Do Robes of Arcane Heritage work if you are not a sorcerer but have the eldrich heritage feat?


Rules Questions

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A side note: From hence forth, if someone ever says something you disagree with, simply say that their argument is the same as growing a rat's tail and making tail attacks. Then talk about how silly growing tails is and walk away triumphant! No longer must you actually argue the points the person made, or make a case against their ideas... never more will a tough argument plague you! Simply compare their post to the tail of terror, and ye shall be victorious! Amen.


Xaratherus wrote:
Remy Balster wrote:
There is no connection to that thread whatsoever.

You're claiming that a magic item effectively grants a non-Sorcerer a Sorcerer level, just like that other discussion claimed that a feat caused a human to suddenly grow a tail in order to make an attack (and I disagree that was RAI either; just like this, it assumes you have a tail to begin with).

So while you state there's no connection, I disagree. A Robe of Arcane Heritage no more grants you effective levels in a class that you don't have than a feat causes a tail to rip from your butt because the feat says you can make a tail attack. Just like in that other thread, you might as well claim that taking the Extend Spell metamagic feat grants your Fighter the ability to cast spells since it says "Your spells last longer..."

There's also the fact that in order for RoAH to work for someone other than a Sorcerer, you have to pretzel-bend your logic around the fact that the mechanical section even specifically begins with, "When a Sorcerer dons..." Oh - that just applies to the decorative weave changing? No.

For the purpose of the bloodline power, they have a sorcerer level.

For the purpose of the bloodline power, the item increases it.


With all due respet Remy, even though i see your logic, I think you have it wrong. Aboniks previous post had a logic description of how each feat/magic item interacted...which showed no sorcerer level at any time.

The Feat grants you a bloodline power. Bloodline powers have an effect based on a sorcerer level. Taking this feat for a non-sorcerer would be useless because they would not have sorcerer level. So in order to work, since thay have no sorcerer level, they can take their character level -2 and take this value to determine the effect of the feat...


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Cuttler wrote:

With all due respet Remy, even though i see your logic, I think you have it wrong. Aboniks previous post had a logic description of how each feat/magic item interacted...which showed no sorcerer level at any time.

The Feat grants you a bloodline power. Bloodline powers have an effect based on a sorcerer level. Taking this feat for a non-sorcerer would be useless because they would not have sorcerer level. So in order to work, since thay have no sorcerer level, they can take their character level -2 and take this value to determine the effect of the feat...

I see why you could see it that way.

But I think the key to this whole question is this:

"For the purposes of using that power"

Eldritch Heritage wrote:
You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.

The bolded line tells us under what situation we "treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2".

Basically, whenever we use the power, we treat our sorcerer level as our character level -2. If we are not using this power, we don't have sorcerer levels, effective ones or real ones or any other any ones. Only when we use the power does the whole thing matter, because it only happens "For the purposes of using that power".

Now lets look at the robe.

Robe of Arcane Heritage wrote:
The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.

This robe is worded the same way. The boled part tells us when we "treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal".

It effects us in no other way, it only applies for the bloodline powers. It goes into effect when we use one, and causes us to treat our sorcerer level as 4 higher to determine the effect".

These both seem to happen under the exact same circumstance. When you use your bloodline ability. And they both seem to do the same kind of thing, both of them cause you to "treat your sorcerer level as".

They simply must both function together. They both happen in regards to your bloodline power. They apply to the same thing. They modify the exact same thing. The wording is perfectly synchronized to function together.

For purposes of using that power VS for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.

Same thing here.

treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2 VS treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal.

Same thing here too.

Same trigger, compatible effect.


Remy Balster wrote:
A side note: From hence forth, if someone ever says something you disagree with, simply say that their argument is the same as growing a rat's tail and making tail attacks. Then talk about how silly growing tails is and walk away triumphant! No longer must you actually argue the points the person made, or make a case against their ideas... never more will a tough argument plague you! Simply compare their post to the tail of terror, and ye shall be victorious! Amen.

I know, right? It's like dismissing someone's comparison as being invalid just by saying, "No, it's not the same at all"! Obviously that never happens.

As for not "walking away triumphant": First, I'm at work for another 3 minutes, and was actually busy - sorry to inconvenience you by not immediately responding to your posts. Second, you've had numerous people address the 'arguments' that you've made, and you've disagreed that they did so, so I don't really see a point in rehashing them because of that. You believe it's clear how this functions; numerous people disagree and have given very valid points why they disagree; I don't see a reason to continue this particular exercise in futility.

Silver Crusade

How about you dont screw around with RAW and dumb ways to exploit things and just choose the bloodrager class. I dont want the Robe of Arcane Heritage to be removed because im a REAL sorcerer and it makes a big difference.

Primus


Xaratherus wrote:
Remy Balster wrote:
A side note: From hence forth, if someone ever says something you disagree with, simply say that their argument is the same as growing a rat's tail and making tail attacks. Then talk about how silly growing tails is and walk away triumphant! No longer must you actually argue the points the person made, or make a case against their ideas... never more will a tough argument plague you! Simply compare their post to the tail of terror, and ye shall be victorious! Amen.

I know, right? It's like dismissing someone's comparison as being invalid just by saying, "No, it's not the same at all"! Obviously that never happens.

As for not "walking away triumphant": First, I'm at work for another 3 minutes, and was actually busy - sorry to inconvenience you by not immediately responding to your posts. Second, you've had numerous people address the 'arguments' that you've made, and you've disagreed that they did so, so I don't really see a point in rehashing them because of that. You believe it's clear how this functions; numerous people disagree and have given very valid points why they disagree; I don't see a reason to continue this particular exercise in futility.

I wasn't directing that towards you, relax. Yeah, you inspired it, but it wasn't a communication to you. So no need to defend yourself from something not directed at you in the first place.

I do believe it is clear how this functions. I've said as much. Could I be wrong? Sure of course. Am I? I highly doubt it. Could I though? I'm certainly open to it.

I'm always open to being shown why I am wrong. But I reject anything that is not logically sound. Wholly reject it outright. If you counter my argument with some unsound rebuttal, it will be dismissed or dissected.

I expect the same to be done with what I have to say. Dissect it, counter it, show me why I am wrong, by all means. I enjoy being corrected, genuinely so, it means I am more correct than I was a moment ago. That is all kinds of awesome.

But actually stay on topic... k? Make wild comparisons that hold no bearing on this conversation? Unproductive. Make blanket assertions without logical thought or reasoning? Unproductive. Haven't bothered to read the ability or item description and just wanna chat about your opinion? Unproductive.

What is the most likely to draw my attention is the seemingly intentional attempt to deceive. While I cannot truly know the intention, sometimes I get the sense that someone is intentionally misleading in their posts. I will always respond to that when I see it, and not let it stand.

So... shall will discuss this in a productive manner or an unproductive one?


There's really no productive discussion to be had. RAW its pretty clear that yes Robes of Arcane Heritage will increase your effective sorcerer level for the purposes of the Eldritch Heritage. Some people don't like that and that's fine, but their interpretations are poor at best and don't properly take into context all the words and therefore draw shoddy conclusions.


Anzyr is a giant blue rage monster with sharp pointy teeth. He wins.

/thread


Anzyr wrote:
There's really no productive discussion to be had. RAW its pretty clear that yes Robes of Arcane Heritage will increase your effective sorcerer level for the purposes of the Eldritch Heritage. Some people don't like that and that's fine, but their interpretations are poor at best and don't properly take into context all the words and therefore draw shoddy conclusions.

Also the price of the item and spell used do not take into account price reduction for being a class restricted item. Therefore it should work fine for anyone.


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Thank you for all the responses

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