'selfish Bards' using Saving Finale & Gallant Inspiration on themselves


Rules Questions


THE SITUATION
Last session my Dawnflower Dervish failed his Will Save for a Confusion spell & started wreaking havoc on the rest of the party. I later wondered if I had cast Saving Finale if this would have possibly prevented that.

THE CURRENT RULING
Wouldn't have worked b/c of the Confusion. Also, goes against the 'spirit' of the spell.

THE DM's LOGIC:
The immediate action would take place immediately AFTER he became confused (his failed save), and in his confused state, he can't determine who has failed a saving throw nor he could not cast the spell on himself while babbling incoherently or intending on attacking others. The spirit of this spell is to help others, not the bard themselves.

THE PLAYER'S LOGIC
The immediate action of Saving Finale happens right before the effects of the failed save take place; if it didn't occur before a failed save, then there'd be no point to the spell. Also, the spell Allegrohas a similar 'As an Immediate Action you can re-roll a failed Reflex Save' ability, just more clearly written out. Lastly, the spell Gallant Inspiration explains that such Immediate actions have retroactive impact on failed rolls.

THE BOARDS
So far I've only found two threads on the Forums related to Saving Finale being cast on yourself:
Bard saving himself with Saving Finale
and
Saving Finale (APG) Bard Spell

But that's neither 'official' nor a lot to read from, so I'm coming on to ask people for their insight & hoping for at least several responses for my DM to then consider. There's really 2 questions:

1) can Bards cast spells like Saving Finale & Gallant Inspiration on themselves- why or why not
2) if they can 'normally' cast these spells on themselves, can they still do so even after failing a Saving Throw that affects their mental faculties to the point where they wouldn't be able to cast spells- why or why not?
3) do you think a Bard casting this on themselves goes against the intention or spirit of the spell- why or why not?

Any help would seriously be genuinely appreciated. Thank you.


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"The DM's logic" is flawed: Being in the state of confusion does not prevent targeting oneself correctly with a spell unless a d100 roll indicated a state that forces specific action - which does not take place until the start of the subject's turn following being affected.

Also, the claim that "The spirit of this spell is to help others, not the bard themselves" is just made up without any actual basis in the description of the spell itself - if it was so, the spell would state that it only works on creatures other than the caster.

1. No reason why not the spell can't be cast on oneself.

2. Personally, I rule that immediate action can be used in such situations possibly saving the subject.

3. Nothing in the description of the spell implies that this spell is intended to only work on others.


First: there's nothing in the rules that prevent to use the spell on yourself. Anything regarding the "spirit of" is related to RAI and not RAW....what it means, is that when you start debating about RAI, anything is possible, any opinion is good....

Personnaly, I think this is all a question of timing. when does it occur.

Now, this spell is not limited to specific spells. So you could apply it to anybody who just failed it's save agains desintegrate.

Based on your DM's interpretation, somebosy failing disentegrate woud die before having the chance to save again. The spell does not say that you cannot reroll. Instead, anytime somebody fail a save, there is the possibility to have him reroll....therefore I would go with the player's interpretation


Hi Drejk.

The Confusion Spell does indeed state, "This spell causes confusion in the targets, making them unable to determine their actions. Roll on the following table at the start of each subject's turn each round to see what it does in that round."

So even if I was able to use Saving Finale & still failed the 2nd re-roll I'd at least have 1 round to do something, right? I don't remember what happened afterward actually, but if it ever happens again I'll be ready.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Saving Finale can be cast as an immediate action. That means that it effectively interrupts the normal flow. So as soon as the Confusion spell was cast and your DD failed his throw, you could have ended your performance and immediately cast Saving Finale to allow a reroll.

The target of the spell is simply "one living creature". That means you can use it on any living creature. You're a living creature; therefore, you qualify as a target.

So assuming you had a performance going, and you had a slot with which you could cast Saving Finale, the round should have gone like this:

-Bad guy casts Confusion spell
-Bard fails Will save to avoid Confusion effects
-As an immediate action, before the Confusion spell takes hold, the Bard ends his performance and casts Saving Finale
-Bard gets to reroll the Will save for Confusion

Assuming that you had failed again, then Confusion would immediately take effect, and you'd be forced to roll at the start of your next turn.

If this somehow occurred in the middle of your turn, then I'm not certain that's covered by RAW, but the RAI of such an ability would lead me to think you'd immediately roll to see how you would act for the remainder of that turn, then again at the start of your next turn.


Hey Cuttler.

I think you've summed up the essence of the problem- this is all a question of timing. RAW for Immediate Actions:
"Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn."

My interpretation is that an Immediate Action is akin to an Instant effect from Magic the Gathering: last in, first out. So even though Saving Finale or Gallant Inspiration or Allegro would all be cast after a failed roll, as Immediate Actions they all affect the roll retroactively: they 'interrupt' the order & can possibly change what happens.

Does that interpretation make sense?


Xaratherus, read your response after I had finished replying to Cuttler.

I think we're on the same page.

Is there any spell/item/Feat/class ability that allows someone to do 2 Immediate Actions in a single round?


Not of which I'm immediately aware. Immediate actions are effectively swift action that you can perform outside of your own turn; like swift actions, they're highly limited because they're generally tied to potent spells and class abilities, and the limitation on the action type balances those abilities.


Makes sense & seems more than fair, although it seems like there's ALWAYS an exception to every rule when it comes to RPG's.

I was just trying to see if there was a way to a Saving Finale/Gallant Inspiration Combo for a save that you REALLY had to make.

Guess there's always Hero Points for that situation though.


Xaratherus wrote:

Saving Finale can be cast as an immediate action. That means that it effectively interrupts the normal flow. So as soon as the Confusion spell was cast and your DD failed his throw, you could have ended your performance and immediately cast Saving Finale to allow a reroll.

The target of the spell is simply "one living creature". That means you can use it on any living creature. You're a living creature; therefore, you qualify as a target.

So assuming you had a performance going, and you had a slot with which you could cast Saving Finale, the round should have gone like this:

-Bad guy casts Confusion spell
-Bard fails Will save to avoid Confusion effects
-As an immediate action, before the Confusion spell takes hold, the Bard ends his performance and casts Saving Finale
-Bard gets to reroll the Will save for Confusion

Yes. Immediate actions interrupt.


DrDeth wrote:
Immediate actions interrupt.

Gotya. I assume that an Immediate Action could interrupt another Immediate Action?

What about a Swift Action interrupting an Immediate Action?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
DrDeth wrote:
Immediate actions interrupt.

Thanks to "Magic the Gathering" interrupt has a very specific meaning, and swift/immediate actions don't interrupt the action flow in that specific way.

PRD wrote:

Swift Actions

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.

...

Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

Each immediate/swift action work as defined by the ability you are using.

Some are resolved before applying some effect, some have a retroactive effect (like Gallant inspiration, note how the spell go to great length s to say that it is applied retroactively, that wouldn't be needed if the immediate action automatically was capable to interrupt an action in the MtG sense of the term), others are resolved after something has happened, it all depend on the ability.

In the specific situation:
- Saving Finale would be applied after the saving throw was failed, but before the effects are applied (or it would be useless most of the time)
- Gallant Inspiration would be applied after the effect are resolved, but it can reverse them (The creature gains a +2d4 competence bonus to the attack roll or skill check retroactively. If the bonus is enough to turn the failure into a success, the roll succeeds.). Ti is limited to attack rolls and skill checks, not Saving throws.

Both can target the bard I think. Gallant Inspiration only because it is cast after the action is resolved as (barring specific exceptions for specific actions) you can't take a immediate while you are resolving a different action.

To make an example that I hope would clarify what I am trying to say:
it is not possible to throw your damage, say "my total damage is to low" and activate Arcane strike as an swift action to apply it to the attack you have already made.


Swift and Immediate are different action types.

Swift doesn't interrupt, because it's on your turn.

Immediate can interrupt. That's actually the point of the action type. Almost every case of an immediate action is to change an outcome, such as Stone Shield, where you interrupt an attack by increasing your AC.

Grand Lodge

Another issue with Saving Finale is how do you tell when a PC has failed a saving throw? Especially for delayed effects or for spells which nobody has identified with spellcraft, GMs are often coy about whether or not the spell has taken effect.

In PFS, I've had GMs rule that I can't cast saving finale because I don't know whether or not another PC has failed their save (for example against disease).


DungeonMastering.com wrote:


1) can Bards cast spells like Saving Finale & Gallant Inspiration on themselves- why or why not
2) if they can 'normally' cast these spells on themselves, can they still do so even after failing a Saving Throw that affects their mental faculties to the point where they wouldn't be able to cast spells- why or why not?
3) do you think a Bard casting this on themselves goes against the intention or spirit of the spell- why or why not?

1) Yes(assuming you are living), it says one living creature. Not one living creature other than yourself.

2) Yes, they are immediate actions, which effectively interrupt another action. Its like how AOO's interrupt another action, like spellcasting.

3) No.

Exocrat wrote:

Another issue with Saving Finale is how do you tell when a PC has failed a saving throw? Especially for delayed effects or for spells which nobody has identified with spellcraft, GMs are often coy about whether or not the spell has taken effect.

In PFS, I've had GMs rule that I can't cast saving finale because I don't know whether or not another PC has failed their save (for example against disease).

I don't think I'd rule it that way but I can see it.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Under A Bleeding Sun wrote:


2) Yes, they are immediate actions, which effectively interrupt another action. Its like how AOO's interrupt another action, like spellcasting.

An AoO interrupt as it say that it interrupt the normal flow of actions:

PRD wrote:
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).

Unless a spell/power/whatever say that it interrupt the normal flow of actions, it don't do that.

PRD wrote:

Immediate Actions

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

You see something about interrupting the flow of the actions in that text?

Some immediate actions interrupt the flow of the actions, but that is not a general rule.


Immediate actions state they can occur "at any time". That means if a person says that they're going to charge you, you could immediately say, "Actually, I'm casting Emergency Force Sphere right now, before you reach me."

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Xaratherus wrote:
Immediate actions state they can occur "at any time". That means if a person says that they're going to charge you, you could immediately say, "Actually, I'm casting Emergency Force Sphere right now, before you reach me."

Sure. But you aren't interrupting the action in the MtG sense of the term.

What I am trying to say is that (unless the immediate action you are using explicitly say that) you can't cast Emergency Force Sphere between after the attacker has made his attack but before he applies the damage.
A ability that interrupt in the MtG sense of the term can do that.

- * -

Seeing how Emergency Force Sphere work it would prohibit a charge.
A GM I would allow the attacker to change his target if able while still completing a charge. At the very least he would eb able to attack the Sphere.

- * -

To make a different example with Emergency Force Sphere, let's say you trigger a trap. The GM say something like: "Several spears are throw at you by a hidden mechanism". At that point you can cast the immediate spell. If you wait until the GM has rolled the to hit for each spear and say "3 spears hit you, one is a critical", it is to late to cast Emergency Force Sphere as its effect defend you before the hit is made.

We always need to look what the immediate action do and use some common sense in deciding if it can interrupt an action or not.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cuttler wrote:
First: there's nothing in the rules that prevent to use the spell on yourself.

Yes there is... the fact that a character is in a condition where he does not have control over his own actions. A lot of other conditions DO leave you in control, if impaired in one or more ways.

The DM was right in this PARTICULAR case, but not for the reason stated.

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

LazarX,

By your view, would the same would hold true for a spell like finger of death, where the bard would be rendered unable to cast the spell due to being dead (assuming the flat damage kills them)?

If so, doesn't that also prevent the bard from using the spell to save an ally targeted by finger of death? Saving finale only targets living creatures. If saving finale doesn't come into effect until after the triggering effect has finished resolving, then the ally is already dead when you cast the spell, and thus is beyond its help.

Similarly, if an ally gets hit with plane shift or dismissal, the bard wouldn't be able to use saving finale to prevent them from being sent away because the ally no longer in range, and thus not a legal target for the spell.

Those examples both feel wrong to me. I feel like this is one of those cases where its important to look at the spell holistically when trying to figure out what it does and how it's supposed to work. The intent seems to me to be to give a character a chance to avoid the effects of a failed save, which necessitates some level of interruption.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:
Immediate actions state they can occur "at any time". That means if a person says that they're going to charge you, you could immediately say, "Actually, I'm casting Emergency Force Sphere right now, before you reach me."

Sure. But you aren't interrupting the action in the MtG sense of the term.

What I am trying to say is that (unless the immediate action you are using explicitly say that) you can't cast Emergency Force Sphere between after the attacker has made his attack but before he applies the damage.
A ability that interrupt in the MtG sense of the term can do that.

- * -

Seeing how Emergency Force Sphere work it would prohibit a charge.
A GM I would allow the attacker to change his target if able while still completing a charge. At the very least he would eb able to attack the Sphere.

- * -

To make a different example with Emergency Force Sphere, let's say you trigger a trap. The GM say something like: "Several spears are throw at you by a hidden mechanism". At that point you can cast the immediate spell. If you wait until the GM has rolled the to hit for each spear and say "3 spears hit you, one is a critical", it is to late to cast Emergency Force Sphere as its effect defend you before the hit is made.

We always need to look what the immediate action do and use some common sense in deciding if it can interrupt an action or not.

Couldn't you use your immediate action 'just before' you are about to be hit? That is ‘a time’ of which ‘any time’ encompasses, no?


Okay, example #1: Timely Inspiration.

Quote:
A word of arcane-empowered inspiration can snatch victory from seeming defeat. Cast this spell when a creature fails an attack roll or skill check. The target gains a +1 competence bonus per five caster levels (maximum +3 bonus) on the attack roll or skill check retroactively. If the bonus is enough to make the failure a success, the roll succeeds.

Note that this applies "when a creature fails". So you have already rolled, you know the outcome of the attack, then you use the spell and it applies retroactively.

So, let's compare:

Quote:
You must have a bardic performance in effect to cast this spell. With a flourish, you can immediately end your bardic performance when a creature within range affected by your bardic performance fails a saving throw, allowing the subject to immediately reroll the failed saving throw.

It doesn't explicitly say "retroactively", but it's important to note: This is not saying "grants you a new save against an ability currently affecting you". It allows you to "reroll the failed saving throw". That means this goes off before the effects of the failed save are determined.

Pretty sure that, RAI, it is clearly allowed to be an interrupt in the sense of "you can use it on yourself, after failing a save, even if you could not possibly do anything if you had failed that save". And honestly, I think that's at the very least consistent with RAW, even though it isn't as explicit as I'd like.


LazarX wrote:
Cuttler wrote:
First: there's nothing in the rules that prevent to use the spell on yourself.

Yes there is... the fact that a character is in a condition where he does not have control over his own actions. A lot of other conditions DO leave you in control, if impaired in one or more ways.

The DM was right in this PARTICULAR case, but not for the reason stated.

This is wrong.

As an immediate action you would trigger this spell during the determine success step of confusion. It can be triggered at any time. You must simply use it when the save failed but before the effect is applied.

"With a flourish, you can immediately end your bardic performance when a creature within range affected by your bardic performance fails a Saving Throw, allowing the subject to immediately reroll the failed Saving Throw."

The spell even outlines for us exactly when it is to be used. "When a creature within range fails a saving throw" is the moment the spell takes effect. It then has the effect of "immediately reroll the failed Saving Throw".

So... this all happens before the effect of the confusion spell sets in.

Additionally, even if the effect has been applied, you could still activate this or any other immediate action before your first turn after being affected by confusion. The effect of confusion only begins on your turn. Not that this matters in this case. But it is an interesting side note.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Remy Balster wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:
Immediate actions state they can occur "at any time". That means if a person says that they're going to charge you, you could immediately say, "Actually, I'm casting Emergency Force Sphere right now, before you reach me."

Sure. But you aren't interrupting the action in the MtG sense of the term.

What I am trying to say is that (unless the immediate action you are using explicitly say that) you can't cast Emergency Force Sphere between after the attacker has made his attack but before he applies the damage.
A ability that interrupt in the MtG sense of the term can do that.

- * -

Seeing how Emergency Force Sphere work it would prohibit a charge.
A GM I would allow the attacker to change his target if able while still completing a charge. At the very least he would eb able to attack the Sphere.

- * -

To make a different example with Emergency Force Sphere, let's say you trigger a trap. The GM say something like: "Several spears are throw at you by a hidden mechanism". At that point you can cast the immediate spell. If you wait until the GM has rolled the to hit for each spear and say "3 spears hit you, one is a critical", it is to late to cast Emergency Force Sphere as its effect defend you before the hit is made.

We always need to look what the immediate action do and use some common sense in deciding if it can interrupt an action or not.

Couldn't you use your immediate action 'just before' you are about to be hit? That is ‘a time’ of which ‘any time’ encompasses, no?

Yes, but "'just before' you are about to be hit" is "before the GM roll the to hit dice".

And the example Emergency Force Sphere create a bubble with a 5' radius around you. If you wait till the GM roll the dices the attacker has moved within that radius.


Bards can play any way you want them too. The confusion roll is on your turn. Immediate spells are made for such a situation. Its meta-game yeah but inbuilt into the system so the designers are pro-meta-game the DM may as well be too.

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