Does enlarge affect AoO?


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

When you enlarge person someone, they get a -2 penalty to dexterity. now, in ability penalties, it states they work like ability damage, and it clearly lists out the things affected by this. It does NOT list AoOs. I'm just verifying here, that you would not lose extra AoOs from say combat reflexes by growing large, correct?

Sczarni

If you have combat reflexes, and you lose dexterity for any reason, that's one less AoO you get to make.

Dark Archive

Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
If you have combat reflexes, and you lose dexterity for any reason, that's one less AoO you get to make.

Any rules to back that up?

Ability Drain would certainly reduce your AoO via Combat Refelexes as it states it reduces the actual stat, Ability Damage lists the things you lose due to it and notes very specifically that it does *NOT* change the actual stat. On those grounds I'm relatively sure that you do not in any way lose AoO from Enlarging as your Dexterity stat has not changed.


Pathfinders rules for ability damage is one of the weak points of the system. In an attempt to simplifying somthing they made a clumsy lump on the rules.
If it is not on the list then you dont loose it by RAW.


Suthainn is correct. Unless it's in the list of things that ability damage modifies, your feat and class bonuses and such from your base ability score bonus do not change. So, while your AC, CMD, and initiative would drop by 1 because of enlarge, your # of AOs would not be reduced, nor would you suddenly be unable to use Two Weapon Fighting if you normally had a Dex of 16.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
nor would you suddenly be unable to use Two Weapon Fighting if you normally had a Dex of 16.

Yes.

Cerberus Seven wrote:
Unless it's in the list of things that ability damage modifies, your feat and class bonuses and such from your base ability score bonus do not change. So, while your AC, CMD, and initiative would drop by 1 because of enlarge, your # of AOs would not be reduced,

No.

You do not lower the ability score itself for damage/penalty, so prerequisites are still met. You *do* lower the modifier, for all the things that affects. For Strength, you lose damage, and you can lose 1.5*damage if you're two-handing. For Dex, you do lose AoOs from Combat Reflexes: the feat gives you Dexterity modifier more AoOs per round - your modifier has changed.

Things that you've 'earned', or that refresh at a certain time, like spells and # of channels are not affected, but the DCs of those are (which is listed I believe).

It's really pretty simple. Just adjust things that happen after the penalty is applied with the new modifier.


RAW says:
"Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense."

It doesn't say 'everything affected by the modifer'. So taking RAW literally, dex damage does not affect AoOs from Combat Reflexes.


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Matthew Downie wrote:

RAW says:

"Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense."

It doesn't say 'everything affected by the modifer'. So taking RAW literally, dex damage does not affect AoOs from Combat Reflexes.

Hmm... by that very same virtue, you'd argue that Dex damage does not affect your attacks when using Weapon Finesse...

Doesn't appear very convincing to me.


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It reduces the number of AoOs you can make, as per the FAQ on ability score increases (which obviously should work the same way for penalties):

FAQ wrote:

Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.

For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.

Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.

A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.

Bolding and cursive in the answer are mine.

Sczarni

Matthew Downie wrote:

RAW says:

"Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense."

It doesn't say 'everything affected by the modifer'. So taking RAW literally, dex damage does not affect AoOs from Combat Reflexes.

Those are general rules, yes.

The specific rules come with Combat Reflexes.
"You can make additional attacks of opportunity.
Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity per round equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can't make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
" Here

If for some reason your Dex modifier changes on the battlefield, then it would in-turn change how many AoOs you can make using Combat Reflexes.

It constantly applies. If my Dex mod is 4, I can make 5 total AoOs per round. If someone detriments my Dex mod in specific somehow(let's say I took 2 Dex damage from ability drain), then my temporary mod would be 3. This would leave me at 4 total AoOs per round until I fixed my ability drain/damage(I think you can sleep it off, right?). If it changes your Dex mod for any reason, it would then change how many AoO's you can make, based off of the Combat Reflexes feat that is always in effect.

When you enlarge, aside from the known obvious gains, you take a temporary detriment "a –2 size penalty to Dexterity". Yes, it's a penalty, but does it say it's to skill checks or anything else in specific? No, it doesn't. That means it's strictly a detriment to Dexterity. Anything that is normally effected by your Dexterity mod, is now effected equally by whatever amount of change. If you were Finessing it, you'd now take a -1 to attack, -1 to Dex based skill checks, -1 to reflex, -1 to ac/touch, and -1 to cmd, and probably some other Dex related things I'm missing -> all due to -2 Dex.

It is classified as a Size Penalty, so that it cannot stack with other size penalties. I'm really not sure how you would grasp a penalty to Dexterity, as a penalty to everything else but Dexterity.

There are the rules you asked for, and a pretty simple and logical explanation behind it.

Are's FAQ quote works perfectly with this, and makes more sense of it.

Furthermore:
"For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability." Here

It all seems fairly evident to me; and, bottom-line, to take the RAW without using at least a little common sense, wouldn't get you far in practicality in front of the DM.

If someone can shed more light, one way or another, that'd be grand.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Your verbiage is a little misleading. YOu talk about dex damage from ability drain. dex damage and dex drain are two very different things. Just wanted to ask for clarification on that. What you're referring to above is dex damage, not drain, was that your intention?

As for your reasons, they are very logical yes. However, it does state that abilities and feats that are based on statistics are not affected by temporary ability gain and loss. memorizing more spells for example, or gaining additional uses of lay on hands. You cannot gain more lay on hands from an eagle's splendor spell, since it is a temporary ability modifier. So, does combat reflexes and its' AoO fall under that category, or under the category for attack rolls and saves? Since temp modifiers (positive or negative) affect some, but not others. Just food for thought.

Liberty's Edge

Suthainn wrote:
Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
If you have combat reflexes, and you lose dexterity for any reason, that's one less AoO you get to make.

Any rules to back that up?

Ability Drain would certainly reduce your AoO via Combat Refelexes as it states it reduces the actual stat, Ability Damage lists the things you lose due to it and notes very specifically that it does *NOT* change the actual stat. On those grounds I'm relatively sure that you do not in any way lose AoO from Enlarging as your Dexterity stat has not changed.

FAQ wrote:

Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.

The list of what is affected by ability increases is not exhaustive. I think that, similarly e for the same reasons, the list of what is affected by ability damage is not is exhaustive.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Suthainn wrote:
Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
If you have combat reflexes, and you lose dexterity for any reason, that's one less AoO you get to make.
Any rules to back that up?

Yes, you have less effective DEX so less AoO.

People have used the enumerated list at the end of the book as a "only affects these things" list when it is more like a "affects these things for example" list.


Ability penalties work entirely differently than temporary ability bonuses. Bonuses, temporary or permanent, actually change the ability score, penalties do not. There's no reason a FAQ for one should apply to the other.

If the list for ability penalties is not exhaustive, then what do penalties affect? Everything? Do you have to recalculate skill points after taking ability damage?

Sczarni

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Xavier319 wrote:

Your verbiage is a little misleading. YOu talk about dex damage from ability drain. dex damage and dex drain are two very different things. Just wanted to ask for clarification on that. What you're referring to above is dex damage, not drain, was that your intention?

As for your reasons, they are very logical yes. However, it does state that abilities and feats that are based on statistics are not affected by temporary ability gain and loss. memorizing more spells for example, or gaining additional uses of lay on hands. You cannot gain more lay on hands from an eagle's splendor spell, since it is a temporary ability modifier. So, does combat reflexes and its' AoO fall under that category, or under the category for attack rolls and saves? Since temp modifiers (positive or negative) affect some, but not others. Just food for thought.

I guess I'll quote the whole segment, as you decided not to click on the link I provided or didn't read it thoroughly.

"Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.

Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.

Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.

Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.

Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.

Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.

Wisdom: Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.

Charisma: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.

Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration."

The bold parts, being the most relevant. It seems pretty clear to me. The only difference between Damage and Drain, is that one generally lasts longer than the other, and they are "cured" differently.

For example(no spells in this example, but you get the idea):
Ability Damage and Drain (Ex or Su) Some attacks or special abilities cause ability damage or drain, reducing the designated ability score by the listed amount. Ability damage can be healed naturally. Ability drain is permanent and can only be restored through magic.

Can anyone please prove otherwise? Or for that matter any side of the spectrum? I'm interested to see what everyone else's input would be.


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
The bold parts, being the most relevant. It seems pretty clear to me. The only difference between Damage and Drain, is that one generally lasts longer than the other, and they are "cured" differently.

Not at all. Review the bold parts again.

Damage applies a -1 penalty for every two points. Drain modifies all the relevant stats.

Damage only gives a numeric penalty, so it doesn't really have any effect of statistics that aren't checks of some kind. A -1 penalty to Combat Reflexes doesn't really do anything.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes. drain immediately modifies the stat, and everything associated with it. Penalties only modify certain things, and after 24 hours become permanent modifiers (such as when you go up an age cat and gain a penalty to your physical stats for old age, or for a curse). so for the first 24 hours of ht curse, it counts as a temporary ability penalty, changing certain things. if it was.. say.. con DRAIN, then it actually changes your con score and you must now go back and alter your stats accordingly until the drain is restored. they work differently. Hence my polite request for clarification.

another example of a difference is if you have a 16 con, and you take a point of ability damage, nothing happens. you have to take 2 points of damage for it to actually reduce anything. but if you take one point of ability drain, it immediately changes your con to 15, and you have to re-calculate hit points. same works for bonuses. wear a headband of intellect, and you do not get the bonus spells until 24 hours have passed, and it becomes a 'permanent bonus'.

I digress, I'm getting slightly off base here. My point is, the list they give for what penalties affect, if not exhausted, then what DO they apply to? As Quantum Steve stated, where do you stop at that point? They obviously intended for penalties to impact a limited series of statistics, and if they did not intend for the impact to be limited to a very specific area, why write out a list? If they had intended for it to be "derived statistics SUCH AS or FOR EXAMPLE" they would have worded it like that. But they did not, they supplied a concise list.

Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense. A character with a Dexterity score of 0 is incapable of moving and is effectively immobile (but not unconscious).

That is the list. They leave little room for adding or taking things away. Now, this is RAW. RAI? I don't claim to know what was intended. I was asking from a specifically RAW standpoint.


Xavier, I agree with you. What the Devs should have said was that ability damage affects your ability modifier and not your ability score. That would have been clear, concise, logical and all inclusive. However, they made a list which naturally leads to something being left out.

As you have point out, they left out AoO and thus by RAW it is left out.


I think RAI can be determined from the FAQ:
"The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score."

Attack gets calculated every time because you doll a D20. You are used to calculating it.

"Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense."

These have calculation all the time:
Skill checks? Calculate with a D20.
Ranged Attack? Calculate with a D20.
Initiative? Calculate with a D20.
Reflex Save? Calculate with a D20.

These don't:
Armor Class? Usually constant.
CMB (if tiny)? Usually constant.
CMD? Usually constant.

The latter are all listed on your character sheet directly, and have almost zero effect on anything else, and so a simple pencil mark on your sheet is easy to keep track of.

Things like feat prerequisites and bonuses based on dex are a lot harder to spot. They are not listed directly on your sheet. Therefore, I fall in the camp of a penalty not affecting # of AoOs.

On Weapon Finesse, I do think it should be affected. Likewise, a bonus to strength states "Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength).", which by RAW adds to finessed weapons, but probably should not.

/cevah


Quantum Steve wrote:
Ability penalties work entirely differently than temporary ability bonuses. Bonuses, temporary or permanent, actually change the ability score, penalties do not. There's no reason a FAQ for one should apply to the other.

The reason is that the point of the FAQ is to clarify that the list isn't exhaustive, but rather a "these are the most common such statistics", and the list is virtually the exact same for bonuses and damage/penalties.

Silver Crusade

Of course increasing size, and thus losing 2 points of DEX, decreases the number of AoOs one gets from Combat Reflexes. Why are people even arguing about this?


Quote:
Why are people even arguing about this?

Because by a literal reading of the rules printed in the core rulebook, ability score damage doesn't change your ability modifiers and only applies penalties to specific list of checks and numbers. Because "number of attacks of opportunity with combat reflexes" isn't on that list, there's an argument to be made that it is not affected. It's a bit of a hyper-literal interpretation, but that's what got published.

With the FAQ, there should no longer be any argument. It has been clarified that the list is not meant to be exhaustive, and ability damage effectively reduces your ability modifier for all intents and purposes.

Dark Archive

But would that also mean that, for example, Intelligence ability damage would reduce the number of extra languages known by a character since this is specifically derived from your Intelligence ability modifier? I think the situation isn't nearly as cut and dried as it might seem.

Nevertheless, given the light the FAQ sheds on things I'm inclined to rethink it and say that RAI it probably is intended that you reduce the number of AoO you gain via Combat Reflexes when you take Dexterity ability damage, though I'm far from certain and RAW it's still up in the air and you'll likely experience table variation.


Quote:
Intelligence ability damage would reduce the number of extra languages known by a character since this is specifically derived from your Intelligence ability modifier?

Yup, just like after putting on a headband of intelligence you wake up the next morning knowing a new language. This particular example is less an issue with ability score damage and more an issue with intelligence being a little bit weird when it fluctuates.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So you're saying that a temporary ability bonus to int or cha would not give you bonus languages/spells, or lay on hands uses respectively, but a temporary penalty to those states will remove those from you? that seems.. inconsistent.


No, he's confusing permanent bonuses.

Intelligence damage will not affect your languages because you do not check your Int modifier when you speak a language. It's already been learned, and the penalty isn't permanent. Lay on Hands and spells have already been 'received' for the day.

You don't "earn" your # of AoOs in the morning - you can perform a certain number each round, based on your Dex bonus. If that bonus changes, so does the number of AoOs.


FAQ:
"The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score."

To me, the list is what is simple to deal with, i.e. what is printed on your character sheet. Do you put # of AoOs allowed on your sheet? Then it gets changed. If you don't, then it doesn't. Remember, you are not supposed to rebuild your character just to accommodate a temp change.

/cevah


Magda Luckbender wrote:
Of course increasing size, and thus losing 2 points of DEX, decreases the number of AoOs one gets from Combat Reflexes. Why are people even arguing about this?

There are two different rules interacting here, which usually gets confusing.

1) Does the size penalty from Enlarge Person operate like ability damage (which does not alter your base stat) or like ability drain (which does alter your base stat)?
Kazumetsa Raijin found the answer to this one, I think: "Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage..." (Enlarge Person is tricky because it specifically causes a size penalty, but I think it's still clear that it is a "spell or ability" that causes you to take a temporary ability penalty.)

2) Is the number of additional AoOs from Combat Reflexes based on your current Dex modifier or the modifier calculated from your base Dex statistic?
I agree with you that it's pretty clear: the additional AoOs are calculated off your current modifier, so any temporary ability score adjustments would apply. So yes, Enlarge Person would subtract 1 from your AoOs if you have Combat Reflexes; likewise, a potion of Cat's Grace would add 2 to your AoOs. However, if a GM rules that Cat's Grace doesn't give you 2 more AoOs, then by extension, Enlarge Person doesn't cost you 1. That depends on how the GM reads Combat Reflexes.

In summary:
Yes, you are absolutely correct. But this is why people are still arguing about Enlarge Person and Dex penalties.

Side note:
If you have a feat with a minimum Dex requirement, it is really clear that the Dex penalty from Enlarge Person would not cause you to lose the feat. So for, instance, if you have Dodge (Pre-req: Dex 13) and have a 14 Dex, you can still use Dodge after you take an Enlarge Person potion and the penalty temporarily lowers your Dex to 12. (This situation doesn't apply to Combat Reflexes, because Combat Reflexes doesn't require a minimum Dex score.)


Suthainn wrote:
Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
If you have combat reflexes, and you lose dexterity for any reason, that's one less AoO you get to make.

Any rules to back that up?

Ability Drain would certainly reduce your AoO via Combat Refelexes as it states it reduces the actual stat, Ability Damage lists the things you lose due to it and notes very specifically that it does *NOT* change the actual stat. On those grounds I'm relatively sure that you do not in any way lose AoO from Enlarging as your Dexterity stat has not changed.

Temporary Ability Score Increases vs. Permanent Ability Score Increases: Why do temporary bonuses only apply to some things?

Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do. The section in the glossary was very tight on space and it was not possible to list every single ability score-related game effect that an ability score bones would affect.

The purpose of the temporary ability score ruling is to make it so you don't have to rebuild your character every time you get a bull's strength or similar spell; it just summarizes the most common game effects relative to that ability score.

For example, most of the time when you get bull's strength, you're using it for combat, so the glossary mentions Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, Strength-based weapon damage rolls, CMB, and CMD. It doesn't call out melee attack rolls that use Dex instead of Str (such as when using Weapon Finesse) or situations where your applied Str bonus should be halved or multiplied (such as whith off-hand or two-handed weapons). You're usually not using the spell for a 1 min./level increase in your carrying capacity, so that isn't mentioned there, but the bonus should still apply to that, as well as to Strength checks to break down doors.

Think of it in the same way that a simple template has "quick rules" and "rebuild rules;" they're supposed to create monsters which are roughly equivalent in terms of stats, but the quick rules are a short cut that misses some details compared to using the rebuild rules. Likewise, the temporary ability score rule is intended as a short cut to speed up gameplay, not as the most precise way of applying the bonus.

A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does.

Linky

Sczarni

Gwen Smith wrote:
Magda Luckbender wrote:
Of course increasing size, and thus losing 2 points of DEX, decreases the number of AoOs one gets from Combat Reflexes. Why are people even arguing about this?

There are two different rules interacting here, which usually gets confusing.

1) Does the size penalty from Enlarge Person operate like ability damage (which does not alter your base stat) or like ability drain (which does alter your base stat)?
Kazumetsa Raijin found the answer to this one, I think: "Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage..." (Enlarge Person is tricky because it specifically causes a size penalty, but I think it's still clear that it is a "spell or ability" that causes you to take a temporary ability penalty.)

2) Is the number of additional AoOs from Combat Reflexes based on your current Dex modifier or the modifier calculated from your base Dex statistic?
I agree with you that it's pretty clear: the additional AoOs are calculated off your current modifier, so any temporary ability score adjustments would apply. So yes, Enlarge Person would subtract 1 from your AoOs if you have Combat Reflexes; likewise, a potion of Cat's Grace would add 2 to your AoOs. However, if a GM rules that Cat's Grace doesn't give you 2 more AoOs, then by extension, Enlarge Person doesn't cost you 1. That depends on how the GM reads Combat Reflexes.

In summary:
Yes, you are absolutely correct. But this is why people are still arguing about Enlarge Person and Dex penalties.

Side note:
If you have a feat with a minimum Dex requirement, it is really clear that the Dex penalty from Enlarge Person would not cause you to lose the feat. So for, instance, if you have Dodge (Pre-req: Dex 13) and have a 14 Dex, you can still use Dodge after you take an Enlarge Person potion and the penalty temporarily lowers your Dex to 12. (This situation doesn't apply to Combat Reflexes, because Combat...

Well I'm glad someone understands what I'm saying... with my awful walls of text +7.

I believe people still argue about it, due to a quiet motive of really wanting it in their favor, not keeping in mind that this game is a believable fantasy and should be treated as such, and also not remembering to actually put forth at least a little bit of common sense into understanding them as well. The deveopers themselves, have said that it is a believable fantasy and common sense is needed.

I see a lot of players only reading the words and paragraphs for their exact literal meaning - which just turns it into a word twisting game of no end. If you took a suggestion like this to a GM, they would probably metaphorically or literally slap you in the face with it. Sure if you want to avoid this penalty, go for it. However, that would make all of the good bonuses work against you. No matter how you swing it, it's still a double-edged sword. Also, if that's all a combat action performed, was a check penalty, then that is an Awful combat action. I'd hate to see a Ghast roaming around hitting people with their Str reducing natural attack, and it only expecting you to trip to death, or sputter a language so horribly they choked on their tongue.

I do understand that some of us argue strictly over the combination of wording, and that's perfectly fine.

What I don't understand, is when people argue over the incredibly obvious meaning and functionality of the subject.

When there is a seriously thin grey line, I can understand both sides of the issue, and nearly everyone's opinion is important in the matter.

Either way, good luck to the OP. You've received a FAQ long ago from me.

Dark Archive

Majuba wrote:

No, he's confusing permanent bonuses.

Maybe. Because it's a confusing FAQ.

Core: "Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses." & "Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability."

FAQ: "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do." & "A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

This seems to contradict itself? Do they mean 'everything a permanent ability change would EXCEPT extra spells, and ability uses, and languages, and etc etc'. If so, why say it affects anything repeatedly, it just adds to the confusion.

Edit: Just to note, I don't have any horse in this race, none of my characters have or are planning to use Combat Reflexes, it just seems to be a very confusing situation which I'd like to know exactly how the Devs intended to work.

Liberty's Edge

Driver 325 yards wrote:

Xavier, I agree with you. What the Devs should have said was that ability damage affects your ability modifier and not your ability score. That would have been clear, concise, logical and all inclusive. However, they made a list which naturally leads to something being left out.

As you have point out, they left out AoO and thus by RAW it is left out.

It is not an exclusive list and the devs have stated as such many times.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Kazumetsa Raijin I think that at this point you're just being rude. I think many of us are applying common sense. What you seem to fail to grasp is that this is a discussion of PURE RAW. RAW, sadly, doesn't use common sense. It uses ONLY what is printed on the page in the books and in FAQs, and the most literal meaning. In our game at home, enlarge reduces your AoO you gain from combat reflexes, that is my ruling as a GM. What I'm talking about is a strictly pure RAW interpretation. That's what we've been discussing. SO please check the high and mighty routine, okay? This is a process, and one that I enjoyed quite a lot.

On that note, I think that we have banged this around enough to agree (mostly) that by RAW, because of the comment about it not being an exhaustive list, as well as agreeing that AoO are not based on your 'permanent' dex bonus, but on your current one, then temp bonuses and penalties will impact your number of AoO under the combat reflexes feat. At least I'm satisfied. Feel free to keep discussing it folks.


Cap. Darling wrote:

Pathfinders rules for ability damage is one of the weak points of the system. In an attempt to simplifying somthing they made a clumsy lump on the rules.

If it is not on the list then you dont loose it by RAW.

Uhm, yeah no.

The list is an abbreviated list for ease. If your dex drops, your dex drops.


Suthainn wrote:
Majuba wrote:

No, he's confusing permanent bonuses.

Maybe. Because it's a confusing FAQ.

Core: "Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses." & "Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability."

FAQ: "Temporary ability bonuses should apply to anything relating to that ability score, just as permanent ability score bonuses do." & "A temporary ability score bonus should affect all of the same stats and rolls that a permanent ability score bonus does."

This seems to contradict itself? Do they mean 'everything a permanent ability change would EXCEPT extra spells, and ability uses, and languages, and etc etc'. If so, why say it affects anything repeatedly, it just adds to the confusion.

Edit: Just to note, I don't have any horse in this race, none of my characters have or are planning to use Combat Reflexes, it just seems to be a very confusing situation which I'd like to know exactly how the Devs intended to work.

It's confusing because the FAQ changes and supersedes the RAW. Prior to the FAQ temporary bonuses worked much like penalties, you got a +1 to relevant statistics for every two points. You only got a +1; non-numeric things like bonus spells, extra languages, extra skill points, etc. weren't affected.

The FAQ changes all that. After the FAQ, temporary bonuses work just like permanent bonuses except for duration.

The FAQ only changes temporary bonuses, however, penalties and damage remain unchanged. They're still -1 for every two points. You only get a -1; non-numeric things like bonus spells, extra languages, extra skill points, etc. aren't affected.

Sczarni

Xavier319 wrote:

Kazumetsa Raijin I think that at this point you're just being rude. I think many of us are applying common sense. What you seem to fail to grasp is that this is a discussion of PURE RAW. RAW, sadly, doesn't use common sense. It uses ONLY what is printed on the page in the books and in FAQs, and the most literal meaning. In our game at home, enlarge reduces your AoO you gain from combat reflexes, that is my ruling as a GM. What I'm talking about is a strictly pure RAW interpretation. That's what we've been discussing. SO please check the high and mighty routine, okay? This is a process, and one that I enjoyed quite a lot.

On that note, I think that we have banged this around enough to agree (mostly) that by RAW, because of the comment about it not being an exhaustive list, as well as agreeing that AoO are not based on your 'permanent' dex bonus, but on your current one, then temp bonuses and penalties will impact your number of AoO under the combat reflexes feat. At least I'm satisfied. Feel free to keep discussing it folks.

You're implying I'm rude, but by no means am I being rude. That's on you. I gave you the RAW, my opinions, cites, and explained how it should generally function. Rulings and opinions exist, so you'll have to get over it and stop taking it so harshly, or just not read it. I guess you didn't read closely enough or you read too closely and became offended. Feel free to continue saying I'm "rude" though, I don't mind it.

By no means am I "high and mighty". Again, that's just your interpretation. I'm merely posting my knowledge and debates on the ruling thread. I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't recall pointing you out, or anyone else in specific, nor bashing anyone in any way. I'm sorry you took it that way, but I promise it isn't. Text can come off in all sorts of different ways, without other expressions.

Quantum Steve wrote:
It's confusing because the FAQ changes and supersedes the RAW.

I just looked at that FAQ thoroughly, and I could see how that is confusing as well.


For me, the FAQ entry on temporary vs permanent ability bonuses barely provides clarity on that specific question and provides zero clarity on the question of how ability-damage penalizes a character.

What we do know is that temporary bonuses to an ability score do not increase the number of times an action linked to that ability score can be used: i.e. bear's endurance doesn't let you rage more often, eagle's splendor doesn't let you lay on hands more often, fox's cunning doesn't grant you more spell slots, and cat's grace shouldn't boost the number of times per round you can make an AoO. Just so, ability damage shouldn't affect how frequently these types of powers can be used. Ability damage affects "skill and statistics" and provides examples. How frequently a power can be used doesn't seem to be considered a "statistic" in the same way that one's attack bonus or armor class is.

So, I don't believe that ability damage should reduce a Combat-Reflexes character's AoO's per turn as the that number is based on their dexterity bonus, a value which dexterity damage does not change. For me, the numbers of AoOs per round and the numbers of Lay on Hands per day both fall in the category of frequency-of-use, i.e. "other bonuses." The rules on drain really highlight the differentiation between ability drain and ability damage.

"Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses." The bold is mine. This tells us that dexterity damage does not actually reduce one's dexterity score. The penalty it applies is not to the score, nor to the bonus, but rather just to related stats.

Ability drain, unlike ability damage, would actually change ability bonuses. It calls out the things other than "skills and statistics" which could be affected, including skill points and "other bonuses." Abilities which can be used a number of times per period (lay on hands, channel energy, spell slots, AoOs w/ CR) based on some ability bonus would be affected.

Caveats: I'm RAI agnostic and don't believe there is such thing as common sense when it comes to adjudicating the rules of a world of wraiths and rapiers.


Cap. Darling wrote:

Pathfinders rules for ability damage is one of the weak points of the system. In an attempt to simplifying somthing they made a clumsy lump on the rules.

If it is not on the list then you dont loose it by RAW.

Agreed. I don't follow RAW, so I'd say you lose an AoO. But PF's rules are utterly atrocious in this area (among many others...), so if you are a "RAW guy"...tough luck.


dirgeoverdrive wrote:
and cat's grace shouldn't boost the number of times per round you can make an AoO

cat's grace should absolutely increase the number of AoOs you get with combat reflexes.

dirgeoverdrive wrote:
Abilities which can be used a number of times per period (lay on hands, channel energy, spell slots, AoOs w/ CR) based on some ability bonus would be affected.

You have the bonus for the entire 'period' for which the # of AoOs is determined.

Aside from 'number of times per period' being your personal artifice to explain this and not being RAW... it doesn't even follow even if it were true.

If you have a stat bonus for an entire day, it absolutely effects the number of per day things you derive from it...

So, if you invent a new term, you should follow it with similar reasoning, that if you have the stat bonus for the entire period of time, you apply it to the derived value.

I don’t know… if you wanna just make stuff up, my recommendation is to be a little consistent about it at least… that’s all I’m saying really.

Back to RAW!! Cat’s Grace affects the number of AoOs you can make with combat reflexes, most certainly does.


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Quantum Steve wrote:
Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
The bold parts, being the most relevant. It seems pretty clear to me. The only difference between Damage and Drain, is that one generally lasts longer than the other, and they are "cured" differently.

Not at all. Review the bold parts again.

Damage applies a -1 penalty for every two points. Drain modifies all the relevant stats.

Damage only gives a numeric penalty, so it doesn't really have any effect of statistics that aren't checks of some kind. A -1 penalty to Combat Reflexes doesn't really do anything.

Hold on a second here, combat reflexes provides you with a scaling bonus off of dexterity, if you take a numeric penalty to combat reflexes you definitely do lose AoOs, even by RAW. There is no ambiguity here, there is only one numeric value associated with combat reflexes, a bonus to AoOs. A penalty applies to the bonus given by the feat, a -1 penalty applied to it reduces the bonus given by said feat by 1.


SKR brought up a while back (before the FAQ) that temporary ability bonuses and damage apply to "rolls and DCs" plus anything else explicitly mentioned on the stat's respective list. You need a little savvy to apply the rules, but it generally means that a temporary Str bonus affects your modifier when applied to attack and damage rolls, but if you're using Dex for one of those rolls instead, a Str bonus doesn't increase it. To illustrate, if you cast Enlarge Person on a character with only 2 Dex or Reduce Person on a character with only 2 Str, you can't render them paralyzed/unconscious. So the number of extra AoOs via Combat Reflexes shouldn't be affected because it's neither explicitly listed nor is it a "roll or DC" that would generally be affected.


Kazaan wrote:
SKR brought up a while back (before the FAQ) that temporary ability bonuses and damage apply to "rolls and DCs" plus anything else explicitly mentioned on the stat's respective list. You need a little savvy to apply the rules, but it generally means that a temporary Str bonus affects your modifier when applied to attack and damage rolls, but if you're using Dex for one of those rolls instead, a Str bonus doesn't increase it. To illustrate, if you cast Enlarge Person on a character with only 2 Dex or Reduce Person on a character with only 2 Str, you can't render them paralyzed/unconscious. So the number of extra AoOs via Combat Reflexes shouldn't be affected because it's neither explicitly listed nor is it a "roll or DC" that would generally be affected.

That doesn't sound like errata or official ruling at all. When you read as written you use definitions of words like they are supposed to be used. Statistics is any piece of information, there are no exceptions that says combat reflexes are not affected. Using special definitions that aren't listed in the rulebooks is some form of RAI, whether in terms of definitions of wording or special exceptions.

"Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."

That's what it says, all statistics. The list below doesn't say "these are the only things that are affected", just because those are the things listed does not mean they are the only things affected as it does not explicitly state that. The rule was defined by the above, the list of examples does not call out any exceptions to the above.

Being rendered unconscious with certain types of ability score penalties is orthogonal to this discussion, any bonuses or penalties not listed as damage or drain cannot bring you below 1 anyway.

Silver Crusade

Legalistic rules contortions aside, of course you get fewer AoOs when your DEX drops as a result of being enlarged. All my many GMs, no exception, do it that way.

This affects my PCs all the time, and it would feel like 'cheating' to do it any other way. I would also argue there are some game balance issues here. Here's a classic example:

Level 1 medium-sized Cleric of Gozreh (or Erastil, et al) with the Plant (Growth) domain. Stats are:

STR:16 DEX:14 CON:14 INT:10 WIS:14 CON:10

Feats: Combat Reflexes (3 AoOs at 14 DEX, only 2 AoOs at 12 DEX)
Primary Weapon: Longspear +3 for 1d8 +4 (Large damage is 2d6+6)

This character can Enlarge Person as a Swift Action. A standard tactic is to become Large exactly 15-20' away from several foes who are not yet engaged in melee. This locks down those foes, because they will draw an AoO if they move. In this situation there is substantial difference between getting 3 AoOs, versus only 2, because it's entirely likely that three or more foes will attempt to move.

This sort of PC is already a strong option. If we don't decrease available AoOs when the PC gets Large this approach gets 50% more attacks. I won't go so far as to say it's over-powered, but it definitely would feel imbalanced. Just buying Combat Reflexes and a 14 DEX should not get you four attacks per round. Three Large attacks per round at first level is plenty. The loss of an AoO is the trade-off for becoming Large.

That's my 2 cp. Again.

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