Monk Style Feat question.


Pathfinder Society

Dark Archive

The thing I want to know centers around the Wolf Style Feat in "Blood of the Moon"; is that considered a racial feat as per Additional Resources? The source book itself says "The following style feats were developed by werewolf-kin monks, but can be used by anyone with an affinity for
wolves and their kind," which would imply that anyone can indeed take it. It all seems rather vague and I'm looking to clear this up.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

According to Additional Resources, "Racial feats, racial traits, and racial spells are only available for characters of the skinwalker race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it."

There is no other mention of any feats being legal for non-skinwalkers.

Dark Archive

But there's also no mention of the Wolf Style being a racial feat, which muddies the issue.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Then it's not legal.

The Additional Resources document lists what is legal, not what is illegal. The only reference of legal feats in that book is the quote I provided above.

Dark Archive

The Additional Resources does indeed list many things which are illegal. What I want the ruling on is is Wolf Style constitutes a racial feat. A good deal of other feats in "Blood of the Moon" do say they are only for those races (example: "These feats are available to werebat-kin".), but Wolf Style reads quite differently, as I said in my first post.

Whatever official ruling comes down I will abide by; I just want it crystal clear one way or another.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Please, you've got a couple stars. Let's not go down the road of "official ruling or bust". The answer is already there, you're just not seeing it.

Here is the entire quote from the Additional Resources:

Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of the Moon wrote:


To create a skinwalker (which includes all were-kin), you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation.

Note: Racial feats, racial traits, and racial spells are only available for characters of the skinwalker race. Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it.

The becoming a lycanthrope section of this book is not legal for Pathfinder Society play unless noted on a future Chronicle sheet.

Equipment: all equipment on page 30 are legal; Magic Items: all magic items on pages 30-31 are legal; Mystery: the lunar mystery is legal for play.

There are several things this tells us:

1) The lunar oracle mystery is legal for play.
2) All magic items on pages 30-31 are legal for play.
3) All equipment on page 30 is legal for play.
4) The "becoming a lycanthrope" section is not legal for play.
5) To create a skinwalker character, you need a boon opening it up as an option.
6) Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased by anyone, as long as the specific item permits it.
7) Racial spells are available only to skinwalkers.
8) Racial traits are available only to skinwalkers.

and lastly

9) Racial feats are only available to skinwalkers.

There is no mention of any other feats being legal.

If the book contained the feat "Weapon Focus", it would not be legal.

It doesn't matter if Wolf Style is a racial feat, a combat feat, a style feat, what-have-you. It is not a legal feat for you to pick.

There is no ambiguity, muddy water, or whatever. It's crystal clear, and it's how the rest of the Additional Resources document operates.

Dark Archive

Then people had better stop using spells from the Advanced Player's Guide; they aren't listed on Additional Resources, either, so they must be illegal, too.

Dark Archive 4/5

William Bumgarner wrote:
Then people had better stop using spells from the Advanced Player's Guide; they aren't listed on Additional Resources, either, so they must be illegal, too.

Once again that is not correct the relevant text is below

"The following parts of the Advanced Player's Guide are NOT legal for play:
craftsman alternate Dwarven racial trait
practicality alternate Halfling racial trait
heart of the fields alternate Human racial trait
Alchemist's Brew Potion class ability (he receives Extra Bombs instead as a bonus feat)
Cavalier's Expert Trainer class ability (he receives Skill Focus [Handle Animal] instead as a bonus feat)
Witch's Cauldron hex
Antipaladin alternate class
Cooperative Crafting feat
all cursed magic items and artifacts
the Hero Point new rule and associated feats, spells, and magic items"

Additional resource links can be inclusive or exclusive ie what is allowed or what is not allowed, The APG listing lists only what is not legal as it is one of the few books in which almost everything is legal and it would actually take longer to specify what is legal rather than what is not and it clearly specifies that at the top of the entry, the Blood of the Moon listing follows the standard format and specifies what is legal.

Pretending that it is exceptionally difficult to parse in no way means that it actually is so, the rules are quite explicit on what is and is not available.

Fortunately this means you dont have to worry about that feat as it either is not legal at all (assuming its not racial) or is restricted to Wolf type skinwalkers (if it is racial).


It is not that hard.

Each book entry list what is legal, or in some cases (probably because it's faster to do so), what is NOT legal out of said book.

The ONLY things noted for general legal use out of Blood of the Moon are:

Racial equipment and magic items can be purchased and used by any race as long as the specific item permits it.
Equipment: all equipment on page 30 are legal
Magic Items: all magic items on pages 30-31 are legal
Mystery: the lunar mystery is legal for play.

There is zero mention of any spells, feats, classes or anything else being legal from that book for general use.

-j

Dark Archive

Then there probably SHOULD be a mention of it, one way or another; this isn't the first time I've found that Additional Resources page to be confusing. And I'm not the only one, as several other people I've spoken to are of the opinion that the text within "Blood of the Moon" disqualifies Wolf Style as a racial feat, which is what prompted this question. The way it reads should be changed to "Feats are only available to skinwalkers". That can't be THAT hard, can it? Clears up a lot of muddy water and removes any and all debate over whether Wolf Style is a racial feat or not, because it firmly states that it wouldn't be legal anyway.

I'm not trying to be a jerk or rock anyone's boat or get a rule changed (though I'll freely admit I wouldn't mind if that were to be a sole exception to the feats in the book), but I absolutely hate things that are seemingly ambiguous and arbitrary, which is all I seem to encounter with that page.


I still don't see how it's ambiguous.

It says exactly what it allows. Some equipment, magic items, and a Mystery.

There is some text on how only people with a skinwalker boon can use this or that racial stuff, but it has no impact on other non-skinwalker characters.

-j

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

It sounds like he's just having issues with the AR document as a whole, and not necessarily just this section.

Then again we've also re-re-reiterated what it means, so maybe not.

Dark Archive

Again I have to disagree; it says racial feats are only allowed for skinwalkers. But there's nothing in the text of the book itself that says Wolf Style is a racial feat. To the contrary, it says "can be used by ANYONE", which I feel would disqualify it AS racial.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

It doesn't matter if it's a racial feat or not!

Either way, it's not legal. Get over it.


Yeah, even if it isn't a racial feat, no feats at all are mentioned as being allowed from that book.

Only some magic items, equipment, and a mystery. That's it. No feats or anything else.

-j

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

To be fair, I did not realize there was a formatting or pattern to AR. I ad purchased the book and saw the same as William-racial feats were not allowed. I then went through and checked what was and was not racial. Several feats were clearly listed as racial while others (not just wolf style) lacked that distinction. Without knowing that the general rule is that AR simply tells you what is legal and anything not listed is by default not legal, then it leads one to believe that wolf style would be legal as it is not a racial feat and the AR entry only informs him that racial feats are not legal.

I see plenty of room for ambiguity from that point. The feat requirements are worded in such a way that anyone who is not cheating would want to be sure; a second opinion, basically.

Basically, William, what they are trying to say is that regardless of what is stated under a given books entry of legality/illegality, the usual format is that only things specifically called out as legal are legal. So only the page numbers given, specified feats or items, etc, mentioned, would be legal. For example: If it says that human feats are not legal for play except by humans but then says that only the elf feats on page 21 are legal for play, those called out elf feats are now the only legal feats for use in that book and your human character be damned. :/

This is the general rule for AR. Sorry that you cannot use wolf style. I went through the exact same thing.

@nephreet Without a clear undertanding (like you have) it totally matters whether or not it is a racial feat or not. The entry says racial feats are not allowed and no fewer than 6+ feats in that book have racial prerequisites but also provide very clear but potentially dubious exceptions. Is it racial if anyone can qualify? Is it racial by default of having a race listed as a requirement?-but wait, it also says that you don't necessarily have to be a member of the race to qualify- and that is listed in the same prerequisite entry as another option for qualification.

Other feats in the book have a race as a requirement but have no alternate qualifications listed. They are clearly racial.

If someone is not aware that this easily logical pattern of thinking is irrelevant, then they would (and should) pursue questioning and clarification to understand why this otherwise sane thought process suddenly is debunked. All of THIER information is right. So why are they wrong?

As you can see, it very much matters about the feats being racial or not until you have been educated with how this specific documentation of legal material works. And if it has been explained and he did not understand, people can do as one or two others above have done and attempt to clarify how his otherwise good logic, was made irrelevant in this particular case.


The AR list entry for Blood of the Moon says that racial feats can only be taken if you have a Skinwalker boon.

It does not, however, otherwise state you can take ANY feats at all from that book. If something says "only X characters can take Y feats", that does NOT automatically mean that everyone else can take non-Y feats. It has to specifically say something like "Non-Y feats are legal" or "everything is legal except A, B and C".

So if you don't have the boon, it does not matter at all if it is a racial feat or not, you can't have it. No feats are listed as being allowed for non-skinwalkers.

It spells out in the next paragraph exactly what IS allowed for general use.

-j

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

The problem we're dealing with the OP is that he's one of those ppl where an "official ruling" is the only thing that will satisfy him. The clouds must part and the divine light must embrace him, because he is a special snowflake.

I don't know where these ppl keep coming from, but they're multiplying.

Several ppl now have attempted to explain it to him, and he's still not relenting. He wants the Additional Resources document edited so that it is "crystal clear" to him rather than listen to anyone else. He keeps claiming it's confusing, yet he's the only one with this misunderstanding.

I was initially giving him some credit. He's got a couple stars under his belt, so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, but not after this back-and-forth.

2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nefreet wrote:

The problem we're dealing with the OP is that he's one of those ppl where an "official ruling" is the only thing that will satisfy him. The clouds must part and the divine light must embrace him, because he is a special snowflake.

I don't know where these ppl keep coming from, but they're multiplying.

Several ppl now have attempted to explain it to him, and he's still not relenting. He wants the Additional Resources document edited so that it is "crystal clear" to him rather than listen to anyone else. He keeps claiming it's confusing, yet he's the only one with this misunderstanding.

I was initially giving him some credit. He's got a couple stars under his belt, so I was giving him the benefit of the doubt, but not after this back-and-forth.

Whoa, my friend. Back up. At this point, as far as I see it, it is you and not the OP that is breaking the jerk rule. That he is being a bit obtuse about the matter does not give you the right to go insulting him that way.

No, he does not think he is a "special snowflake." And for the love of God can we all stop using that horrible term, which at this point has become gamer speak for "person that does not play the way I do." And no, he is obviously not the only one with the misunderstanding, as DI's (very gentlemanly) post makes clear.

Tons of misinformation gets posted on these boards (even by high star folks, but I'll come to that in a moment), so the impulse to want official answers is perfectly understandable, even if in this particular case it might not be warranted.

And finally, can we nip this GM star fetishism in the bud please? I know 4 and 5 star GMs that are not terribly competent, and expert GMs with no stars. Stars don't mean a thing except for how long you've had your ass in a seat.

EDIT: Which is not to say that how long you've had your ass in a seat counts for nothing. It's actually terribly meaningful; you've paid your dues and contributed. It does not, however, necessarily correlate with having an advanced understanding of the game.

4/5

William Bumgarner wrote:
Again I have to disagree; it says racial feats are only allowed for skinwalkers. But there's nothing in the text of the book itself that says Wolf Style is a racial feat. To the contrary, it says "can be used by ANYONE", which I feel would disqualify it AS racial.

Generally feats that are featured as part of a racial writeup are considered racial feats. Though the way those feats are presented in the book does present some ambiguity about that, and if a skinwalker boon is ever released that info will have to been cleaned up and clarified.

As of right now those feats are illegal option whether or not they are racial as no skinwalker boon exists, and if those feats are not racial they are still not listed as legal options from that book.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Diplomacy: 1d20 + 10 ⇒ (20) + 10 = 30 Gentleman, lets settle this like adults. Rock, scissors, paper!

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

1 person marked this as a favorite.

You can generally tell by the tone of my comments whether I've had my coffee yet or not.


Nefreetsaid wrote:
You can generally tell by the tone of my comments whether I've had my coffee yet or not.

Yeah, might be time to hit the coffee machine :D. People just get passionate when it comes to these monk feats...lol

Dark Archive

Thank you, Jeffrey Fox; that was the only answer I was seeking when I posed the question. I've only been at this for a little over a year and there is a great deal I find ambiguous or just flat-out confusing. I don't have time to sit and read every single tiny little rule and notation and what-not and just asked for a simple "yes, it's racial" or "no, it's not racial" to clear up my confusion. I didn't want or ask for this to become a fight and I'm sorry I *ever* asked a question. I'll never do that again.


Ironically, if Wolf Style is NOT a racial feat, that means even if you manage to pick up a Skinwalker boon, you could not take it. Because by the wording of the AR entry, skinwalkers can take their racial feats from that book but not non-racial feats.

-j

Dark Archive

I'm not seeing how it means they can only take racials, but even if it's true and there's something I'm missing that wouldn't make sense at all. There are only a handful of feats in that book and if Skinwalkers were to be restricted to racial feats only they would be the absolute weakest characters ever. I suspect that would be clarified should there ever be a Skinwalker boon. The Wereboar, Werecrocodile, Wererat and Wereshark-kin are given no racial feats, meaning that they would have none whatsoever.

The text says that those racial feats are only available to Skinwalkers, not that those are the ONLY feats available to them. Unless there's invisible text I can't see, I'm even more confused now.


I'll clarify with an allegory.

If I have a box with red and green tiles in it, and I say, "Only Bob can take red tiles.", it does NOT mean that it's okay for Steve to take green ones. It means exactly what it says. Bob can take red tiles. Green tiles are not mentioned at all.

Note that I'm only talking about content from Blood of the Moon.

Skinwalkers are the only characters that can take racial feats from the book.

No character can take non-racial feats from that book. None. Nada.

Nowhere in the AR entry does it say anything about feats, except that only skinwalkers can take racial ones. Non-racial feats in Blood of the Moon are not discussed at all. Therefore they are not allowed.

So, if they ever release a Skinwalker boon, the only feats from that book they can take are racial ones.

Which means, if Wolf Style is NOT a racial feat, they can't take it.

Nobody can take it.

-j

Dark Archive

Okay; I see what you were getting at now. Basically, a Werebat-kin can't take the Wolf Style feat because that's a different lycanthropic race entirely. That one I totally misinterpreted. But I'm fairly positive it's been established now that Wolf Style *is* a racial feat for Werewolf-kin.


William Bumgarner wrote:
I'm sorry I *ever* asked a question. I'll never do that again.

Keep asking questions :). Just a little miscommunication, that's all.

2/5

Nefreet wrote:
You can generally tell by the tone of my comments whether I've had my coffee yet or not.

Happens to us all. I've gotten way bent out of shape on here. Definitely some posts I wish I could go back and delete.

EDIT: Sorry if I came on too strong in response. Hadn't had my coffee either. ;)

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

2 people marked this as a favorite.

From what I recall when Mike and I discussed what to legalize months ago, essentially all of the feats, traits, et cetera are limited to skinwalkers until such a time that a Chronicle sheet unlocks those options or we revise the Additional Resources entry to read differently.

You'll notice that each of those feat/trait/hex/spell entries begin with "The following [character options] are available to were[animal]-kin, were[animals], and those who associate with these creatures," or something very similar. These are the racial character options. The Additional Resources entry establishes what is legal in the book.

Community / Forums / Organized Play / Pathfinder Society / Monk Style Feat question. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Pathfinder Society