Bane question (inquisitor ability)


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

So this just crossed my mind, and I realized I wasn't sure what the answer was.

Is the extra 2d6 from the inquisitor's Bane ability considered precision damage? More precisely, when using Manyshot while baning, do you roll the extra 2d6 for each arrow, or only once like you would if it was a sneak attack?


Well, it's roughly based off the Bane weapon special ability, and that is not considered precision damage to my knowledge - so I would say no, it's not. Given how limited the uses per day of the ability is, I'd hesitate to weaken it further by considering it precision damage.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I believe it would apply to each arrow. It would not get multiplied on a crit, though.

Silver Crusade

Yeah, I was never multiplying it on a crit, I was just rolling 2d8 + 8d6 (greater bane) + 24ish on my first attack of a full attack. Then another thread made me reread the Manyshot feat and it got me thinking...

The Exchange

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
... I was just rolling 2d8 + 8d6 (greater bane) + 24ish on my first attack of a full attack...

Wait, what?

Please explain that damage. Especially the 8d6 for greater bane part.

Liberty's Edge

Belafon wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
... I was just rolling 2d8 + 8d6 (greater bane) + 24ish on my first attack of a full attack...

Wait, what?

Please explain that damage. Especially the 8d6 for greater bane part.

He's using Manyshot, which does damage as two attacks, Greater Bane adds +4d6...so two times that is 8d6.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

He's firing 2 arrows with the Manyshot (1d8 for each arrow = 2d8) then Greater Bane on each arrow (4d6 times 2 = 8d6). The extra static damage is from weapon enhancement, feats (point blank, deadly aim)

The Exchange

waltero wrote:
He's firing 2 arrows with the Manyshot (1d8 for each arrow = 2d8) then Greater Bane on each arrow (4d6 times 2 = 8d6). The extra static damage is from weapon enhancement, feats (point blank, deadly aim)

Got it now. I was thrown off by the numbers. Greater bane is obviously 4d6 total per arrow, but +24 seemed kinda low for two arrows from what's at least a 12th level inquisitor.

Now that I think about it some more I guess that is reasonable if judgement of destruction isn't active.
2 x [+6 (deadly aim) +~3 (normal weapon enhancement) +2 (bane) +3 (strength) +1 (PBS)]

Silver Crusade

I'm not a 12th level inquisitor, I'm a 10th level inquisitor with a Bane Baldric. My attack and damage breakdown is as follows:

Attack bonus:
Dex: +6
BAB: +7
Judgment of Justice: +2
Heroism: +3
PBS: +1
Deadly Aim: -2
Rapid Shot: -2
Bane: +2
Haste: +1
Weapon enhancement: +2
Total: +20/+20/+20/+15 (first attack is 2 arrows)

Damage:
Arrow: 1d8
Str: +2
Deadly Aim: +4
PBS: +1
Bane: +2 +4d6
Judgement of Destruction: +4
Weapon enhancement: +2
Total: +15

Attack sequence: +20/+20/+20/+15 (1d8+15/x3) with the first attack being 2 arrows.

The Exchange

So if your GM allows this to work (more below) your first hit would be 2d8+8d6+30. I'm on board with the math now.

Unfortunately the Bane Baldric doesn't work that way RAW. If your GM allows it, that's fine. (The issue is that Greater Bane is a separate class feature from Bane and the baldric doesn't actually give you access to that feature early.)

Silver Crusade

It does work that way RAW because there is no ability an inquisitor can use called Greater Bane. Greater Bane is just what happens when an inquisitor who is considered level 12 or higher for the purpose of Bane uses their Bane class ability.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I'm not a 12th level inquisitor, I'm a 10th level inquisitor with a Bane Baldric.

Bane Baldric does not grant early access to Greater Bane, as pointed out by James Jacobs.

Your GM could houserule differently, however. Bane Baldric really only gives you an additional 5 rounds of use per day. Do a search on the messageboards here if you want to read all the arguments about the item.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
It does work that way RAW because there is no ability an inquisitor can use called Greater Bane. Greater Bane is just what happens when an inquisitor who is considered level 12 or higher for the purpose of Bane uses their Bane class ability.

Here is just one of many threads that discuss the Bane Baldric.

Ultimately the decision to allow early access to Greater Bane or not lies entirely with your GM.

The Exchange

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
It does work that way RAW because there is no ability an inquisitor can use called Greater Bane. Greater Bane is just what happens when an inquisitor who is considered level 12 or higher for the purpose of Bane uses their Bane class ability.

Take another read of the inquisitor class. They are separate class features.

Quote:
Bane (Su): At 5th level, an inquisitor can imbue one of her weapons with the bane weapon special ability as a swift action. She must select one creature type when she uses this ability (and a subtype if the creature type selected is humanoid or outsider). Once selected, the type can be changed as a swift action. This ability only functions while the inquisitor wields the weapon. If dropped or taken, the weapon resumes granting this ability if it is returned to the inquisitor before the duration expires. This ability lasts for a number of rounds per day equal to the inquisitor’s level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Quote:
Greater Bane (Su): At 12th level, whenever an inquisitor uses her bane ability, the amount of bonus damage dealt by the weapon against creatures of the selected type increases to 4d6.

Silver Crusade

Belafon wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
It does work that way RAW because there is no ability an inquisitor can use called Greater Bane. Greater Bane is just what happens when an inquisitor who is considered level 12 or higher for the purpose of Bane uses their Bane class ability.

Take another read of the inquisitor class. They are separate class features.

Quote:
Bane (Su): At 5th level, an inquisitor can imbue one of her weapons with the bane weapon special ability as a swift action. She must select one creature type when she uses this ability (and a subtype if the creature type selected is humanoid or outsider). Once selected, the type can be changed as a swift action. This ability only functions while the inquisitor wields the weapon. If dropped or taken, the weapon resumes granting this ability if it is returned to the inquisitor before the duration expires. This ability lasts for a number of rounds per day equal to the inquisitor’s level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Quote:
Greater Bane (Su): At 12th level, whenever an inquisitor uses her bane ability, the amount of bonus damage dealt by the weapon against creatures of the selected type increases to 4d6.

Which ability do you use when you activate Greater Bane? Oh, look at that, you use your Bane ability. Greater Bane is just what occurs when you are effectively level 12 for the purposes of Bane. And the Bane Baldrix raises your effective level for the purpose of Bane.

I'm done discussing this, though. We can either get back onto the topic of the thread or we can just stop talking altogether.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Belafon wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
It does work that way RAW because there is no ability an inquisitor can use called Greater Bane. Greater Bane is just what happens when an inquisitor who is considered level 12 or higher for the purpose of Bane uses their Bane class ability.

Take another read of the inquisitor class. They are separate class features.

Quote:
Bane (Su): At 5th level, an inquisitor can imbue one of her weapons with the bane weapon special ability as a swift action. She must select one creature type when she uses this ability (and a subtype if the creature type selected is humanoid or outsider). Once selected, the type can be changed as a swift action. This ability only functions while the inquisitor wields the weapon. If dropped or taken, the weapon resumes granting this ability if it is returned to the inquisitor before the duration expires. This ability lasts for a number of rounds per day equal to the inquisitor’s level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.
Quote:
Greater Bane (Su): At 12th level, whenever an inquisitor uses her bane ability, the amount of bonus damage dealt by the weapon against creatures of the selected type increases to 4d6.

Which ability do you use when you activate Greater Bane? Oh, look at that, you use your Bane ability. Greater Bane is just what occurs when you are effectively level 12 for the purposes of Bane. And the Bane Baldrix raises your effective level for the purpose of Bane.

I'm done discussing this, though. We can either get back onto the topic of the thread or we can just stop talking altogether.

There's nothing about Bane to suggest it's precision-based damage. I can't see why it wouldn't be doubled, RAW.

Though for your character, as others have said, you do not have the greater bane ability yet, so you wouldn't get this benefit. Per James Jacobs, and the most straightforward reading of the rules. They're different class features. The fact that they are similar does not change that. Sorry to keep playing after you took your ball and went home.

Silver Crusade

When I sit down at your table you can worry about telling me how to play my character. Until then, I'll just keep playing it by the rules. I really don't give two figs what JJ said, since he is self-admitted not a rules guy.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

This is like the 1st level Fighter wearing a sash of the war champion. It doesn't give him early access to Armor Training.

Likewise, a 10th level Inquisitor with a bane baldric only has 15 rounds of Bane, not Greater Bane.

JJ need not be involved, just a simple reading of the rules.

Grand Lodge

Bigdaddyjug wrote:

So this just crossed my mind, and I realized I wasn't sure what the answer was.

Is the extra 2d6 from the inquisitor's Bane ability considered precision damage? More precisely, when using Manyshot while baning, do you roll the extra 2d6 for each arrow, or only once like you would if it was a sneak attack?

Yep. Each arrow fired gains the Bane benefits, Inquisitors make great archers for this reason.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
When I sit down at your table you can worry about telling me how to play my character. Until then, I'll just keep playing it by the rules. I really don't give two figs what JJ said, since he is self-admitted not a rules guy.

Technically speaking, Greater Bane is a completely separate class feature that modifies the Bane class feature. They're very similar, but not the same thing.

It would work the way you think if the bit about Greater Bane were listed within the description for the Bane ability, but since they're listed separately then they're different class features.

That being said, it's not too much of a stretch for a DM to houserule that this would work, but it is technically a houserule.


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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
When I sit down at your table you can worry about telling me how to play my character. Until then, I'll just keep playing it by the rules. I really don't give two figs what JJ said, since he is self-admitted not a rules guy.

Not sure if this is in response to me, or others, or just a general statement. But if you don't want anyone's input on how to interpret a rule, starting a thread asking for input on the Rules Questions section of the website seems like an interesting move.

And while James is admittedly not a rules guy, like you say, the guy is a high-level designer at Paizo. While his opinion might not be an official ruling, I think it's safe to say that it carries more weight than Joe Schmoe Message Board Poster.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Dudes, here's the answer

UE P220 wrote:
If the wearer is an inquisitor, she is treated as five levels higher when using her bane and greater bane abilities

Pretty clear to me that it affects both.

Now, it looks like my inquisitor characters are gonna need this. Munny will love doing an additional 2d6 per shot.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Yes, when using her bane and greater bane abilities.

If you're only a level 11 Inquisitor, you're not yet using your Greater Bane ability. That comes, as a class feature, at level 12. Then you're golden. Until that ding, you're just a 16th level Inquisitor with regular Bane.

The Baldric does not give you early access to a class feature. See my Sash of the War Champion example above.


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Silbeg wrote:

Dudes, here's the answer

UE P220 wrote:
If the wearer is an inquisitor, she is treated as five levels higher when using her bane and greater bane abilities

Pretty clear to me that it affects both.

Now, it looks like my inquisitor characters are gonna need this. Munny will love doing an additional 2d6 per shot.

That isn't really at question, Silbeg. What is at question is whether or not a 7th level Inquisitor gains access to Greater Bane while wearing the item.

I've chimed in on this when it came up before, and my opinion is you don't get early access to Greater Bane. It is a separate class feature that enhances Bane. If it were written into the Bane class feature itself, as, "At 12th level, the amount of bonus damage dealt by the weapon against creatures of the selected type increases to 4d6," then you'd get it - but they separated it out into a second 'tier' of the feature, and just like qualifying for feats with class features, you don't have that feature until you reach the level where you get it.

Silver Crusade

MyTThor wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
When I sit down at your table you can worry about telling me how to play my character. Until then, I'll just keep playing it by the rules. I really don't give two figs what JJ said, since he is self-admitted not a rules guy.

Not sure if this is in response to me, or others, or just a general statement. But if you don't want anyone's input on how to interpret a rule, starting a thread asking for input on the Rules Questions section of the website seems like an interesting move.

And while James is admittedly not a rules guy, like you say, the guy is a high-level designer at Paizo. While his opinion might not be an official ruling, I think it's safe to say that it carries more weight than Joe Schmoe Message Board Poster.

First of all, I didn't start a thread asking about this particular question. Somebody upthread decided to "Oh by the way" my thread with his interpretation of the rule, which I then disagreed with and it devolved into a discussion that is completely off the topic of the original question.

The original question was simply whether or not the extra damage dice from Bane was considered precision damage for the purpose of the Manyshot feat. I have gotten a more than satisfactory answer to that question. As to the discussion that has evolved, I (and many of the people who GM in my area) have my interpretation, and each of you has your own interpretation. I'm not going to start a thousand post thread arguing about, because frankly I don't care. I will give a final note on my opinion, though.

Xaraherus, there may be a listing on the inquisitor chart saying "Greater Bane", however there is no ability an inquisitor can use called Greater Bane. When you read the description of Greater Bane, it still says "when you use your Bane class feature". To me, that means Greater Bane is just what happens when you are considered level 12 or higher for the purpose of calculating Bane. The Bane Baldric raises your effective level for Bane by 5 levels. It doesn't say it gives you 5 extra rounds, it says "you are treated as 5 levels higher when using your Bane and Greater Bane abilities". Now, if all it does is give you 5 extra rounds of Bane, why doesn't it just say that?


Bane isnt precision , nowhere have i seen it stated as precision, it gets multiplied on a crit. Bane baldric does not grant early access to class featires, just treats you as higher level for the class abilities you already have. Greater bane is a seperate class feature.


Bigdaddyjug wrote:
The Bane Baldric raises your effective level for Bane by 5 levels. It doesn't say it gives you 5 extra rounds, it says "you are treated as 5 levels higher when using your Bane and Greater Bane abilities". Now, if all it does is give you 5 extra rounds of Bane, why doesn't it just say that?

Because that's not generally the language that they use on magic items? Do a quick search on the PFSRD and you'll find that "treated as X levels higher" is the standard language used to describe a magic item that increases the benefits of a class feature. Do the same thing with the phrase "extra rounds"; you'll see that there's no magic items that use that text (there may be variations, but again, the standard language is "X levels higher").

A counter-question: If they are not separate abilities, then why does the Bane Baldric phrase them as separate abilities? "...when using your Bane and Greater Bane abilities"? Why not just say, "...when using your Bane ability"?

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
there is no ability an inquisitor can use called Greater Bane

There isn't?

Bane Baldric wrote:
when using your Bane and Greater Bane abilities


Aha! Wishful thinking thwarted by deft logic! Even the most obtuse poster should see the point Xaratherus just made. Well done, clearly couldnt have worded that better myself, I tried.

Silver Crusade

If they are 2 separate abilities, why does the listing for Greater Bane call out that you are using your Bane ability? Answer that question, and I will answer yours.

And no Daenar, that is not any amount of proof. It is entirely possible that the person who created the Bane Baldric wasn't aware of the text of the Greater Bane listing on the inquisitor chart and that it was just a modification of the Bane ability, and not a separate ability all its own.

There are feats whose exact text is "grants you X extra rounds of XXX ability per day", so I don't see why they couldn't use that text for a magical item. I choose to believe it is because the Bane Baldric does more than just grant you 5 more rounds of Bane per day. I choose to believe it is more like the Bracers of the Merciful Knight, which not only grant you more uses of Lay on Hands, but also increase your effectiveness with each Lay on hands.

Edit: On a humorous note, I accidentally called it a Babe Baldric at one point in the post, but caught it before I posted. Now I'm wondering what a magical item called a Babe Baldric would do.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It would likely increase your level when using your Babe and Greater Babe abilities. It would not grant you X more rounds of Babe.


Well, to start I find it rather rude that I answered your question - and fairly clearly, I thought - and asked one in return, but then you refuse to answer unless I answer another question. But regardless...

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
If they are 2 separate abilities, why does the listing for Greater Bane call out that you are using your Bane ability? Answer that question, and I will answer yours.

Among other possible reasons: To indicate that they are using the same resource. It's similar to how the Paladin's Mercy refers back to Lay on Hands - it lets the player know that despite being a separate class feature, it doesn't have its own pool of "Mercy uses per day" but instead draws from the "Lay on Hands" resource.

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
There are feats whose exact text is "grants you X extra rounds of XXX ability per day", so I don't see why they couldn't use that text for a magical item.

They could have. They didn't. So, irrelevant, and my point stands - it's using the common language structure for magic items.

Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I choose to believe it is because the Bane Baldric does more than just grant you 5 more rounds of Bane per day. I choose to believe it is more like the Bracers of the Merciful Knight, which not only grant you more uses of Lay on Hands, but also increase your effectiveness with each Lay on hands.

And I wouldn't argue with you on that. Want to know why? Because those Bracers explicitly call out the fact that they increase the healing done by the Paladin's Lay on Hands. The equivalent here would be that the baldric explicitly called out that it granted you the Greater Bane class feature upon reaching 7th level Inquisitor.

Now, I'll re-ask my question: If they are intended to be the same ability as far as this specific item is concerned, please explain why they refer to the Bane and Greater Bane abilities.

Silver Crusade

I did answer that question, I just asked my second question first. As I said, it's entirely possible that the creator of the Bane Baldric wasn't aware that there was no actual ability called Greater Bane that an inquisitor can use. Even the Greater Bane listing on the inquisitor chart says you are using your Bane ability. It wouldn't be the first time somebody creating an item/feat/whatever for a later book didn't confirm something that was published in a previous book (or even the very same book for that matter).

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