The "Greater Trip feat and Attacks of Opportunity" thread to Rule Them All!


Rules Questions

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Remy Balster wrote:

Subject - You

Action - Perform
Object - Trip attack

What does it mean to successfully perform? I thought that was a skill check. And it has nothing to do with the trip combat maneuver.

Are we singing people into the prone condition now?? Or is this a dance move? Yeah, guess Perform: Dance is the most appropriate for "successfully performing a trip attack". Good thing we cleared that up!!!

Ha. That doesn't sound reasonable does it? That sounds silly huh?

That is because it is silly. You have to add new words into the substitution to force it to make any sense. But guess what? Those new words change the meaning. You feel the substitution is wordy? That means you didn't substitute... you added extra meaning. You changed it.

In your case, you added in making skill checks for the perform skill for some reason. Not sure why you think performance has anything to do with this conversation... but hey, you add new words in and you are going to get unexpected results.

His substitutions were direct substitutions. He didn't change anything. It didn't make any sense though did it? That is because the position you propose doesn't follow. It is wrong. You have made an error.

The trigger from Greater Trip simply isn't what you want it to be.

You're right. I'm referring to the perform skill here. That's exactly what I meant.

I'm done wasting my time here. There are people here who are actually capable of having an intelligent discussion from different sides of a debate without resorting to being condescending and dismissive. You are not one of those people, so I don't feel like engaging you anymore.


HangarFlying wrote:

Ah, since death is not clearly defined within the rules, my character shall continue to attack after aquiring the dead condition.

Move isn't defined either. I guess my character can't change positions.

Cast isn't clearly defined, I guess that leaves spells out.

Attack isn't actually clearly defined, either, just that in order to attack you must roll a d20. But what does attack mean? Are our characters manipulating a disembodied hand to roll a d20 towards their enemies?

Air isn't objectively defined, so I guess all of our characters asphyxiate and die, but that's ok because there is no objective definition of death.

Food and water aren't objectively defined either, so all that stuff that requires food or water is right out.

See, the writers don't provide objective, concrete definitions for these things because because the developers know we aren't stupid and expect us to bring some fundamental knowledge with us when we sit down to play the game.

So look up the word trip in the dictionary and use some common sense.

I guess I am missing something. All those things you listed aren't clearly defined, sure. But you're using them as examples to show that Trip isn't either. But...Trip is clearly defined. It's in the CRB. If roll beats CMD, then target knocked prone. 1st sentence, 2nd paragraph in the Trip entry of the Combat Maneuvers section of the Combat Chapter. So there's no need to go to a dictionary or even apply common sense. The Devs have done all the work for us. Just read it.

I understand we may disagree. I also understand the use of exaggeration to make a point. However, you are arguing that something is not clearly defined, when it is.


Jacob Saltband wrote:

So whose common sense should we use? Yours? Mine? Elbedors? Sub_Zeros?

Shimesens? Xaratherus's? fretgod99s? etcs?

See my common sense doesnt agree with your interpretation of trip.

Humorously (or not) my common sense says a prone target is immune to trip, and a trip attack automatically fails against it. But unfortunately I also see precedent in the rules, and confusion introduced by various FAQs, that makes me question whether the 'common sense' rule ultimately plays out in this case. There are times when common sense hasn't won out in a ruling, after all.

Shadow Lodge

Xaratherus wrote:
Jacob Saltband wrote:

So whose common sense should we use? Yours? Mine? Elbedors? Sub_Zeros?

Shimesens? Xaratherus's? fretgod99s? etcs?

See my common sense doesnt agree with your interpretation of trip.

Humorously (or not) my common sense says a prone target is immune to trip, and a trip attack automatically fails against it. But unfortunately I also see precedent in the rules, and confusion introduced by various FAQs, that makes me question whether the 'common sense' rule ultimately plays out in this case. There are times when common sense hasn't won out in a ruling, after all.

I agree.


fretgod99 wrote:
I understand where you're coming from, but I think this is a disingenuous substitution.

'Disingenuous' would imply insincere or untruthful in a devious way. I'm hardly attempting that. Not sure why you would think so, unless you were meaning something else.

fretgod99 wrote:
"Whenever you successfully perform a trip attack on an opponent" is a perfectly legitimate and understandable phrasing, but is far wordier.

I've been thinking on this a bit since yesterday and I'm really doubting if it would fit. And not for Remy's reasons...whether he was being snarky or being funny.

We know "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent...".
We also know the general purpose of making a Trip Attack and the definition of "to trip" is to knock your target prone. That's why I can see easily substituting "trip" for "knock prone" to get:
"Whenever you successfully knock prone an opponent..."

Whether anyone agrees or disagrees, I would think people would admit that it is a possible interpretation. The definition of "to trip" is "to knock prone". So that fits nicely. We are replacing a word with its definition. However, I see difficulty in taking out "trip" and putting "perform a trip attack on" in its place. "To perform a Trip Attack" is not the purpose of "to trip". We don't trip a target in order to perform a trap attack against him. It's the other way around. We perform a trip attack against a target in order to trip him. Performing a trip attack is the d20 roll. It comes BEFORE the tripping, not as a result of it. If we said:

"Whenever you successfully perform a trip attack on an opponent..."

We would have to finish that statement with:

"...you trip that opponent."

Which really isn't saying anything regarding Greater Trip.

I'm wondering if this stems from seeing "to trip" and "a trip attack" as the same thing. I surmise they are not the same. The first is the action of imparting the prone condition upon a target. The second is the Roll you are making in hopes of tripping. So I really don't see the other interpretation flowing as smoothly.


the sheer amount of semantics being argued within this debate now is astounding. we are to the point that we are dissecting the English language so that we can understand weather or not be get an AoO from something.

the only real question that needs answering at this point is: can you Successfully trip a prone target? if the answer (which i believe almost everyone here agrees you cannot without some other special rule) is no, then greater trip has no use unless the target is standing.

if thats not good enough for you, then you are begging the question: "well what if i have greater trip and just keep making trips with my AoO's before the target goes prone?". well then lets look at weather or not you are trying to break the game by obvious misuse. if you are re-tripping someone hows (from an imaginative point of view) already falling, you are abusing the system, and your GM should shut you down. stop trying to abuse things. the game was not made to be abused, it was made to enjoy...


Yeah, I agree about the word pretzels. Unfortunately it tends to happen when people can't agree on what words mean...like "Trip" in this case. heh But if the answer to whether you can trip a prone target is "No" (which I agree with), then I'm curious as to the answer of the next question; "Why is it 'no'?"


In case anyone missed it in the "Can I 'trip' him?" thread, a very good point was brought up that may be the deciding factor in this debate.

Greater Disarm and Greater Trip are both worded similarly. They want you to "successfully X" an opponent before some ability takes place. For GD, this ability is that the item disarmed lands 15ft away. For GT, this ability is that the tripped target provokes AoOs.

We know the Effect of a Disarm attack is for an item to drop from the target.
We know the Effect of a Trip attack is for the target to be knocked prone.

When Greater Disarm happens, in order for us to be successful, we need more than just the CM roll. The Effect of an item being dropped MUST be in place before that item can land 15ft away. It is impossible for it to land 15ft away and THEN be dropped.

This proves that the Effect must be in place first, before the ability granted by the feat can trigger.

So this means that the Prone Effect must be in place first, before the provoke can trigger.

We can have either Group A:
Greater Disarm, weapon dropped by owner, weapon lands 15ft away.
Greater Trip, target knocked prone, target provokes AoOs.

or Group B:
Greater Trip, target provokes AoOs, target knocked prone.
Greater Disarm, weapon lands 15ft away, weapon dropped by owner.

The sequence is either one way or the other because the mechanics for both feats are worded the same way. So we cannot pick one item from Group A and another from Group B. We must take all of either Group. As it is impossible to have a weapon land 15ft away BEFORE it is dropped by the owner, Group B is not possible.

Not sure if this is more or less of a word pretzel for anyone, but I hope this helps clear things up.

Liberty's Edge

Elbedor wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:

Ah, since death is not clearly defined within the rules, my character shall continue to attack after aquiring the dead condition.

Move isn't defined either. I guess my character can't change positions.

Cast isn't clearly defined, I guess that leaves spells out.

Attack isn't actually clearly defined, either, just that in order to attack you must roll a d20. But what does attack mean? Are our characters manipulating a disembodied hand to roll a d20 towards their enemies?

Air isn't objectively defined, so I guess all of our characters asphyxiate and die, but that's ok because there is no objective definition of death.

Food and water aren't objectively defined either, so all that stuff that requires food or water is right out.

See, the writers don't provide objective, concrete definitions for these things because because the developers know we aren't stupid and expect us to bring some fundamental knowledge with us when we sit down to play the game.

So look up the word trip in the dictionary and use some common sense.

I guess I am missing something. All those things you listed aren't clearly defined, sure. But you're using them as examples to show that Trip isn't either. But...Trip is clearly defined. It's in the CRB. If roll beats CMD, then target knocked prone. 1st sentence, 2nd paragraph in the Trip entry of the Combat Maneuvers section of the Combat Chapter. So there's no need to go to a dictionary or even apply common sense. The Devs have done all the work for us. Just read it.

Again, you're stating the result of a trip is what defines what a trip is. I am pointing out that the result doesn't define what a trip is, it merely describes what happens when you successfully trip someone.

Whatever. Two ships passing in the night. It's not worth arguing over.


Hangarflying wrote:

Again, you're stating the result of a trip is what defines what a trip is. I am pointing out that the result doesn't define what a trip is, it merely describes what happens when you successfully trip someone.

Whatever. Two ships passing in the night. It's not worth arguing over

You are saying that the "effect" is not the definition. Yes? Well look at it this way: every verb in the English language has a definition that describes the effect of said verbs action. So if trip is its self an action, or verb, then its definition is also its effect. They are the same.

Dictionary.com wrote:

(non-aplicable definitions omitied to simplify stupidity)

Trip (verb)

5. a stumble; misstep.
6. a sudden impeding or catching of a person's foot so as to throw the person down, especially in wrestling.
7. a slip, mistake, error, or blunder.
8. an error or lapse in conduct or etiquette.
9. a light, nimble step or movement of the feet.

Even in English, the "effect" of stumbling or falling is the definition of a trip.

In the case of pathfinder #6 is the most accurate definition as we use it in the game. "So as to throw the person down" would be the same as "knock prone" here.

So, to sumorize, the "effect" laid down in the pathfinder rules is nothing more than a very specific definition for the action "trip" so no one thinks its about making a long journey. They went with prone as a condition applied from a trip instead of a whole new one again, just to simplify the system.

Effectively, being tripped and falling prone on your own do the same thing, so why make two different conditions?


HangarFlying wrote:
Elbedor wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:

Ah, since death is not clearly defined within the rules, my character shall continue to attack after aquiring the dead condition.

Move isn't defined either. I guess my character can't change positions.

Cast isn't clearly defined, I guess that leaves spells out.

Attack isn't actually clearly defined, either, just that in order to attack you must roll a d20. But what does attack mean? Are our characters manipulating a disembodied hand to roll a d20 towards their enemies?

Air isn't objectively defined, so I guess all of our characters asphyxiate and die, but that's ok because there is no objective definition of death.

Food and water aren't objectively defined either, so all that stuff that requires food or water is right out.

See, the writers don't provide objective, concrete definitions for these things because because the developers know we aren't stupid and expect us to bring some fundamental knowledge with us when we sit down to play the game.

So look up the word trip in the dictionary and use some common sense.

I guess I am missing something. All those things you listed aren't clearly defined, sure. But you're using them as examples to show that Trip isn't either. But...Trip is clearly defined. It's in the CRB. If roll beats CMD, then target knocked prone. 1st sentence, 2nd paragraph in the Trip entry of the Combat Maneuvers section of the Combat Chapter. So there's no need to go to a dictionary or even apply common sense. The Devs have done all the work for us. Just read it.

Again, you're stating the result of a trip is what defines what a trip is. I am pointing out that the result doesn't define what a trip is, it merely describes what happens when you successfully trip someone.

Whatever. Two ships passing in the night. It's not worth arguing over.

I'm still wondering why we should use the definition "to stumble" instead of "to fall" for our definition of trip. At least one of these definitions matches the book more closely then the other.

also, I should clarify before I said that you missed the point earlier. My original point was simply that when we're given something close to a definition, it will serve us better then using another. I'm not saying that "to stumble" isn't a valid definition of the word trip. I'm saying that "to fall" is just as valid, as is the other multitude of definitions. Sure we need to exercise common sense. I agree with you on that front. the problem is we all have apparently different common senses. When the CRB tells me that Trip means X, that's what I accept it to mean. At least we then have something to go off of.


Sorry if this has been asked before or even in this thread, but if the condition is just success on the roll and not prone, then can I get my AoO on flying creatures even though can't be tripped into prone while flying? I'm rusty on tripping flying creature rules to remember if you can even preform the maneuver in the first place, but if so, then I think that's interesting that you wouldn't need them to be prone, especially if the rule is you can't trip a prone creature. Everyone greater trips for maximum aoo's!


Rapanuii wrote:
Sorry if this has been asked before or even in this thread, but if the condition is just success on the roll and not prone, then can I get my AoO on flying creatures even though can't be tripped into prone while flying? I'm rusty on tripping flying creature rules to remember if you can even preform the maneuver in the first place, but if so, then I think that's interesting that you wouldn't need them to be prone, especially if the rule is you can't trip a prone creature. Everyone greater trips for maximum aoo's!

Whether this is RAW or not, the way I would rule creatures that are explicitly stated as being immune to Trip would be that their CMD is, for all purposes of tripping, treated as approaching infinity. Meaning you can't ever beat it. They are "untrippable". So anything that fires on a successful roll wouldn't fire because the roll can NEVER be high enough. Not even on a Nat20.

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