ok remy, lets look at this from another point of view.
lets say that this is the scenario: the ninja is not using invisibility at all, instead he is using disguise self and is just standing around in the same crowd as his targets. he kills the first one using assassinate and a a hidden weapon (with a very high slight of hand check).
everyone in the crowd, you, the ninja, and myself, all "see the target drop dead". as you and i are looking around for "who done it", we see the ninja, but to us he looks just as horrified and worried as we do, and he in now staring intently at the guy next to him with a look of horror on his face and not moving, presumably out of fear that he might be next.
how do you recognize that the ninja as the enemy here? he is just as likely to be one of the victims as you or i are about to be. we have no idea, but he looks just as piss your pants scared as we are.
once you or i make a sense motive check against the ninja, (if we pass the DC) we will discover that he is very intent on killing the guy next to him now (metagame: hes already studying his next target), but before that check it looks like he is just scared.
i as the player in the crowd see the ninja looking in fear at the guy next to him, my first instinct when the GM tells me that is to think the guy the ninja is looking at might possibly be the enemy, not the ninja, so i dont even bother making a sense motive check against the ninja, i make it against the other guy (the one thats about to get dead) because i think he is the bad guy. never in this scenario did i identify the enemy.
what did you do? what it stopping the ninja from killing the second guy? no one has yet figured out that the ninja is the one person in this crowd who is doing the killing. is it possible that you might make a different conclusion than i did and make the correct sense motive check against the correct person? sure, but right now it isn't your turn yet and no one has identified him as the assailant. so long as you or i (as the players in this) never make a sense motive check against the ninja, everyone still alive in this crowd is both a potential victim, and also a potential enemy. we cant just kill them all to solve the problem, and we cant assume everyone is innocent. but we still havent identified the ninja as an enemy, we've only identified that someone here IS the enemy, no clue who it is though.
As far as the game goes if the murder is in full view. And no invisibility is used everyone sees who did it.
At that point he's lost his cover. However if the victim dies around a corner the pc may find the waiter (ninja in disguise) is giving the victim cpr. In the second case the ninja may not have been identified.
On the greater invisibility thing try this. The ninja kills someone and instead of hanging arou d just leaves.
Has he been identified? He plans to come back on 20 .onutes. but the pc who just saw thorfin the mighty fall over.
Or he stands behind the wizard doing sharades invisibly for 5 rounds if the pc can't see them. What if the murder is in a city the ninja walks around a corner disguises as the city guard and then arives on the scene is he still identified?
You can't identify someone as anything if you can't see or describe them.
The ops party died for two reasons 1) the ops dm is a jerk who made the players sit through it all rather thsn just telling them they were all dead. 2) somehow the pc had no one with detect invis.
The ops party died for two reasons ... somehow the pc had no one with detect invis.
"Somehow" being that the GM killed their caster first.
As far as the game goes if the murder is in full view. And no invisibility is used everyone sees who did it.
At that point he's lost his cover. However if the victim dies around a corner the pc may find the waiter (ninja in disguise) is giving the victim cpr. In the second case the ninja may not have been identified.
On the greater invisibility thing try this. The ninja kills someone and instead of hanging arou d just leaves.
Has he been identified? He plans to come back on 20 .onutes. but the pc who just saw thorfin the mighty fall over.
Or he stands behind the wizard doing sharades invisibly for 5 rounds if the pc can't see them. What if the murder is in a city the ninja walks around a corner disguises as the city guard and then arives on the scene is he still identified?
You can't identify someone as anything if you can't see or describe them.
The ops party died for two reasons 1) the ops dm is a jerk who made the players sit through it all rather thsn just telling them they were all dead. 2) somehow the pc had no one with detect invis.
the bolded part is incorrect. it is quite possible to stab someone in this game with a hidden weapon and a slight of hand check while disguised and even with someone staring right at you, if they fail a perception check, they never notice you stabbed the guy. you dont need invisibility to do this. and you are never detected. now, you CAN say that the person staring at them can PRESUME to know who did it, but he can be just as wrong or right on either account.
ok remy, lets look at this from another point of view.
lets say that this is the scenario: the ninja is not using invisibility at all, instead he is using disguise self and is just standing around in the same crowd as his targets. he kills the first one using assassinate and a a hidden weapon (with a very high slight of hand check).
everyone in the crowd, you, the ninja, and myself, all "see the target drop dead". as you and i are looking around for "who done it", we see the ninja, but to us he looks just as horrified and worried as we do, and he in now staring intently at the guy next to him with a look of horror on his face and not moving, presumably out of fear that he might be next.
how do you recognize that the ninja as the enemy here? he is just as likely to be one of the victims as you or i are about to be. we have no idea, but he looks just as piss your pants scared as we are.
once you or i make a sense motive check against the ninja, (if we pass the DC) we will discover that he is very intent on killing the guy next to him now (metagame: hes already studying his next target), but before that check it looks like he is just scared.
i as the player in the crowd see the ninja looking in fear at the guy next to him, my first instinct when the GM tells me that is to think the guy the ninja is looking at might possibly be the enemy, not the ninja, so i dont even bother making a sense motive check against the ninja, i make it against the other guy (the one thats about to get dead) because i think he is the bad guy. never in this scenario did i identify the enemy.
what did you do? what it stopping the ninja from killing the second guy? no one has yet figured out that the ninja is the one person in this crowd who is doing the killing. is it possible that you might make a different conclusion than i did and make the correct sense motive check against the correct person? sure, but right now it isn't your turn yet and no one has identified him as the assailant. so long as you or i (as the...
Lol. It doesn't matter what you do. You might have seen the whole thing, you might know that the ninja is specifically an enemy and could point him out of a line up or draw his face from memory. You could have true seeing running and know everything that is going on. You could roll 100 on a sense motive and know without a shadow of a doubt that he is about to kill the dude next to him...
None of that stops his assassinate from working.
The target has to recognize the ninja as an enemy.
Does the target know that there is an enemy yet? He might. He might be confused; he could be a little slow on the uptake. Or he could be battle hardened and highly reactive to combat, with honed battle instincts and knows that there is trouble. (Like orcs or adventurer types often are)
You haven't told us anything about the target. So... he might recognize that the ninja is an enemy, or he might not.
But it has nothing to do with you or me or any other observer. If the target recognizes, then the attempt fails.
thats the point! if the target cant point him out in a lineup, see him with trueseeing or hasn't yet made a sense motive check to know that the assassin wants to kill him, HOW HAS HE IDENTIFIED THE ASSASSIN AS ANYTHING MORE THEN JUST ANOTHER PERSON IN THE CROWD? simple, he hasn't. the target has to DO SOMETHING that helps to identify the assassin as an enemy. he may know that a threat exists, yes, but he has no clue who the ENEMY is....
thats the point! if the target cant point him out in a lineup, see him with trueseeing or hasn't yet made a sense motive check to know that the assassin wants to kill him, HOW HAS HE IDENTIFIED THE ASSASSIN AS ANYTHING MORE THEN JUST ANOTHER PERSON IN THE CROWD? simple, he hasn't. the target has to DO SOMETHING that helps to identify the assassin as an enemy. he may know that a threat exists, yes, but he has no clue who the ENEMY is....
Naw dude. You totally misread what I wrote.
Does dude think there is an enemy there? Yes or no?
Like, me personally, if I was in a group of people and some dude got shanked... I would treat everyone as an enemy. I don't even care.
You get too close and that ain't gunna go well for you. All I'd be doing is watching my back, scanning for the killer, on full red alert.
But... I was once a soldier. I've been trained, I react to danger differently than many people would.
So... I might not know who the enemy is. But I most certainly recognize the ninja as an enemy. As far as I am concerned, in that situation... everything is an enemy.
But the question was about the guy, not about me. Does he recognize the ninja as an enemy. This is your hypothetical... so how do I know anything about him but what you tell me? You haven't told me how he reacts. He likely has different psychology than I do, how would he react?
Does he break down in panic and just freeze? Does he react in any way at all? Or is he cool under stress and his mind can recognize what is happening around him? Has he even fully processed what just happened yet, or is his mind still reeling and rejecting reality?
I cannot know this, so I asked. That isn't a "gotcha" moment for you. Lol... anyway, like I said... if he is combat trained in any degree, he has probably recognized the ninja as an enemy... and if he is just a regular joe he probably hasn't.
i, too am in the Army. (thanks btw), so i see your point. but for the sake of the hypothetical, lets change the upcoming target to you. you have made no checks, done nothing (because its not your turn yet). just because you deem everyone around as a "potential" enemy, you have not, at this point, IDENTIFIED the ninja as an enemy. you have just made a paranoid determination that anyone who gets too close is getting stabbed. there's nothing wrong with doing that, at all. but just doing that, does not fulfill the 'Assassinate' clause that "the target has identified the ninja as an enemy".
in game terms, what you want to do is ready an action to attack anyone who gets within 5' of you. but that readied action does not stop the 'Assassinate' ability from functioning.
i, too am in the Army. (thanks btw), so i see your point. but for the sake of the hypothetical, lets change the upcoming target to you. you have made no checks, done nothing (because its not your turn yet). just because you deem everyone around as a "potential" enemy, you have not, at this point, IDENTIFIED the ninja as an enemy. you have just made a paranoid determination that anyone who gets too close is getting stabbed. there's nothing wrong with doing that, at all. but just doing that, does not fulfill the 'Assassinate' clause that "the target has identified the ninja as an enemy".
in game terms, what you want to do is ready an action to attack anyone who gets within 5' of you. but that readied action does not stop the 'Assassinate' ability from functioning.
I disagree. But that is fine. We can disagree on how to determine enemies.
I am curious though... in your opinion, what does allow someone to recognize the ninja as an enemy?
In the above example, until proven otherwise, everything is a threat to me. My first response would be to put space between myself and everyone else, and ready an action to attack anyone who gets close.
So... if he is getting close, my attention would be fixed on him, and I would have every intention of taking him down.
How have I not recognized him as an enemy? What would it take for me to be able to, in your opinion?
I believe in all of the examples the ninja is suppose to be considered under the effects of greater invisibility
So to answer your question clearly...seeing him would allow you to recognize him as the enemy (or locating him in such a way that his location was always known or known at the point be attacked you)
i, too am in the Army. (thanks btw), so i see your point. but for the sake of the hypothetical, lets change the upcoming target to you. you have made no checks, done nothing (because its not your turn yet). just because you deem everyone around as a "potential" enemy, you have not, at this point, IDENTIFIED the ninja as an enemy. you have just made a paranoid determination that anyone who gets too close is getting stabbed. there's nothing wrong with doing that, at all. but just doing that, does not fulfill the 'Assassinate' clause that "the target has identified the ninja as an enemy".
in game terms, what you want to do is ready an action to attack anyone who gets within 5' of you. but that readied action does not stop the 'Assassinate' ability from functioning.
I disagree. But that is fine. We can disagree on how to determine enemies.
I am curious though... in your opinion, what does allow someone to recognize the ninja as an enemy?
In the above example, until proven otherwise, everything is a threat to me. My first response would be to put space between myself and everyone else, and ready an action to attack anyone who gets close.
So... if he is getting close, my attention would be fixed on him, and I would have every intention of taking him down.
How have I not recognized him as an enemy? What would it take for me to be able to, in your opinion?
i would say that once you have focused on him (me being the GM) i would allow a sense motive check (because you clearly see anything moving towards you as a potential enemy, and now must actually determine if he is or not) to determine why he is moving in your direction. if you succeed, you have identified him as wanting to hurt you, and this would cause his assassinate to auto-fail.
i would say that once you have focused on him (me being the GM) i would allow a sense motive check (because you clearly see anything moving towards you as a potential enemy, and now must actually determine if he is or not) to determine why he is moving in your direction. if you succeed, you have identified him as wanting to hurt you, and this would cause his assassinate to auto-fail.
Hrm, I suspect that is at the heart of the disagreement, then. I don't think any check needs to be involved to call someone an enemy. You just call them one when you decide they are one.
Now that I can agree with...but that was never part of my own disagreement :)
That's a good explanation of that lol...hope she got a good deal on the insurance