion.

No one's saying that the "powerful aliens" idea hasn't been postulated. I acknowledged it myself. But the overwhelming majority of material speaks of the Asgardians, Olympians, et al., as gods, and they've performed actions that only the gods can.

So ... yes, "obviously" is accurate.

The cinematic universe clearly espouses a different paradigm, and I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility of the comics ret-conning Thor into the scion of extraterrestrials.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Jaelithe wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
And the point that I was trying to make is that the "they're gods" argument is obviously the far stronger one.

"Obviously?"

Just because something is obvious to you, does not mean that others will see it your way.

I'm talking about sheer weight of canonical evidence, not my mere opinion.

No one's saying that the "powerful aliens" idea hasn't been postulated. I acknowledged it myself. But the overwhelming majority of material speaks of the Asgardians, Olympians, et al., as gods, and they've performed actions that only the gods can.

So ... yes, "obviously" is accurate.

The cinematic universe clearly espouses a different paradigm, and I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility of the comics ret-conning Thor into the scion of extraterrestrials.

You are factually correct, the Godhood of the Asgardians is established in the comics from the very first issues, all the way back to Journey into Mystery #83. (Thor's divine status is surprising due to the Comics Code Authority - in full effect at the time.)

However, you asserted your viewpoint without providing facts - which would have been comic references in this case. This presumed a familiarity with the character's publication history which is not always present.


Lord Fyre wrote:
However, you asserted your viewpoint without providing facts - which would have been comic references in this case.

Did I, now? I had previously written:

Quote:
That said, the writers who refer to them as "extremely powerful alien races" are simply wrong, in that aliens don't reign over mystical realms in which the souls of the dead are housed for eternity—locations that are canonically verifiable in the comics. That "they're just technologically-advanced aliens" idea gained prevalence during the brief "World Engine" run on Thor, but it's merely a theory espoused by a speculating writer in-universe, not an actual fact.

Considering that one could verify Thor's literal divine status by picking up the majority of issues, citing chapter and verse seemed wholly unnecessary.

I think this train of thought has run its course. Captain America should be the subject, so I'll just let this go, now.


DM Pendin Fust wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are special cases...they are mutants but IIRC originally introduced in the Avengers, so Fox and Marvel can both used them. Since Fox own the rights to mutants, they can't be referred to as mutants, nor can they be linked to magneto

That is not the case for the vast majority of mutants, or Spiderman, or fantastic four


Jaelithe wrote:
And the point that I was trying to make is that the "they're gods" argument is obviously the far stronger one.

No one has been arguing that they've never been identified as such in a comic book, or even if that is how they're usually identified. The question is what does calling them "gods" really mean within a universe full of super powered beings and races of immortals. Extra-dimensional aliens, gods, it's all semantics, really.


MMCJawa wrote:
DM Pendin Fust wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch are special cases...they are mutants but IIRC originally introduced in the Avengers, so Fox and Marvel can both used them. Since Fox own the rights to mutants, they can't be referred to as mutants, nor can they be linked to magneto

That is not the case for the vast majority of mutants, or Spiderman, or fantastic four

They were indeed mutants, but were introduced in the pages of X-Men as part of Magneto's Brotherhood of Evil Muntants, though they were revealed to only be members because Magneto had saved their lives and they were afraid of him.

The whole deal with Magneto being their father wasn't written in until much later (in the pages of Avengers, IIRC), they believed their birth parents to be a pair of WWII era superheroes for a while.

They crossed over to Avengers when the four remaining founders left and became heroes alongside Cap and Hawkeye. They, particularly Scarlet Witch, have been strongly associated with the Avengers ever since then.

They're a special case because, bluntly put, that's how Marvel negotiated things back when they licensed the X-Men film rights.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Lord Fyre wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
Lord Fyre wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
And the point that I was trying to make is that the "they're gods" argument is obviously the far stronger one.

"Obviously?"

Just because something is obvious to you, does not mean that others will see it your way.

I'm talking about sheer weight of canonical evidence, not my mere opinion.

No one's saying that the "powerful aliens" idea hasn't been postulated. I acknowledged it myself. But the overwhelming majority of material speaks of the Asgardians, Olympians, et al., as gods, and they've performed actions that only the gods can.

So ... yes, "obviously" is accurate.

The cinematic universe clearly espouses a different paradigm, and I certainly wouldn't discount the possibility of the comics ret-conning Thor into the scion of extraterrestrials.

You are factually correct, the Godhood of the Asgardians is established in the comics from the very first issues, all the way back to Journey into Mystery #83. (Thor's divine status is surprising due to the Comics Code Authority - in full effect at the time.)

However, you asserted your viewpoint without providing facts - which would have been comic references in this case. This presumed a familiarity with the character's publication history which is not always present.

What does godhood mean in comic terms, or at least Marvel's? No one worship's the Celestials but one of them literally laid waste to the ENTIRE Asgardian pantheon with one blow. Godhood seems to be more of a state of mind, or occupation, rather than have any inherent meaning. Godhood in comic terms is at the most a matter of perception.

Shadow Lodge

There's very little distinction. Especially when some of the "gods" have been severely beaten or even killed by beings that are blatantly not gods.

Silver Crusade

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Kthulhu wrote:
There's very little distinction. Especially when some of the "gods" have been severely beaten or even killed by beings that are blatantly not gods.

....puny gods....!

Shadow Lodge

Perfect example. As is the Sentry ripping Ares in half.

Sovereign Court

or Galactus putting the smackdown on old future Thor


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
or Galactus putting the smackdown on old future Thor

Of course, there's also Thor making Galactus run like a little girl ... and defeating Ego the Living Planet ... and knocking out the Phoenix with a single reflected blow ... and killing the Hulk and Thing without his godly powers ... and punching a hole in a Celestial's battle armor ... or later defeating the Sentry ...

And, actually, the Celestial host ganged up on Odin and the Destroyer. All ten of them did defeat them with relative ease, but ... that's hardly indicative of what might have occurred had he faced a single Celestial.

The fact that modern writers choose to portray the gods as relatively feeble simply means that such is the current trend. It may well swing back when the next generation of writers takes over. Alternately, it might get worse.

Frankly, I think the current portrayals suck.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jaelithe wrote:


And, actually, the Celestial host ganged up on Odin and the Destroyer. All ten of them did defeat them with relative ease, but ... that's hardly indicative of what might have occurred had he faced a single Celestial.

As I recall it was only ONE Celestial who actually fought the Asgardian host. Who was so badass he actually allowed himself to be run through with the Odinsword... the better to examine it's mystic properties. Before melting it with a gesture.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jaelithe wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
or Galactus putting the smackdown on old future Thor

Of course, there's also Thor making Galactus run like a little girl ... and defeating Ego the Living Planet ... and knocking out the Phoenix with a single reflected blow ... and killing the Hulk and Thing without his godly powers ... and punching a hole in a Celestial's battle armor ... or later defeating the Sentry ...

And, actually, the Celestial host ganged up on Odin and the Destroyer. All ten of them did defeat them with relative ease, but ... that's hardly indicative of what might have occurred had he faced a single Celestial.

The fact that modern writers choose to portray the gods as relatively feeble simply means that such is the current trend. It may well swing back when the next generation of writers takes over. Alternately, it might get worse.

Frankly, I think the current portrayals suck.

As I recall the only common element on those depicted as "gods" in the Marvel Universe is that they are all a product of the collective imaginations of various Human ethnic groups... like the gods in the Saberhagen stories.


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LazarX wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:


And, actually, the Celestial host ganged up on Odin and the Destroyer. All ten of them did defeat them with relative ease, but ... that's hardly indicative of what might have occurred had he faced a single Celestial.

As I recall it was only ONE Celestial who actually fought the Asgardian host.

Your recall isn't even close. Arishem himself did not participate, but the others did. Eventually, all of them combined their powers to destroy him ... but both Odin and the Destroyer recovered, interestingly enough. Odin was revived by a sliver of power from each Sky-Father, and the Destroyer simply because the Celestials evidently couldn't completely unmake him.

Again, it was ten Celestials against only three: Odin/the Asgardians, the Destroyer and the Uni-Mind.

Quote:
Who was so badass he actually allowed himself to be run through with the Odinsword... the better to examine it's mystic properties. Before melting it with a gesture.

That's essentially how that part occurred, yes. I'm not claiming that the gods were a match for the Celestials.

Interesting to note that later one of the Celestials' representatives mentioned that the bond between Thor and Mjolnir was so potent and sacred that the Celestials themselves respected it.

Quote:
As I recall the only common element on those depicted as "gods" in the Marvel Universe is that they are all a product of the collective imaginations of various Human ethnic groups... like the gods in the Saberhagen stories.

That's one interpretation, yes. On the other hand, Buri, Thor's great-grandfather, once said, "If I had been told conflicting stories by my father and a floating eyeball, I know whom I should believe." So that's up for grabs, too.

Actually, Thor mentions once, when speaking to a Catholic priest, that the gods spring from a higher universal force—that the priest's "faith is not misplaced."

It's all about what the current writer wants, clearly.


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Asgardians are aliens, by definition. Can we move along from this point or create a new thread to discuss it now?

Let's get back to Cap: TWS.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

I actually like what they are doing with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. better then The Winter Soldier.

While AoS doesn't have the huge effects budget, the writers have more time to be subtle.

Because of the time limitation, they had to expose the conspiracy too quickly - robbing it of its punch.

Spoiler:
The data file being encrypted by "Nick Fury" in such a way that Nick Fury could not decrypt it was pretty blatant.


Kthulhu wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
LazarX wrote:


I suspect those licenses probably have a fixed lifetime maybe 20 years or so, unless they somehow made a deal for a perpetual license.
They're probably not limited in that way unless the studio with the franchise license leaves the characters idle. In other words, my bet is that as long as Fox is making X-Men movies, the license is theirs. Once they stop, then I'd bet the rights would be lost to them after a fixed period of time.
At least you added the "probably". I find it amusing that so many people like to pretend that they have absolute knowledge of what the contracts entail.

It doesn't take that much work to look at the Daredevil case and Marvel regaining the license after Fox failed to make another DD flick to infer that's probably how the other licensing contracts are set up.

Shadow Lodge

Bill Dunn wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Bill Dunn wrote:
LazarX wrote:


I suspect those licenses probably have a fixed lifetime maybe 20 years or so, unless they somehow made a deal for a perpetual license.
They're probably not limited in that way unless the studio with the franchise license leaves the characters idle. In other words, my bet is that as long as Fox is making X-Men movies, the license is theirs. Once they stop, then I'd bet the rights would be lost to them after a fixed period of time.
At least you added the "probably". I find it amusing that so many people like to pretend that they have absolute knowledge of what the contracts entail.
It doesn't take that much work to look at the Daredevil case and Marvel regaining the license after Fox failed to make another DD flick to infer that's probably how the other licensing contracts are set up.

Because all contracts are always exactly the same.


Kthulhu wrote:
Because all contracts are always exactly the same.

A jerk? Don't be one.

Sovereign Court

I know, I know, but

HOW FREAKING COOL THIS WOULD BE!!!!!


Hama wrote:

I know, I know, but

HOW FREAKING COOL THIS WOULD BE!!!!!

Very cool.

Spoiler:
I'd be on the side of right, with Captain America!

Sovereign Court

Iron man for me. All the way.

Shadow Lodge

Depends on how willing they are to turn Iron Man into a villain.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Kthulhu wrote:
Depends on how willing they are to turn Iron Man into a villain.

That would also require signing Robert Downey Jr.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

hey, they did Civil War after like 50 years of comics! the villains had all been defeated and stored in Rykers / the Raft / Dimension 42.... we are JUUUUUST starting out in the movie / MCU... please, PLEASE don't ask for the heroes to become morally ambiguous JUST yet... (let ULTRON, DOOM, Skrulls, Kree, Galactus, the Wrecking Crew, the Black Panther, Moonknight, Iron Fist, Luke Cage, Daredevil, the Watcher, Nova, Tigra, Kraven, and Howard the Duck do their things before you give 'em all the idea to turn Cap on Tony! ;P )


Kthulhu wrote:
Depends on how willing they are to turn Iron Man into a villain.

Spoiler:
They certainly turned him into a villain during Civil War. I still can't get over the fact that they cloned Thor to make it seem as if he were supporting their reprehensible actions.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Jaelithe wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Depends on how willing they are to turn Iron Man into a villain.
** spoiler omitted **

One of the ironies is that Iron Man was "canonically" correct. This was why the fire fighters tackled Captain America in the final issue.

Sovereign Court

the cloning of Thor was the single dumbest thing they had Reed Richards do... a close second is the shipping of Hulk to Planet Hulk

Edit: hmmm... a Marvel Team-Up featuring Thor and Hulk seeking revenge on Reed Richards

HULK: "Goldielocks, hold THIS!" (hulk hands the foot of Reed Richards to thor, takes the other foot, and jumps far, FAR AWAY!!!!!!!!!)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

the cloning of Thor was the single dumbest thing they had Reed Richards do... a close second is the shipping of Hulk to Planet Hulk

Edit: hmmm... a Marvel Team-Up featuring Thor and Hulk seeking revenge on Reed Richards

HULK: "Goldielocks, hold THIS!" (hulk hands the foot of Reed Richards to thor, takes the other foot, and jumps far, FAR AWAY!!!!!!!!!)

I think we can, easily, agree that this was the worst story-line that MARVEL has ever written. (Not a small accomplishment when your canon includes One More Day.)

Dark Archive

Lord Fyre wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

the cloning of Thor was the single dumbest thing they had Reed Richards do... a close second is the shipping of Hulk to Planet Hulk

Edit: hmmm... a Marvel Team-Up featuring Thor and Hulk seeking revenge on Reed Richards

HULK: "Goldielocks, hold THIS!" (hulk hands the foot of Reed Richards to thor, takes the other foot, and jumps far, FAR AWAY!!!!!!!!!)

I think we can, easily, agree that this was the worst story-line that MARVEL has ever written. (Not a small accomplishment when your canon includes One More Day.)

Which in itself was a direct result of the civil war storyline.

Shadow Lodge

Of all heroes that would volunteer to expose their identity, Spidey should have been been the last. How much had simply ONE villain, Osborne, knowing his identity cost him?


Okay, I haven't read the whole thread, but from the first page: "Winter Soldier" is a reference to a 1776 pamphlet titled "The Crisis", by Thomas Paine.


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Civil War was the end of my interest in a lot of things Marvel. It's stupid, ham-handed, uses pathetic attempts at symbolism and emotionality that consistently manage to feel as inspiring as Teletubbies, it manages an amount of characters doing bizarre things against their entire characters and/or stupidities not worth thinking about, it manages to entirely miss the entire point of the entire genre... I could go on. If it had been a movie, it would have been cozy somewhere between "Manos, hands of fate" and "Plan 9 from Outer Space".

The Onslaught storyline had the idea of all the non-mutant heroes ending up in a world where they were admired and appreciated, and the mutants getting the old Marvel Earth. It may have lacked in execution, but the idea was decent. A year or so later, this was rolled back. Civil War never was - I am certain the comic about the North Dakotan super team is selling magnificently.

Shadow Lodge

Hey, Fargo Force is awesome, donchaknow!


Thanks for spoilering Civil War for me. Yes I know it's old, but just haven't got round to reading it yet. If this was a thread about Civil War, I'd not be making this comment, but it isn't, so I am.

Although saying that, it has got fairly OT for a while now. Anyway:

Sarak - search the thread for 'Winter Soldier' - it has been brought up quite a few times. :-)

Sovereign Court

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Spoilering Civil War is an oxymoron: you can spoil something that's rotten

Silver Crusade

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Spoilering Civil War is an oxymoron: you can spoil something that's rotten

Civil...war...! There's a clue in the name!

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