spies, spying, and the ability to kill / capture a spy if found


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

What is the current breakdown and relevant dev info on spying and the "spy class" (skill set)?

More importantly, if I find a spy in my settlement, one that is from a nation I am not yet at war with, but still hostile to, what actions can I take and can I kill (as in kill the person and send them far away like during an assassination) that person without a hit, and without having to feud his company?

I understand once he finds his info, it has been found for his employers too but I still think he should face some sort of punishment for being caught. She shouldn't just be able to sneak in, gain the info, and waltz right out without fear of harm simply because people are too afraid to get a rep/alignment hit.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

On this subject it is crucially important to distinguish between the character and the player.

The spy's character is not typically going to be associated with the settlement you are hostile with.

Goblin Squad Member

I only know of one game that has a spy-system in place. This is a system that is ruled by several mechanics. Spying seems to be the sort of activity that either involves mostly meta-gamed stuff (infiltration of Alts in enemy town, build trust, convey information, betray a la Eve) or is a more in-game gimmick ruled by mechanics as the one described here(still involving PvP though).

Spying in Age of Wushu/Wulin

Age of Wushu/Wulin has a couple of other rather innovative game-systems, one of them the jailing/execution system. They also have a Criminal/Constable system.

Not saying this stuff is usable in PFO but they are certainly systems that could be learned from, since they have been live for quit some time now. I found it one of the most exiting activities in the game.


Personally, I don't think the rep/alignment hit will be too frightening. Just kill them, stick a bounty on their heads, and declare whoever they were working for to be scumbags. Boom. That's pretty much all you can do in a world where nobody can die.

Goblin Squad Member

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Sue 'em for wrongful death/dismemberment.

Goblin Squad Member

I would prefer that there are no in-game systems or game mechanics for "spying" implemented. The reason being is that it would just be sort of a mini-game when compared to the actual process of someone creating an alt (or a full time spy character who plays all sides to get paid for information) and infiltrating a CC/Settlement/Kingdom.

I imagine spying in Pathfinder Online will occur much like it does in EVE or any other MMO where territory control is a major part of the game. It's up to the CC/Settlement/Kingdom to restrict the flow of information to only trusted individuals. Or to release information and misinformation in such a way as to definitively reveal who the spy is. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Much like it really sucks at the Tabletop when players use their meta-game knowledge to do things their Characters shouldn't know to do, it sucks just as bad in an MMO, even if it's much harder to control.

I don't expect it in PFO, but I would really love to see a game obviate meta-game spying by requiring access to in-game objects in order for your Character to act on certain types of knowledge.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
I don't expect it in PFO, but I would really love to see a game obviate meta-game spying by requiring access to in-game objects in order for your Character to act on certain types of knowledge.

I wouldn't mind it if this could be accomplished. It's just that any in-game system I can think of for doing such a thing would be susceptible to being circumvented by the players. For example, how would you begin to create in-game objects which represent things like the knowledge of troop or resource movements that only someone with a spy skill/ability can steal to sell to an interested party?

It seems that implementing something like that would have to be a fundamental part of the game or a framework which everyone would be forced to use first, in order to move troops, resources, etc. Then, the "information" could be stolen and sold in-game. It might work for resource movement, but when troops are other players, how can you create an in-game object which corresponds to their unpredictable movement? Unless, of course, you tie those objects in with a GPS-type system that lets the purchaser of said information see exactly where certain players are for a certain window of time.

Again, if it were possible to restrict the flow of information about nearly every object/aspect of the game to in-game interactions only, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But I believe a game would probably have to be designed from the ground up with that in mind, or a considerable amount of effort/time/money would have to be applied to the development to realize such a vision.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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Nihimon wrote:

Much like it really sucks at the Tabletop when players use their meta-game knowledge to do things their Characters shouldn't know to do, it sucks just as bad in an MMO, even if it's much harder to control.

I don't expect it in PFO, but I would really love to see a game obviate meta-game spying by requiring access to in-game objects in order for your Character to act on certain types of knowledge.

That would be awesome, but impossible. There's no way to tell the difference between a high-level decision made because of high-level metagame information (They're telling everyone to train X ability, so lets encourage everyone to train Y counter to it), and those exact same actions being taken for object-level reasons.

Now, espionage items and actions that provide a direct mechanical effect are simply PvP on a new battlefield, and that battlefield can be made on the object level, but there's still a metagame aspect over it.

Goblin Squad Member

So what do you guys think of the Spying-mechanic in Age of Wushu that I linked?

Gimmick? Fun way to initiate some PvP?

For me it was one the funnest ways to try to *avoid* PvP while explosing myself to the chance. I'll admit right away that the actual *spying* has no consequence to anything else but your own progression.

Then again, I firmly believe that true spying will be completely in the realm of meta-gaming.

Goblin Squad Member

There will other types of spying instead of meta-gaming.

Examples might be:

Going into the market of a rival Settlement to see what their pricing trends are and to see if they have anything 'special' they are producing for sale then reporting it back to your Settlement or selling that info to other rivals.

This involves scouting, slipping behind enemy lines and observing them building their siege weapons as they ready to march toward your own Settlement.

Those two above are just off the top of my head for in-game spying, but they are spying.

I'm just saying, that spying doesn't have to be as sinister as creating an alt to join another Company to learn how they structure their organization and such...

Goblin Squad Member

Alzaric wrote:
For example, how would you begin to create in-game objects which represent things like the knowledge of troop or resource movements that only someone with a spy skill/ability can steal to sell to an interested party?

You would have to make the map fairly huge, and use instancing to allow two groups of players to be in "roughly the same area" without actually encountering each other unless they all had an in-game object that had those coordinates. Spies could get access to a copy of that object in-game and trade it.

DeciusBrutus wrote:
There's no way to tell the difference between a high-level decision made because of high-level metagame information (They're telling everyone to train X ability, so lets encourage everyone to train Y counter to it), and those exact same actions being taken for object-level reasons.

It wouldn't try to differentiate after the fact. It would simply not allow certain actions unless the Character had a specific in-game object that enabled that action. The example above about being in a specific part of the map works.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
(They're telling everyone to train X ability, so lets encourage everyone to train Y counter to it)

Yeah, I have no idea how to counter that kind of meta-knowledge...

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
(They're telling everyone to train X ability, so lets encourage everyone to train Y counter to it)
Yeah, I have no idea how to counter that kind of meta-knowledge...

Actually this is fine. People know the general tactics, and traders talk, etc. so a group that trains fighter generic level 3 will be known as a group that employs fighters of the generic level 3 variety. Like a martial arts school, or the Crusades.

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