D4rtagnan |
Persistent spell makes them roll twice for any saving throws and take the lowest. It a really goodfeat.
Other feat I'd look at is:
-Craft Magic Item (cause it just so good)
-Toughness
-Leadership
-Magic Pen + Greater Magic Pen.
-Highten Metamagic
Also what type of game are you in? What is everyone else playing?
Do you have a face characteror are you acting as the equivalent?
If you are the closest thing to the face I suggest taking on of the 'extra trait' feats out there and piucking up Student of Philosophy
....that is if traits are allowed?
Mind if I ask you why you went Wizard for your Enchanter?
Generally Witches and Sorc. are consistered better for that line of casting.
EDIT:
Oh as for multiclassing, my advice...dont do cleric.
Your best option would be to take a one level dip into sorc and pick up a crossblood Undead/Serpentine bloodline. It would work wonders for the number of things you can target.
Gregory Connolly |
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By RAW, multiclassing into Cleric (Calistria) 1 and taking the trickery domain, you qualify for early entry into Mystic Theurge at Wizard 3/ Cleric 1. That can be a whole lot of power and win for a 1 level dip.
For an enchantment specialist the 2 best metamagic feats for landing spells are Persistent Spell and Heighten Spell.
D4rtagnan |
Really? i know that true for a conj focused wizard but for enchanment....
Anyways I still stand by what I said for multiclassing if you
Really want to specialize in enchantment....
Otherwise the cleric trick posted abouve is a good call (if your GM allows it. It is a bit cheesy)
I'd personally advise holding of on the metamagic feats for the next level and grab craft magic items. Right now you don't have access to the high level spell slots you need to use metamagic effectivly.
andreww |
Bouncing Spell isnt terribly good. You are betting on whatever you target making their save and then having another available target.
I would pretty much stick with Persistent at 5th and later on Quicken, probably at 9th. You might want to grab Reach at some point as some of your spells have a rather short range. You will need Spell Penetration later on. For now though at level 3 your best options are almost certainly Craft Wondrous Item or Improved Initiative.
Multiclassing a primary caster is generally a bad idea unless you really know what you are doing.
Elrawien Lantherion |
By RAW, multiclassing into Cleric (Calistria) 1 and taking the trickery domain, you qualify for early entry into Mystic Theurge at Wizard 3/ Cleric 1. That can be a whole lot of power and win for a 1 level dip.
For an enchantment specialist the 2 best metamagic feats for landing spells are Persistent Spell and Heighten Spell.
Heighten spell is the only metamagic feat that boosts DCs right?
Gregory Connolly |
I would either go Cleric to Mystic Theurge or stay Wizard. Suggestion is the key spell because it isn't limited by creature types. I would want to take Heighten Spell as my bonus feat and take Preferred Spell (Suggestion) with my character feat. Don't neglect the Linguistics skill as an Enchanter, it is as important for you as it is for a Conjurer.
Takhisis |
No, the charming touch and other wizard class features do not rise in level as you advance in mystic theurge. The only time class features such as domain powers, wizard school powers, Oracle mysteries ect.. increase in power with prestige class levels is if the prestige class has a feature that specifically states they do, such as how the Hellknight Signifier has an ability that allows levels in it to increase the effectiveness of domain powers, mysteries etc... Since mystic theurge sadly has no such class feature(s), channeling, domain powers and wizard school powers do not level up when you take levels in the class. Only your spellcasting does. Hope that helps some.
As for the build, I would not dip sorc if it dosen't fit your RP concept. Mystic Theurge is certainly a viable route, but you'll need some wisdom to make it viable. If you have dumped wisdom I'd stay away. You'd need, at the least, 14 wisdom before items to make it worthwhile, and even then if all you have is 14 you'd need to invest some serious gold into boosting it with stat-boost items. Personally, I'd go straight wizard. Your school powers advance and you get more feats and spells. That reminds me, if you do go mystic theurge you also won't get bonus spells from leveling up, and instead will have to spend gold to "purchase" scrolls and spellbooks to learn your higher level spells from until your back taking wizard levels again. So yeah, I'd say just keep taking wizard.
As for feats, persistant spell and heighten spell will be your best friends. Also, if there is a specific spell you like, consider getting spell perfection for it at level 15+ to apply metamagic to it for free. Good candidates are suggestion(or it's mass counterparts), Dominate Person and Dominate Monster. You'll also want spell penetration and greater spell penetration if you plan on doing offensive casting(and as an enchanter, you do.), as SR can be a real pain at higher levels. You'll also want spell focus enchantment + greater spell focus enchantment to pump those DCs up as unlike sorcerers you don't have any class features that do that on their own and you're not a Kitsune. Finally, if you go the spell perfection route you'll need a third metamagic feat. Since you're an enchanter, Extend Spell is a good one for you as it will make your dominate effects last longer and Quicken spell is good for every caster period.
Also, if you have the room, consider the opposition research discovery for the Necromancy school. Since you lack the DC increasers that sorcs and Kitsune get naturally, a good way to "boost" your save DCs(which is VERY important for an enchanter) is by debuffing enemies before you hit them with your enchantments. Necromancy, by far, is the best school for doing this and the opposition research arcane discovery(which can be taken at level 9 or any level after where you would get a feat, including wizard bonus feats.) lets you "un-prohibit" the necromancy school and gain back full, normal access to it. In fact, in 3.5e it was customary to never ban necromancy as an enchanter due to the awesome synergy between necromancy's debuffs and enchantment's save-or-sucks.(well, this and that there where multiple feats that boosted the DCs of enchantment, necromancy and illusion spells at the same time.)
Also, as an alternative to opposition research, there is the leadership feat. Most Dms ban this, so it's likely not a viable route, but if your GM allows it and you have ok charisma you could use it to get a cohort that could debuff enemies for you. Good options for this would be a necromancy-specalist wizard, a witch, or a "bad touch"/debuff-focused cleric. The wizard has the added bonus of being a way to add additional spells to your spellbook, if you're a collector-type.
Takhisis |
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Yeah, but Mystic theurge is, as I stated, only worth it if the OP's character has the wisdom for it. This isn't 3.5e where they can just go into it as a wizard/archivist and have one casting stat. If the OP's character has a wisdom less then 14 then there is honestly no point to going into mystic theurge. Even if they have good charisma, Oracle is usually a horrible target for MT as the ONLY way to get early entry from one is the Wood mystery, and I don't think that fits the fluff the OP is going for at all...
If the OP's character has the wisdom, then yes, MT is totally worth it and I recommend it fully. However, if the OP's character dose not then it will just end up making them waste excessive resources to pump a stat that would otherwise be a dump stat for them, and therefor becomes not worth the trouble.
Ilja |
Yeah, but Mystic theurge is, as I stated, only worth it if the OP's character has the wisdom for it. This isn't 3.5e where they can just go into it as a wizard/archivist and have one casting stat. If the OP's character has a wisdom less then 14 then there is honestly no point to going into mystic theurge. Even if they have good charisma, Oracle is usually a horrible target for MT as the ONLY way to get early entry from one is the Wood mystery, and I don't think that fits the fluff the OP is going for at all...
Fully agreed.
Takhisis |
Good to know. So yeah, if the OP could provide us with their character's wisdom score, we could help them out better, I think. Mainly because then we could know whether or not mystic theurge is actually viable for them and talior our advice accordingly. I mean, if there character dumped wisdom entirely, then the overwhelming consonances that they should go mystic theurge which is being espoused now would quickly become an overwhelming consensuses that they should not, so that is kinda an important detail for this discussion.
Takhisis |
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Ah. Good to know. In that case, Mystic Theurge will actually be do-able if you want to go that route. If you are at all interested in mystic theurge you should go into it knowing one thing: you will not use cleric casting for offensive magics. While 14 wisdom is enough to go into theurge, you will never have the spell DCs to make offensive cleric casting worthwhile. However, that dosen't matter. Why? Because the cleric list happens to have a lot of good spells that are not attack spells to begain with or happen to offer no saves. Simply put, your wizard spellcasting, with all it's enchantments, is what you'll use for your offensive spells while cleric will offer you versatility, and loads of it. A +2 wisdom item, which is not that hard to get at later levels, is all you'll ever need for wisdom boosts if you don't plan on offensive casting cleric spells(which, IMO, you don't.). This will get you 16 wisdom, which is all you'll ever need.
Why? Because by the end of mystic theurge, you'll essentially be a level 11 cleric and level 13 wizard, and since you're using wizard as your offensive class the best choice for you would be to continue on in wizard or take a PrC that boosts wizard casting after you finish MT. Unlike 3.5e, MT is the only dual-caster progression class in PF, so you won't be able to continue boosting both cleric and wizard casting at the same time. While you could "alternate" levels this ultimatly makes you weaker, as you lose too many caster levels on both ends and never access the highest spell levels as a result. Thus, it becomes wiser to pick one caster class to be your "main" focus class and another one that you add on for extra versatility. Since you have more intelligence then wisdom, and want to focus on enchantment anyway, wizard becomes your "focus" class while cleric comes in to give you extra versatility. Level 6 cleric spells is more then enough to be considered "versatile" and you can also still prepare your cleric spells in higher level wizard slots if you want to metamagic the heck out of them due to mystic theurge's class features.
All and all, I'd say that if you like the idea of mystic theurge, go for it. Your character already seems pretty set up for this too. She is a worshiper of Calistria and has already fashioned herself after her in a way(with the "wasp" motif and all) so transitioning her faith into a position in the church would be both logical character development and would make sense for the character.
As far as build advice, just build your character as a standard enchanter, using the advice we gave, and treat your cleric casting as an added source of versatility. It will give you a LOT of extra things to do, and you'll have more spells per-day then anybody. Just be sure, however, to obtain that +2 wisdom item as soon as you can. You won't ever need more then +2 if you intend to focus on wizard more then cleric like I said, but the +2 is vital to get.
Also, as for why mystic theurge over straight wizard? One word, versatility. You are a 11th level cleric and 13th level wizard, essentially, by the time you finish. For the simple loss of ONE caster level, you get 11 levels of prepared, divine spellcasting that nets you level 6 spells, with what is most likely the most extensive divine spell list in the game. You lose very little and gain a whole lot. While your wizard school powers(but not spellcasting!) will be somewhat weaker while leveling up in mystic therurge, the fact you get level 6 cleric spell access is WELL worth that sacrifice.
However, you will have to spend quite a bit of gold to be good at being a mystic theurge as you'll need to both buy a +2 wisdom item, and you'll need to purchase all your wizard/sorc spells while leveling up in MT. If you can spair the gold, though, it is a powerful option to have.
andreww |
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Yes, heighten is how you raise DCs and Persistent forces a second save if they succeed on the first one. No, your wizard class abilities do not advance if you multiclass as anything.
EDIT: Ninja'd about multiclassing and Takhisis said it better.
Persistent will give you significantly better results than Heighten. Take a few examples at different save points:
Target saves against your spell on a 6:
Heighten it by two levels and your chance to affect them goes from 25% to 35%. Forcing them to roll twice changes the chances from 25% to about 44%
Target saves against your spell on an 11:
Heighten it by two levels and your chance to affect them goes from 50% to 60%. Forcing them to roll twice changes the chance from 50% to 75%.
Target saves against your spell on a 16:
Heighten it by two levels and your chance to affect them goes from 75% to 85%. Forcing them to roll twice changes the chance from 75% to about 94%.
Basically Persistent is pretty much always the better choice.
Gregory Connolly |
Charm is a good domain for you to go with Trickery. I wouldn't take the Lust sub-domain. It is gonna be a wisdom based DC though it does scale with level, so of the 3 higher level powers (which you never get by the way) the best by far is the Love sub-domain power, and the worst by far is the Lust sub-domain.
Gauthok |
Also, if there is a specific spell you like, consider getting spell perfection for it at level 15+ to apply metamagic to it for free. Good candidates are suggestion(or it's mass counterparts), Dominate Person and Dominate Monster.
Most of Takhisis's post is good advice, but Dominate Monster is a horrible choice for Spell Perfection. Spell Perfection has a built in "9th level limit", so you wouldn't be able to use it on Dominate Monster anyways.
XMorsX |
Not much to add that it has not already been said, just only that Bouncing Spell is one of the best metamagic feats you can get your hands on for a save-or-lose/suck specialist. It comes right after Persistent Spell in importance IMO. Spells like Dominate Person make it absolutely worth it as soon as you can utilise it effectively.
If you take Highten Spell, make sure you also take Prefered Spell at least once, being able to spontaneously cast is a fantastic ability.
At higher lvls, when you already have take Opposition research for Necromancy, Threnodic Spell will give you a way to affect undead too (I generally recommend against it though, a +2 lvl increase is just too much, and it is difficult to utilise it properly as a prepared caster).
Quicken Spell is mandatory after a certain lvl.
Eventually you wil also want to take spell perfection, I really like Confusion for this. A persistent hightened to 9th lvl spell confusion is absolutely devastating.
Spell penetration is also a must (about from 7th lvl onwards) and greater spell penetration will be useful.
A sample progression:
1 Wizard SP (Ench)
2 Wizard
3 Wizard Greater SP (Ench)
4 Cleric
5 MT Improved Initiative
6 MT
7 MT Spell Penetration
8 MT
9 MT Bouncing Spell
10 MT
11 MT Peristent Spell
12 MT
13 MT Quicken Spell
14 MT
15 Wizard Spell Perfection (Confusion)
16 Wizard Highten Spell, Prefered Spell (whatever, lets say confusion since it is awesome) (bonus)
17 Wizard Greater Spell Penetration
18 Wizard
19 Wizard Prefered Spell (anything you fancy again, maybe Dominate Monster, or Euphoric Tranquility, or Irresistible Dance)
20 Wizard
Of course your build may vary a lot (maybe you want to add Divine Interference for example instead of one high lvl feat. But this is a general guideline. Both bouncing dominate person and persistent confusion require 6 lvl spell casting, so the lvls I put them are about the right spot. After spell perfection, highten spell makes confusion absolutely ridiculous, and preffered spell lets you spontaneously cast your most used spells, so that you can memorise safely more situational spells. If I am not mistaken, MT allows you to expend slot of the one class to cast a spell from the other, making prefered spell even more effective.
LazarX |
Does a mystic theruge's wizards abilities like charming touch advance as they take levels in the class?
I found out that we might be going mythic so that is another thing to consider.
Your class and school abilities do not advance, just caster level, and spells per day.
andreww |
Takhisis wrote:Also, if there is a specific spell you like, consider getting spell perfection for it at level 15+ to apply metamagic to it for free. Good candidates are suggestion(or it's mass counterparts), Dominate Person and Dominate Monster.Most of Takhisis's post is good advice, but Dominate Monster is a horrible choice for Spell Perfection. Spell Perfection has a built in "9th level limit", so you wouldn't be able to use it on Dominate Monster anyways.
It will still double the save DC and caster level bonuses from stuff like spell focus and spell penetration. If you take Magical Lineage it will let you apply a single level metamagic such as Reach or Piercing. I wouldn't do it in a game starting from first but if playing a high level one shot or something it can be useful.
XMorsX |
If we do go mythic and I do go MT, would being both hierphant and archmage be good or just stick to archmage?
There is a lot of overlap, do not expect any significant gain, especially since most path abilites focus on healing and channeling.
That being said, if you have no better feat than Dual Path to take, there are good hierophant path abilites, like Divine Metamastery, Enduring Blessing and Mighty Summons.
EDIT: Actually it is worth it, if only for Inspired Spell. With this and Wild Arcana, you also make Preffered Spell largely obsolete (although I still liek it for your Signature spell and Emergency Force Sphere).