| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Class:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4o19rOxPaipS2xtQ0NvMUVYVHc/edit?usp=shari ng
The Reflections:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4o19rOxPaipVC1Xc3dSQl9QaTQ/edit?usp=shari ng
For the past two weeks or so, I have been working on a "Prince" class whose existence is compelled by a few things:
First, I wanted to make a lazy lord class for Pathfinder. Though there are a few ways to do it already, I wanted to make a class that gains this ability as a core class feature.
Second, I wanted to make a half BAB class that approaches Wizards in their complexity and versatility without just giving them full casting. I did end up giving them access to a lot of spells through the Spell Crafter reflections (which will take you some reading to understand what I mean), but the class is not overflowing with spell slots to to solve problems.
Third, I wanted a factotum-style face class that is not the bard. Moreover, I wanted the class to ACTUALLY be able to fill in for missing party roles rather than just pretend to fill them in while playing sick guitar riffs of power (I have some other factotum-y ideas that I might implement as an archetype later).
And fourth, I wanted an actual prince class that kind of sucked but had minions and the resources of a kingdom to help solve his problems. I am not sure how balanced this part of the class is, but it makes up a lot of the class's class features in the second half of the class. I pretty much give them an partly expanded and partly limited version of the Leadership feat.
I am looking for really any sort of constructive feedback. I reserve the right to chastise anyone I think is being a dick. I will chastise them so damn hard, you guys. It will be nuts.
Let me jump out ahead of one criticism though:
"You should call this class something else" and/or "This is not what I think of when I think of a `prince' class"
Rebuttal:
No YOU call the class something different! May I suggest Magical Prince, Spirit Binder, Ghost Lord, Genie/Imp/Elemental/etc. Master, Archpimp or some combination thereof?
I chose just the name prince because this is the class I made when I followed the concept of a Prince character class to its logical conclusion. They need magic to access their kingdoms and minions in a way that starts to be either balanced or possible.
Moreover, I wanted to call the class something descriptive and evocative while also remaining a single word. I want the player to be reminded of a sort of Miltonic sinister "Prince" or Machiavelli's "The Prince" when they read through the character. Also Aladdin. Some stuff in this class is inspired by that one scene in Aladdin.
Thanks. I apparently don't know how to internet.
Some notes:
The complexity of the class is very high. It requires keeping track of not only the prince but each of the reflections as they're essentially PCs. Is it supposed to be a one man army? Are the things he summons full fledged versions of the class it's based on? Like the mage. How many spells per day does he get? Or is it just the one magic missle?
When a reflection is destroyed, why not just be subdual damage dealt? It can reduce him to -1 hit points but can't kill him. Sounds kind of like subdual damage and no need for an additional rule.
Impossible Self-Discipline is hard to read. He uses a standard action to grant himself a standard action? And then a full round action to grant a full round action? If so that's redundant. Just word it to give himself the bonus on 1 attack as a free action and later on to every attack he makes. It makes the ability less clunky.
So for Ghostly Demesne, if one of his ancestors left something in there he can go in and find it? The whole ability is a little wonky.
So he's creating a kingdom inside himself that's made of imaginary people who slowly become real? If he passes the kingdom onto an heir does the heir start off with the kingdom as is or do they need to build it back up as per the class? That's a weird rule by the way. If so what happens to the real people who moved in through the city of mist feature? Do they become imaginary until made real again?
Also you mention that the people don't look normal. Do they start looking more average as time goes on? I can't imagine commoners moving into a place where the people are "very alien in their appearance".
So you have to equip everything you summon if you don't learn how to summon the armorer? That's rough, but I suppose a prince or king would have a lot of money? It's essentially a forced reflection.
For bound reflections just make it level 4 and every 4 levels there after. It seems strange to have it be every 4 levels and only 3 right there at the end.
Some proofreading notes:
Your spells known list gets cut off.
It says summoner a bunch of times when it should say prince in the casting section.
Should imps appear angelic and archons fiendish? Also you say imps instead of archon in it's listing.
You mention eidolens. I suppose that's copy/paste overflow.
Lots of small stuff like grammar errors and the like.
Overall thoughts:
It has some strange mechanics (such as being able to pass stuff on). I can't get a good bead yet on how powerful the mechanics of the reflections are. They read like they're full powered PCs with extra powers, but with less hit points. Is so that's a little nuts.
Well, no Reflection can even full attack or charge unless they are bound, and they don't have any feats or skills other than the ones they are given in their listing. Once certain reflections are bound, then they can full attack and are pretty powerful physical combatant that can approach the utility of having an actual warrior(though they are somewhat weaker than an eidolon and still somewhat squishy compared to a real fighter). Going towards that point, I made the Armorer a sort of "reflection tax" on purpose if you are going to have more than one melee fighter (otherwise he can be more or less replaced by some cheap gear as the game goes on). Lots of other stuff (like musician and casters and such) can be kept tactically far away from the action or be useful almost only out of combat (e.g. the spy and delver), while other reflections don't need weapons exactly (the bound Forest Priest, the bound Steed, and the bound Menagerie).
If an ancestor leaves something in a demesne and dies then the decedent would find it, but that would only be something for a GM to decide. The City in the Mist ability is essentially then only way to stop everything from reverting back to zero when the old prince dies and the new prince inherits the kingdom (as he essentially levels his heir to level 20 before he gives over his powers). This is essentially the "immortality" equivalent for this class.
The spell crafters can't cast any spells that are in their spellbooks directly. They can only make scrolls as per the "create scrolls" trait. If they make the most powerful scrolls they can then that means they make about two scrolls a day (about one of their most powerful spells and one of their second most powerful spells). They can caste spells for the prince in place of him, though.
A note on the extra damage not being nonlethal damage, reflection hit points, and power level:
The main balancing factor for most of the reflections is two things; first, I set their hit points such that one good hit will kill them. Besides Type 1 reflections, a full level spell (about 1d6 per caster level) is expected to outright kill an unbound reflection. For bound reflections, they take about two hits from full level spells to kill or one or two full attacks (depending on what hits) from an appropriately leveled melee-focused enemy monster. The math works out about right. Secondly, these reflections are still pretty good and I wanted them to be useable at will so I had to make the threat of their somewhat likely demise as a balancing factor. It is too easy to heal subdual damage so I shied away from that. I still wanted the death of a reflection to possibly
Yeah. Sorry about the copy/paste and grammar errors. I used the power level and mechanics of the summoner as a benchmark (though I sort of wanted the Prince to be more versatile than the summoner, but also be more risky). I know that there is a lot of text and rules here. I should read over everything again when I get the chance.
I really appreciate your input.
If anyone has alternative suggestions to balance reflections with things other than damage then I would like to hear it. (I have toyed with a couple resource pool ideas that maybe I could go back to; dead reflections subtract from this pool and when it gets to zero, that means no more reflections)
I would also like to hear about any alternatives to my current HP book keeping problem. I want this class to draw a lot of power from these other summoned reflections, but it seems like that necessitates lots of hit point pools.
You could have reflections share the princes hit point pool. When they take damage, he/she takes non lethal of the same amount.
That might lead to your character dropping if you get two reflections caught in an aoe or something, but it would eliminate the extra health pool issue. You would have to add class features that gave temporary hit points or DR against non lethal so that the class doesn't get nuked later on though. If the reflections are like spirits they could take half damage against energy attacks and non magical weapons, that would make the class more survivable.
Very imaginative class, I like the concept.
I still worry that may be trivial to heal and I did want the type 1s to be able to be a little "tankier" than other reflections. Maybe just throwing them DR is the solution. I must meditate on this.
Very clever concept. There is a lot to take in though. You might consider simplifying.
Healing is never trivial in combat really (there is always an action economy deficit), so I wouldn't worry about it too much. Healing works just as effectively on lethal damage, and non lethal will make for easy knock outs, so I wouldn't discount it overly.
@Trogdar
I suppose that is true to some extent. I am still meditating on it. I wish I had more time to tinker with this at the moment. Real life distracts me from my geekiness.
If I am going to replace Reflections' individual hit points: Right now, I am maybe thinking that most bound spirits should deal 1/2 the damage they take as lethal damage to the prince. Type 1s turn this damage into nonlethal damage. Meanwhile, bound spirits only convey 1/4 the damage they take to the prince. This will let the bound type 1s tank more effectively. Then I have to worry about what I can do with the steed and menagerie, though. I suppose I could just write them up like the rest of the reflections.
@Ciaran Barnes
I think I like my classes a little more complex than you (though I do really appreciate a lot of the streamlining you seem capable of), but do you have any suggestions? I would love to reduce this write-up by a few paragraphs. The hp component of this will just reduce book-keeping.
If I am going to replace Reflections' individual hit points: Right now, I am maybe thinking that most bound spirits should deal 1/2 the damage they take as lethal damage to the prince. Type 1s turn this damage into nonlethal damage. Meanwhile, bound spirits only convey 1/4 the damage they take to the prince. This will let the bound type 1s tank more effectively. Then I have to worry about what I can do with the steed and menagerie, though. I suppose I could just write them up like the rest of the reflections.
Consistency is important for play. If one deals damage to the prince then they should all do so. Otherwise you have to keep track of another damage total on top of the hit points for the reflections.
Hmm. Have you thought about treating the reflections like minions from 4th edition? They only have 1 point but you still have to hit them to kill them. If you did this you could change it up to where the prince could summon one reflection per round as a move action with perhaps no limit on the number of times he could summon. That way at the start of combat he's not at full power constantly, but instead ramps up as the battle goes on. If they ignore the reflections they start to hurt, and they eat up the enemies actions to get rid of them. Maybe he could have a line of spells that let him summon more per round that way he can get going faster, but he's eating up his spells per day to do so.
As far as the backlash goes maybe he takes a set amount of damage each time one is killed? Like he takes half his class levels (rounded up) in damage each time one is killed?
I also think the reflections in general are a bit too powerful. You might want to limit them a bit in what they can do and give them specific abilities. Like the mage can cast magic missle at will but not much else. He'd be a constant source of guaranteed low damage but with a low ac that could be defeated quickly.
I also think you should just ditch the armorer and have them all scale with level. Cut out the middle man.
Okay, the reflections I will have to think on longer. They're still pretty confusing to me. I think tackling Impossible Obedience will be easier. Its seems to be a pool of points that powers more than one ability. I think a new name could cover the various uses. I apologize in advance for the liberties I take with your creation.
Dominion: The inherent magic of his pact with other-worldly beings courses through the prince's veins imbues him with great influence over the minds and hearts of those who hear his words. Beginning at 2nd level, he gains a pool of points equal to 1/2 his level + his Charisma bonus that he can spend to exert this influence. This points in this pool replenish once per day after he has rested for 8 hours. As long as he has at least one point remaining in this pool, he adds half his level as a bonus to Diplomacy and Intimidate skill checks.
By spending a point from his dominion pool, a prince can do one of the following:
-As a swift action, he can add 1/2 his level + 2 as a bonus to a Charisma-based check he begins before the end of his turn, or he can gain add 1/2 his level as a bonus to attack and damage rolls with weapons until the end of his turn.
-As a standard action, he issues a command to an ally who can hear and see him, such as "Attack that orc" or "Move back to the door" that allows the ally the ability to make an attack or use a move action as an immediate action. The ally can take free actions he or she has the ability to take that are part of the actions, such as drawing ammunition or using the Quick Draw feat. The action granted must be used before the end of the prince's turn or it is lost.
Beginning at 4th level, he can spend a point from his dominion pool to use Unseen Servant or Charm Person as a spell-like ability.
Beginning at 8th level and every four level thereafter, casting Unseen Servant creates one additional servant. Also, he can spend a point from his dominion pool to cast Command as a spell-like ability.
Beginning at 12th level, he can spend two points from his dominion pool to use Greater Command as a spell-like ability.
Beginning at 16th level, he can spend three points from his dominion pool to use Plane Shift as a spell-like ability.
@ Gunsmith
Well, the idea with the reflections is to have sort of "fake party members" that can fill in the gaps in the party (especially those parties where no one wants to play rogue or a full caster). In the case of the spell crafters, I think that so much of the late game problem solving comes from having the right spells so the scroll thing is intended to give a party access to those spells, even if it is just in a very limited capacity (one or two weaker spells or one or two stronger spells for the bound reflections). The delver is there to solve the trap finding problem.
Frankly, I am much more worried about the type ones (the fighters) as they stand. I think that they maybe do too good a job of emulating a melee fighter in that they can just eat a lot of damage. At the same time: I sort of want the fight-y reflections to be competitive with the damage output of an animal companion or a top-tier (for the character's level) summoned monster. Perhaps I want too much.
I will also note that I did consider the minion-y rules for unbound spirits and then only bound spirits get a hp pool. Perhaps I will return to that model again. That sort of precludes the tanks, but perhaps if I changed the rule to allow for move action summons, it could still work. In particular: if my fight-y summons had the special rule that they cause no damage or only nonlethal damage upon being hit and destroyed, then they could still tank successfully.
Finding any of these arguments valid, Paladin?
@ Barnes
Well, this is certainly a lower power level from what it was before, but maybe that is for the best. I am more worried about this class being overpowered than underpowered at right this second. However, I wanted to give this class a lot of access to toys because I wanted it to compete with full casters. In particular, I liked the idea of unlimited unseen servant. It is such a weak spell, really, but I feel like it could lead to some super interesting problem solving if you could use it all the time. So I think I will definitely keep that.
Otherwise, I may go ahead and key more powers to use that "Dominion" resource pool as you renamed it. The command spells seem flavorful and relevant as well.
I still want to be able to give allies the ability to make a full attack or charge, though. It is hard to benefit martial allies in the same way one would benefit casters, otherwise. Maybe I should just opt for the charge. That would help get the fighters to the battle and thus be able to full attack next turn.
@ Gunsmith
Well, the idea with the reflections is to have sort of "fake party members" that can fill in the gaps in the party (especially those parties where no one wants to play rogue or a full caster). In the case of the spell crafters, I think that so much of the late game problem solving comes from having the right spells so the scroll thing is intended to give a party access to those spells, even if it is just in a very limited capacity (one or two weaker spells or one or two stronger spells for the bound reflections). The delver is there to solve the trap finding problem.Frankly, I am much more worried about the type ones (the fighters) as they stand. I think that they maybe do too good a job of emulating a melee fighter in that they can just eat a lot of damage. At the same time: I sort of want the fight-y reflections to be competitive with the damage output of an animal companion or a top-tier (for the character's level) summoned monster. Perhaps I want too much.
I will also note that I did consider the minion-y rules for unbound spirits and then only bound spirits get a hp pool. Perhaps I will return to that model again. That sort of precludes the tanks, but perhaps if I changed the rule to allow for move action summons, it could still work. In particular: if my fight-y summons had the special rule that they cause no damage or only nonlethal damage upon being hit and destroyed, then they could still tank successfully.
Finding any of these arguments valid, Paladin?
How about meeting in the middle? Say you summon the 'minion' reflections as a move action and they last a limited amount of time. They deal small amounts of damage, such as the mage one spamming magic missle at a lower caster level, or have limited, but meaningful, effects in combat. Then you pick one to be your 'bound' reflection. You either summon it with a full-round or upgrade a minion with standard, or perhaps it's just up all the time, and that one functions at a more powerful 'level'. Say you need a tank. You summon up a fighter reflection and bind him. Need some caster support? Bind that mage. It'll give tons of versatility, power, and keep you from being a one man army all the time.
As for backlash, perhaps only a bound reflection would cause it?
Add to or change it however you like. :)
My reason for removing "take a standard action" is the same as why is removed from the original 3rd edition Haste spell, before the 3.5 nerf. Not all standard actions are equal. And some might call a strong spell caster laying out two high level spells per turn overpowered.
Yes, the prince is surrendering his own standard to do so, but it is a possible abuse. Just my 2 cents.
How about meeting in the middle? Say you summon the 'minion' reflections as a move action and they last a limited amount of time. They deal small amounts of damage, such as the mage one spamming magic missle at a lower caster level, or have limited, but meaningful, effects in combat. Then you pick one to be your 'bound' reflection. You either summon it with a full-round or upgrade a minion with standard, or perhaps it's just up all the time, and that one functions at a more powerful...@ Gunsmith
Well, the idea with the reflections is to have sort of "fake party members" that can fill in the gaps in the party (especially those parties where no one wants to play rogue or a full caster). In the case of the spell crafters, I think that so much of the late game problem solving comes from having the right spells so the scroll thing is intended to give a party access to those spells, even if it is just in a very limited capacity (one or two weaker spells or one or two stronger spells for the bound reflections). The delver is there to solve the trap finding problem.Frankly, I am much more worried about the type ones (the fighters) as they stand. I think that they maybe do too good a job of emulating a melee fighter in that they can just eat a lot of damage. At the same time: I sort of want the fight-y reflections to be competitive with the damage output of an animal companion or a top-tier (for the character's level) summoned monster. Perhaps I want too much.
I will also note that I did consider the minion-y rules for unbound spirits and then only bound spirits get a hp pool. Perhaps I will return to that model again. That sort of precludes the tanks, but perhaps if I changed the rule to allow for move action summons, it could still work. In particular: if my fight-y summons had the special rule that they cause no damage or only nonlethal damage upon being hit and destroyed, then they could still tank successfully.
Finding any of these arguments valid, Paladin?
That does seem super cool, but I sort of want a very specific level of versatility here and I am really sort of married to a limited number of bound spirits, if I am going to be honest. I want this class to be able to pick up a lot of the useful out-of-combat abilities of other classes through the Bound Spirit mechanic (or rather, making the prince choose between additional options for in-combat power or additional out of combat utility), but I don't want the Prince to get the full out-of-combat utility of every spirit. I think I am going to take parts of your ideas in my next draft, though. Right now: I really like making the unbound summons much easier to kill (to reduce some of the hp book keeping), but also making them easier to summon and lowering the penalty for having an unbound summon die. I also like having bound spirits taking a full round to summon (since I am targeting Summon Monster as a kind of target power level for the combat focused bound spirits, but I am using penalty damage as a limiting factor rather than uses per day).
@Barnes
I want to at least give those melee characters the standard action charge. Maybe I can allow full attacks at level 12 or so though? Maybe for extra uses of the ability? It would be great if the prince--in its utilities as a support class--could do more to catch up martial allies to caster allies.
Add to or change it however you like. :)
My reason for removing "take a standard action" is the same as why is removed from the original 3rd edition Haste spell, before the 3.5 nerf. Not all standard actions are equal. And some might call a strong spell caster laying out two high level spells per turn overpowered.
Yes, the prince is surrendering his own standard to do so, but it is a possible abuse. Just my 2 cents.
Given that the Prince himself is designed to be useless, his giving up a standard is not a significant sacrifice.
This looks to me to be an even more painful version of the Summoner to GM.
You want to play a Prince, the Aristocrat can be geared to be as useless as you want.
It should be easier to GM for than a Summoner or a full-on god wizard, even in its current iteration. It does have a lot of rules, though. I will try to tighten it up in my second draft when I can get to it.
And I dislike the aristocrat for a lot of reasons.
1: its main attack thrust is just the cohort ability of the Leadership feat. I dislike cohorts. There is too much grey area. There is also no action economy; the cohort takes a full turn every round with no effort on the part of the aristocrat.
2: it is a weird prestige class.
3: A lot of its abilities (like its cash monies power) does not make a lot of sense to me, and are next to useless in a lot of types of games.
4: Other stuff that I don't feel like typing out.
Also, read my whole first post, man. I made this class for more reasons than you assume, clearly.