I need a quick answer. Do people generally not allow Rich Parents? It seems like it gives a pretty nutty benefit early on. I mean, it lets you get masterwork weapons at first level.As long as you remember that it's a ONE time boost, not an excuse to have bags of money drop on the players head when "he calls Dad".
Given the age of the thread i think it is safe to assume that KC is over his crisis;)
I have always had a house rule in my game that any trait that gives you extra cash is completely legit in my game, but cannot be retrained. You cannot even "give the money back" at high levels when 900 GP is irrelevant. These traits are not a skill you can let atrophy in favor of something else -- these are binary, on/off "do you have money or not" traits. If you do, then you do; that's your story and you can't alter your history. It's done.
So far, only one person has ever wanted to do it: me, when my friend GM'd and used my own house rules. I played a druid and I used almost all of the money for scrolls to turn myself into a low-level batman type. I could solve any problem that a 1st level spell could solve, plus a couple of level 2 spells for good measure. It didn't wreck the game, but it kept me voted as MVP for the first few games.
After that, I was totally fine to keep the trait on my character sheet and just ignore it. By the time I had fully used up all the things that 900 extra GP bought, I was level 4 and had so many other capabilities that I didn't need to replace it.
See, while 276 and 281 are both Social traits and thus can't be used together, and 276 and 716 would have the problem that the starting money increase is a trait bonus and thus might not stack, 281 and 716 would work well together.Technically 276 resets your starting wealth, 716 adds to it. Not the same thing.
There is also the problem of which trait takes effect first. If 716 comes before 276 then you actually lose wealth. For example if your starting wealth was 150 gold 716 would increase it to 1050 gold, and then 276 would reduce it to 900. If one of my players tried to take both this is how I would handle it.
As others have said it is kind of worthless after 2nd level. The only time it would be worth it would be if you for some reason are not able to purchase any equipment for a long time after the campaign starts. Then it may be necessary for some concepts. I played an archer in a game where we could not purchase anything until about 7th level. It really sucked not having proper gear. I was stuck with a bow with no STR bonus and studded leather armor. The campaign ended in a TPK just after we were able to purchase new equipment.
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Rich Parents really does nothing in a non-PFS party in the long run. While most groups split hard cash down the middle, found items typically run on a need/greed variable, and in some campaigns particular characters can end up well equipped while others lag behind. Rarely outside of PFS do characters have exactly equivalent item values.
Think about it, when your party finds the +1 sword, the first comment is usually "Who can use this" followed by "How can we swap items to make sure that everyone's optimized?"
DM: "...and a +1 longsword"
Seoni: "Ok,who wants the longsword?"
Kyra: "I'm not proficient with it"
Merisiel: "I could use it, but I won't use it often. Just be sure I get the first nice rapier we find."
*Seelah and Valeros look at each other*
Valeros: "Go ahead and take it, I already have a masterwork longsword."
Seelah: "Yeah, but I'm going to get Divine Bond next level. How about you take it and just give me your masterwork one instead?"
Outside of PFS, loot tends to be distributed pretty rapidly through the group.
Rich parents gives a PC an edge for a time, but it quickly disappears as wealth is distributed.
Also, even if a tiger or two would 'wreck' a campaign at for the early levels, it would seem to me that a party could pool their money and get at least one before they reached second level, so if this was such a strong idea, it would be being done all of the time, rich parents or not.
It's plenty powerful. I think people don't do this all the time because it's less fun than running a character. The tigers replace everyone. To me, it's a occasionally fun thing to try like an all wizard party.
We once had someone get DM permission to run an honest to god dire badger as a character, and the player tried hard to make it a character. It was a riot.
I once took Rich Parents + Dusk Agent for a character to start with 1800 gp. I then used the 10% discount to acquire a lot of onyx stone and spent the rest on spellcasting services and began the game as a Mummy.
Did your party immediately try to kill you for being evil and worth lots of xp?
Hark is right, a great use for the trait would be starting the game with a sizeable downtime business or businesses, which would continue to earn you money for the rest of your character's career.
You know, I'm not sure it says anything anywhere about retraining traits. I don't think you're supposed to retrain traits.
That's why you pick it up with the Additional Traits feat, and then retrain the feat.
Did your party immediately try to kill you for being evil and worth lots of xp?
I'm sure they tried. XD
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I need a quick answer. Do people generally not allow Rich Parents? It seems like it gives a pretty nutty benefit early on. I mean, it lets you get masterwork weapons at first level.
I never saw it banned in any of my games. Actually it is quite the opposite: every Gm and veteran gamer will tell a new player not to pick it because it is absolutely worthless after character creation.
I never saw it banned in any of my games. Actually it is quite the opposite: every Gm and veteran gamer will tell a new player not to pick it because it is absolutely worthless after character creation.
Depends entirely on the investment. :P
Masterwork weapons and superior armor do tend to lose their luster, but a pair of powerful guard animals or the start of a business empire can have a much longer lasting effect on the character and campaign.
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Masterwork weapons and superior armor due tend to lose their luster, but a pair of powerful guard animals or the start of a business empire can have a much longer lasting effect on the character and campaign.
True - but you could get those by level 2 just as easily as the armor/weapon.
True - but you could get those by level 2 just as easily as the armor/weapon.
Masterwork weapons and superior armor due tend to lose their luster, but a pair of powerful guard animals or the start of a business empire can have a much longer lasting effect on the character and campaign.
A fair point I suppose.
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If you as a GM feel that way, then ELIMINATE THE TRAIT. If you feel like tossing extra gold at your players, keep the trait eliminated and simply do so.To be fair probably not only allow it but allow people who take it to pick up a third trait a bit after it stops meaning anything, maybe level 4.They literally got their money's worth of the trait at level 1. If you'e going to give them another trait for free then EVERYONE in your group should be taking Rich Parents.Except it's not worth a trait. It's maybe worth a feat at level 1, a trait at level 2, and negligible at level 3 because it's a lump sum of money not a long term income that scales to remain meaningful. So you get something better than other traits for one level, borderline useful for another level, and pointless for one level. It averages out and then at level 4 you get an actual trait.
It's the trait most likely to be used for something that impacts roleplay (having an heirloom that doesn't get outgrown because it's eligible to be enchanted) so making it not be hopelessly worse than every other trait in the game is a good thing.
Wouldn't be the first time I adjusted starting wealth for campaign specific reasons. In one campaign the party more or less started with a few thousand gold pieces worth of stuff. Of course that campaign opened with them escorting a caravan through the wilderness, an avalanche, and them scavenging useful supplies from the now destroyed caravan to try to make their way back to civilization with. By the time they got back to safety, they were around proper WBL. :P
I once took Rich Parents + Dusk Agent for a character to start with 1800 gp. I then used the 10% discount to acquire a lot of onyx stone and spent the rest on spellcasting services and began the game as a Mummy.
EDIT: Best. First. Level. Ever.
If i were to play with your group i would take the trait and spend 535 gp on rats and kill them all. Instant level 20 on slow progression;)
Best. First. Session. Ever.
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Sure, as long as they make a thematically apropriate character. If they are just aiming to min-max and munchkin their level one character than no.I don't like the way you lump these two together.
Furthermore a thematically appropriate character can be totally min-maxed to the hilt.
Just min-maxing is fine, so long as it's got a good reason behind it. If they're looking to build a character and only pick traits that give them benefits even if those traits contradict one another. like taking rich parents and nightstall orphan, or monastic (which states that you embrace an esthetic lifestyle)
I'm sorry if I offended you. I don't mean that all min-maxeres are munchkins. But munchkins often do min-max with no attention paid to the reasons for the abilities taken.
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I once took Rich Parents + Dusk Agent for a character to start with 1800 gp. I then used the 10% discount to acquire a lot of onyx stone and spent the rest on spellcasting services and began the game as a Mummy.
EDIT: Best. First. Level. Ever.
If i were to play with your group i would take the trait and spend 535 gp on rats and kill them all. Instant level 20 on slow progression;)
Best. First. Session. Ever.
Don't forget to ask the GM with a straight face and slightly injured tone of voice if they are going to roughly follow WBL like you assumed they would because most GMs usually do.
It's not gold that breaks games, it's things purchased with gold.
Tigers-bad
Perfume and Noble dress, fancy emerald earrings-good
Whether they start with it, or pick it up a level later, the players who want to be powerful will spend their gold being powerful.
I personally see no harm in the trait, but would disallow certain purchases (like attack animals beyond CR1 perhaps?).
Indeed, a pack of attack dogs might be a better fit for a level 1 party. "Let loose the hounds!"
I've done this. It was awesome.
Perhaps limit the number of animals as well as the type. :D
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Who let the dogs out?
Was he afraid of snakes?badger badger badger badger..
No, but he was significantly smarter than the very dumb dwarf barbarian. Oh the adventures those two had...falling, taking falling damage, falling some more...
It was the ToEE revisit around level 4, when you're above that giant crystal. Hehehe...good times.
People have been saying things like "you can't retrain your history" but that isn't mechanically what you're doing. Your character has a backstory and his history will always be with him, and even the memories of that history probably will (unless he forgets). Retraining means not getting the effects of that history anymore.
For example the drawback "naive" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/drawbacks/naive) could be overcome representing character growth. He's seen the world and changed his views. For example by taking the extra traits feat and using one to cancel out this "minustrait" - at a place where it would make appropriate sense in the game. Or if he also had the "rich parents" trait he could send money (or better: an item of value) back home with a letter saying how he's grown up now and left the rich person's life behind and has slept on the floors of caves and has smelled the stink of rotting flesh and worse - how he's greatful for everything they have given him, and knows he can never truly repay them but wants to be financially independent. xoxo --- I'd think that was cool if someone tried to do that in a game I ran. I'd allow it, then again, I'm a sucker for story.
But yes, I do think he'd have to pay back the gold equivalent somehow. Maybe have a parent die and he spends that much on a funeral? A lot of interesting options for someone who wants to "retrain how their history affects them" :P
I don't think "overpowered at first level, worthless at second and beyond" is a good way of balancing a trait.
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I once took Rich Parents + Dusk Agent for a character to start with 1800 gp. I then used the 10% discount to acquire a lot of onyx stone and spent the rest on spellcasting services and began the game as a Mummy.
EDIT: Best. First. Level. Ever.
If i were to play with your group i would take the trait and spend 535 gp on rats and kill them all. Instant level 20 on slow progression;)
Best. First. Session. Ever.
Wouldn't that kind of run into trouble at 6th level when the rats stopped giving you XP points?
EDIT: Also, who the heck statted rats? They're CR 1/4? Really? A rat has more HP than a commoner?
Humorously being a mummy put me at "5th level" so it seems pretty similar, though your method would be way better for a spellcasting class (since who wants to eat -5 caster levels?). :D
It's worth mentioning the GM thought the idea was funny and OK'd it before I tried it. :)
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I like the trait Ustalavic Noble better, as you get an extra 100 gp starting gold. You also get +1 trait bonus on Diplomacy and Knowledge (nobility) checks.
I once took Rich Parents + Dusk Agent for a character to start with 1800 gp. I then used the 10% discount to acquire a lot of onyx stone and spent the rest on spellcasting services and began the game as a Mummy.
EDIT: Best. First. Level. Ever.
If i were to play with your group i would take the trait and spend 535 gp on rats and kill them all. Instant level 20 on slow progression;)
Best. First. Session. Ever.Wouldn't that kind of run into trouble at 6th level when the rats stopped giving you XP points?
EDIT: Also, who the heck statted rats? They're CR 1/4? Really? A rat has more HP than a commoner?
Humorously being a mummy put me at "5th level" so it seems pretty similar, though your method would be way better for a spellcasting class (since who wants to eat -5 caster levels?). :D
It's worth mentioning the GM thought the idea was funny and OK'd it before I tried it. :)
Why would rats stop giving Xp at level 6 they give a amazing 100 pr rat or 10000 pr gp. It was in D&D 3 and 3.5 that gp was changing with character level.
And of cause your gp would need to approve it and that is why my trick Will never happen.Edit: and yes rats seem to be stattet for the familiar role and seem a bit in the High end.
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I once took Rich Parents + Dusk Agent for a character to start with 1800 gp. I then used the 10% discount to acquire a lot of onyx stone and spent the rest on spellcasting services and began the game as a Mummy.
EDIT: Best. First. Level. Ever.
If i were to play with your group i would take the trait and spend 535 gp on rats and kill them all. Instant level 20 on slow progression;)
Best. First. Session. Ever.Wouldn't that kind of run into trouble at 6th level when the rats stopped giving you XP points?
EDIT: Also, who the heck statted rats? They're CR 1/4? Really? A rat has more HP than a commoner?
Humorously being a mummy put me at "5th level" so it seems pretty similar, though your method would be way better for a spellcasting class (since who wants to eat -5 caster levels?). :D
It's worth mentioning the GM thought the idea was funny and OK'd it before I tried it. :)
Why would rats stop giving Xp at level 6 they give a amazing 100 pr rat or 10000 pr gp. It was in D&D 3 and 3.5 that gp was changing with character level.
And of cause your gp would need to approve it and that is why my trick Will never happen.
Edit: and yes rats seem to be stattet for the familiar role and seem a bit in the High end.
Because when something is -10 CRs below your APL they stop granting XP. It's in the core rulebook where it explains XP. So you'd...
Kill rats, reach level 2.
Kill rats, reach level 3.
Kill rats, reach level 4.
Kill rats, reach level 5.
Kill rats, reach level 6.
CR 1/4 is 6-10, rats give no more XP for you.
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Rich Parents seems like a good trait for the new Vigilante class.
I see what you did there. :3
Hmm you should never bother is not a har rule but i see your point. But what if they after level 6 come in really great numbers? 32 of them is a CR encounter after all.
Rich Parents seems like a good trait for the new Vigilante class.
I actually don't think Rich Parents would work at all, for one simple reason.
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Hmm you should never bother is not a har rule but i see your point. But what if they after level 6 come in really great numbers? 32 of them is a CR encounter after all.
I suppose at that point it's GM's discretion. I'd probably only award the XP if they were actively doing something to provide a challenge.
For example, I would probably include the XP of some CR 1/4 kobolds in an encounter where preventing the kobolds from pulling levers and such to mess with the party was a thing, or if they were running around actively aiding their higher CR brethren (aid anothers, body blocking, etc). Truthfully, because kobolds are NPC classed they can pull above their weight class pretty strongly (they are definitely the strongest of the CR 1/4 critters) but I'm not sure I'd award XP for just catching a bunch of hapless kobolds in a room and mashing them into paste.
Which is kind of what I think is happening with the rats, except more unfair. Maybe if they were rats trained for combat who were somehow supporting their rat-king overlord. Mmmm, fun times could be had with that. :3
That said, even if the GM was imposing a -1 CR for the "encounter" for the extreme disadvantage of the rats, getting to level 5 for 500-ish gold is cheapsauce and once you're 5th level, you should quickly be able to catch back up to your WBL since if you pick your poison Gygaxian-style, you can probably use your party's 5th level durability + spells to go wreck some CR 1-3 things en mass and gear up. :P
Just found this thread, my 2 cp is that Rich parents and similar traits can make some builds actually viable for 1st level, since there are some that require a few levels to "Come online"
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Just found this thread, my 2 cp is that Rich parents and similar traits can make some builds actually viable for 1st level, since there are some that require a few levels to "Come online"
Virtually every build that requires a few levels to come online takes that long because it either:
a)requires a number of feats or class abilities and it is not possible for the build to function well at it's intended task before those feats/class abilities are acquired.b)Requires magic items, which are FAR more expensive than the piddly amount rich parents gives you.
It is almost a necessity for classes like the Cavalier who have to buy starting equipment for both them and their horse.
What is a Cavalier equipping their horse with?
Leather Barding isn't that expensive. The Cavalier could spend more for better armor, but it isn't really necessary. Kikko barding for a horse is only 120gp anyway and gives +5AC - the Cavalier can afford to deck their horse out in that and still come along in studded leather with a lance.
A masterwork saddle is by no means a necessity.
What else would the Cavalier get for their mount with another 700gp.
Hmm you should never bother is not a har rule but i see your point. But what if they after level 6 come in really great numbers? 32 of them is a CR encounter after all.I suppose at that point it's GM's discretion. I'd probably only award the XP if they were actively doing something to provide a challenge.
For example, I would probably include the XP of some CR 1/4 kobolds in an encounter where preventing the kobolds from pulling levers and such to mess with the party was a thing, or if they were running around actively aiding their higher CR brethren (aid anothers, body blocking, etc). Truthfully, because kobolds are NPC classed they can pull above their weight class pretty strongly (they are definitely the strongest of the CR 1/4 critters) but I'm not sure I'd award XP for just catching a bunch of hapless kobolds in a room and mashing them into paste.
Which is kind of what I think is happening with the rats, except more unfair. Maybe if they were rats trained for combat who were somehow supporting their rat-king overlord. Mmmm, fun times could be had with that. :3
That said, even if the GM was imposing a -1 CR for the "encounter" for the extreme disadvantage of the rats, getting to level 5 for 500-ish gold is cheapsauce and once you're 5th level, you should quickly be able to catch back up to your WBL since if you pick your poison Gygaxian-style, you can probably use your party's 5th level durability + spells to go wreck some CR 1-3 things en mass and gear up. :P
If you just go with your first ruling it only cost 3 gold and 5 silver to get to level 6. I am not sure i know any GMs that would allow that:)
Edit: a spinosaurus AC with spirits gift Can handle that while the pc keep his distance.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmm you should never bother is not a har rule but i see your point. But what if they after level 6 come in really great numbers? 32 of them is a CR encounter after all.I suppose at that point it's GM's discretion. I'd probably only award the XP if they were actively doing something to provide a challenge.
For example, I would probably include the XP of some CR 1/4 kobolds in an encounter where preventing the kobolds from pulling levers and such to mess with the party was a thing, or if they were running around actively aiding their higher CR brethren (aid anothers, body blocking, etc). Truthfully, because kobolds are NPC classed they can pull above their weight class pretty strongly (they are definitely the strongest of the CR 1/4 critters) but I'm not sure I'd award XP for just catching a bunch of hapless kobolds in a room and mashing them into paste.
Which is kind of what I think is happening with the rats, except more unfair. Maybe if they were rats trained for combat who were somehow supporting their rat-king overlord. Mmmm, fun times could be had with that. :3
That said, even if the GM was imposing a -1 CR for the "encounter" for the extreme disadvantage of the rats, getting to level 5 for 500-ish gold is cheapsauce and once you're 5th level, you should quickly be able to catch back up to your WBL since if you pick your poison Gygaxian-style, you can probably use your party's 5th level durability + spells to go wreck some CR 1-3 things en mass and gear up. :P
If you just go with your first ruling it only cost 3 gold and 5 silver to get to level 6. I am not sure i know any GMs that would allow that:)
Edit: a spinosaurus AC with spirits gift Can handle that while the pc keep his distance.
This is one of the many reasons milestone based leveling>>>XP.
"Oh, you killed a bunch of rats? Congratulations, now take your level 1 ass to the dungeon so you can start achieving things. Hope you didn't need the 3.5gp that cost you for anything."
Given some of the traits available, I can see some argument here. 'Oh, I have 900 gold at first level. While the barbarian decided to get UMD as a class skill and the wizard will always have +1 initiative.'
Honestly, I wouldn't allow Rich Parents to be picked up from the Additional Traits feat. Unless you had a REALLY good reason. One that amused me sufficiently, anyway.
As a GM, remember, 'It's just WRONG' can be a valid excuse. Which is why I'm not pressuring mine to let me build that +1 flaming frost greataxe yet.