When I made my wizard for PFS (my very first character), I didn't know about the upgrading rules in PFS, so I chose a weapon for him. Now that I know about them, I'd rather have a ring or an amulet. The cost to change an Arcane Bond Item is 200 x wizard level + mwk item cost. What's the cost for a ring or amulet (or a mwk ring or amulet) that isn't a preexisting magic item? Is there a cost for one?
I was trying to figure this out by looking at rules for other mwk items, but the costs vary wildly. A mwk weapon is +300g, mwk armor and shields are +150g, mwk musical instruments are +95g, and mwk tools are +50g. And when looking at prices of jewelry that goes with certain outfits, jewlry looks like it comes in prices of "whatever you can afford."
Once I switch, I'll still have the old mwk weapon (which I have never and most assuredly will never use). I cannot sell this because I originally got it for free, correct?
Also, I'm trying to decide whether to upgrade to a Amulet of Spell Mastery or Ring of Wizardry. I don't think this is the case, but just to double check, you cannot upgrade a Ring of Wizardry (II -> III, for example) by PFS item upgrade rules, correct? I remember reading a good long while ago that RoW was specifically called out as being something non-upgradable, but I couldn't find that statement.
It varies widely. When in doubt, use the +500 gp/lb formula for a mithral item, which is always masterwork. If you want the ring made out of something else, there's lots of different special materials that help you figure out the exact value of the item in question.
TheFlyingPhoton wrote:
Once I switch, I'll still have the old mwk weapon (which I have never and most assuredly will never use). I cannot sell this because I originally got it for free, correct?
Correct.
TheFlyingPhoton wrote:
Also, I'm trying to decide whether to upgrade to a Amulet of Spell Mastery or Ring of Wizardry. I don't think this is the case, but just to double check, you cannot upgrade a Ring of Wizardry (II -> III, for example) by PFS item upgrade rules, correct? I remember reading a good long while ago that RoW was specifically called out as being something non-upgradable, but I couldn't find that statement.
Ring of Wizardry is nonupgradeable.
When thinking about The Ring of Wizardry and the concept of upgrading magical items, it makes intuitive sense you can't upgrade that particular item. Upgrading is about adding something to an existing item, not changing it.
For example, going from a +1 longsword to a +2 longsword adds something to the long sword. What it did before was add 1 to the attack and damage rolls of the sword, and now it is doing that and it's also getting another 1 on top of those two rolls. Upgrading a Belt of Strength +2 to a Belt of Physical Might +2 (with +2 Str and +2 Con) means adding a new ability to the same item - it has the +2 Str it always had, and now it has a +2 Con on top of that.
Upgrading a Ring of Wizardry from I to II wouldn't be adding anything, it would be changing what it does. The Ring II doesn't have the same ability the Ring I had, it has a different (though similar) ability. Likewise, I don't think you could (/should?) upgrade a Belt of Strength +2 to a Belt of Physical Might +2 with +2 Dex and +2 Con.
Trying to price out a non-specific ring or amulet using materials costs seems problematic. Based on searching through the forums on the issue of upgrading, I've seen it ruled by the authorities that upgrading cannot change the basic material it is made out of (the example I ran into that was not allowed was upgrading mithral armor into Celestial Armor because Celestial Armor is listed as being made out of silver and/or gold, not mithral). If I decide to go with the Amulet of Spell Mastery, I would need platinum, which doesn't have rules for pricing when making things out of it. If I go the ring route, then I run into trouble again with rings not having a weight. Then there's the issue of adding the masterwork cost on top of that, since neither are made of adamantine, mithral, darkwood, etc - the materials that are always masterwork.
Which brings up a whole new question - is there even a such thing as a masterwork amulet or ring?
The FlyingPhoton said wrote: Which brings up a whole new question - is there even a such thing as a masterwork amulet or ring? RAW, no. There are some accessory-type items that provide circumstance bonuses to various social skills - but the price of these items are arbitrary. When creating a masterwork and otherwise un-enchanted item, specifically for an arcane bond, I have obviated the cost of creating the item in all cases as the ritual to create the arcane bond clearly exceeds the cost of the item in most cases. It is worth noting that RAW you are supposed to add the MW item's cost. Not all judgments are likely to be as fair, but for 200gp/level there's no sense in twisting the knife any further over chump change. Particularly if the previous item was sundered...
If you absolutely must use a written citation for creating a masterwork item, then refer to the description of the Masterwork Transformation spell. It clearly states that a tool is 50gp, which is more than a fair price for something like a ring or amulet.
It is worth noting you can upgrade a Belt of Strength to a Belt of Physical Might, but this would be one of the few corner cases.
Also, make sure you use the most recent sources for item upgrades - as of this writing, it tends to be Ultimate Equipment which went out of its way to remove special materials from their descriptions. Celestial Armor has no materials listed, although creating this armor from special materials would arguably negate the special properties of those materials (such as adamantine), especially if the written description of the item provides specific statistics. It is valid to upgrade any otherwise normal +3 chainmail to Celestial Armor, provided your source used is Ultimate Equipment. The PRD online does have a different item description.
At my Wizard's current level, I don't think anyone's going to really care about the difference between 50 and 300 gold. I just personally like to make sure I'm following the rules to the letter.
The whole bit about the Belts of Strength/Physical Might was me just expositing my thoughts on the nature of upgrading magic items. Even with the ideas behind what upgrading a magic item as an act is, it's probably still legal to go from a Belt of Strength to Physical Might thats bonuses are in Dex and Con. It's probably not something that has ever come up because when is anyone who knows they want the BoPM to have Dex and Con going to get a Belt of Strength along the way (or similar arrangement)?
Interesting to see that change about the item descriptions. The forum posts I was referring to were all pretty old.
TheFlyingPhoton wrote: The whole bit about the Belts of Strength/Physical Might was me just expositing my thoughts on the nature of upgrading magic items. Even with the ideas behind what upgrading a magic item as an act is, it's probably still legal to go from a Belt of Strength to Physical Might thats bonuses are in Dex and Con. It's probably not something that has ever come up because when is anyone who knows they want the BoPM to have Dex and Con going to get a Belt of Strength along the way (or similar arrangement)? when making a legal item upgrade. The base pre-upgrade item must still be present post-upgrade. Example you could take a +2 Str belt and upgrade it to +4 Str, +2 Str/+2 Dex, +2 Str/+2 Con or +2 Str/+2 Dex/+2 Con.
You can't change a +4 Str belt into a +2 Str/+2 Con belt. Because the upgraded item doesn't include the original item.
You also can't change a +2 Str belt into a +2 Dex/+2 Con belt like in your example. Because the upgraded item doesn't include the original item.
Oh, okay. That's what I thought it was.
Instead of clicking that one link at the top of the page, I just posted anyways. And ended up trying to derail my own thread.
Sometimes I feel like Im the only Wizard player who took the familiar choice over the arcane bonded item :)
Me have familiar. Mr. Fluffy make me go fast.
Familiars are popular here (one player calls them shoulder turrets) because you can cast a spell on them like fire breath, burning gaze, and firestream. I like the ability to call upon any spell in my book personally. It plays to the wizards flexibility especially in short scenarios like PFS.
The craft DC for a high quality item is 15. They use bell as an example & I would put that in the same category of a ring (at least for a bell with a quality sounds). A bell costs 10 silver & a signet ring costs 50 silver.
Masterwork has its own DC of 20. To make a masterwork high-quality-item would require a DC 15 + DC 20. One multiplies the DC by skill roll to reach the item's cost in silver to determine success. Assuming the minimum rolls are needed: 15x15=225 and 20x20=400 is a total of 625 silver. I would set the price of a masterwork ring at 62 gold (rounded to 65?). One could argue the MW costs includes the original craft cost and drops the total to 40. Note the MW tool price (50 gp) falls neatly in the middle of this range.
Not sure it helps, but since my -1 is a master jeweler I have played with it quite a bit. :)
Curaigh wrote: One multiplies the DC by skill roll to reach the item's cost in silver to determine success. Not exactly... one multiplies DC by skill roll to determine progress in silver pieces. The 'goal' or total is determined by the items cost...
For the OP: Don't worry about it.
Matthew Pittard wrote: Sometimes I feel like Im the only Wizard player who took the familiar choice over the arcane bonded item :) I took the familiar. And there's nothing you can do to take The Icon (greensting scorpion) away from me.
My first diviner wizard, who is now close to retirement, went with the greensting scorpion.
His replacement, who played in his first scenario on monday, has a bow as his arcane bond. Being able to hit and do damage was a real surprise on a first level wizard. Later, he may go for a staff or ring, but no familiar for him.
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