Amulet of Mighty fist+Potion vs Damage reduction


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Ok i did a quick search of the various Amulet of Might Fists threads and nothing jumped out at me as answering this question.

So +3 or higher enhancement bonus overcomes Cold Iron/Silver DR. Check.

A +3 amulet of might fists would also overcome Cold Iron/Silver DR. Check.

If, i had a +2 enhancement bonus on an amulet of might fists, but took a special ability ...say holy

and then drink a Potion of Magic Fang +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage

Do i suddenly overcome cold iron/silver.

The effects would stack, no doubt of that, but do they stack for overcoming DR?

Cant find any thread or ruling on this.

Sczarni

I don't believe enhancement bonuses stack. So your +2 AoMF would stay as a +2 due to Magic Fang not stacking.

Though, if I am incorrect and they do stack, you would be at an effective +3 and would bypass Cold Iron/Silver.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Liberty's Edge

Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

I don't believe enhancement bonuses stack. So your +2 AoMF would stay as a +2 due to Magic Fang not stacking.

Though, if I am incorrect and they do stack, you would be at an effective +3 and would bypass Cold Iron/Silver.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

see if we were just talking about enhancement bonus i would 100% agree with you but we are not

DR Type Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent
Cold iron / silver +3
Adamantine* +4
Alignment-based +5

so i get holy, from one source, which is a +2 equivalent bonus and +1 enhancement bonus, equivalent +1, from a different source

I have no doubt that the claws or whatever would be +1 to hit and damage + holy, because the amulet of might fist specifically stats it does not need the +1 to function. the question is does the combo effect overcome the DR since its the Equivalent bonus we are talking about. I simply dont know.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
PRD wrote:


Amulet of Mighty Fists
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

...

Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls

...

Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack.

What is the source of the bonus don't matter. What matter is that they are both "enhancement bonus" to "natural weapon or unarmed strike ". So, as written int eh last peice cited, they don't stack.

Liberty's Edge

Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:


Amulet of Mighty Fists
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

...

Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls

...

Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack.

What is the source of the bonus don't matter. What matter is that they are both "enhancement bonus" to "natural weapon or unarmed strike ". So, as written int eh last peice cited, they don't stack.

Your comment on the amulet of might fists is incomplete

read on
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.


If you have an amulet of mighty fists +2and then used OIL of magic fang on your left fist your attacks would be either +2 or +1 but not both. the magic fang enhancement would over-lap the AMF and pressumably you would use the higher ability. It would not turn your attacks into +3.

basically, if you just had a holy amulet of mighty fists and used an oil of magic fang you would then have +1 holy when using one natural attack. This works because there is no enhancement bonus yet.

If you have +2 holy AMF it will just use the better enhancement bonus between +1 or +2 and the holy would appply. It would not make a +3 holy amf.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
neferphras wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
PRD wrote:


Amulet of Mighty Fists
This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

...

Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls

...

Stacking: Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack.

What is the source of the bonus don't matter. What matter is that they are both "enhancement bonus" to "natural weapon or unarmed strike ". So, as written int eh last peice cited, they don't stack.

Your comment on the amulet of might fists is incomplete

read on
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.

And where that make any difference? You are trying to add an enhancement bonus to an enhancement bonus, not an enhancement bonus to a special ability.

- * -

Re-reading your first post, probably you are trying to say that you took only a special ability with a +2 cost and then you drank potion of magic fang. The problem is that you are mixing terms with different meaning.

The enhancements are the +1, +2 an d so on bonus to attack and damage.
Abilities as holy are called special abilities.

A special ability don't count in any way when trying to overcome DR. Only the actual enhancement, i.e. the +1 you get from magic fang.

So, rewriting what you wrote with that in mind:

neferphras redone wrote:

Ok i did a quick search of the various Amulet of Might Fists threads and nothing jumped out at me as answering this question.

So +3 or higher enhancement bonus overcomes Cold Iron/Silver DR. Check.

A amulet of might fists with a +3 enhancement would also overcome Cold Iron/Silver DR. Check.

If, i had a an amulet of might fists with a +2 equivalent bonus, but took a special ability ...say holy

and then drink a Potion of Magic Fang +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage

Do i suddenly overcome cold iron/silver?

The effects would stack, no doubt of that,giving my unarmed attacks a bonus of +1 holy but do they stack for overcoming DR?

Cant find any thread or ruling on this.

With that combo you would overcome:

DR/Magic
DR/good

without the potion you would overcome only DR/good as your attack isn't magical without the +1 enhancement.

Liberty's Edge

no i was never suggesting it would make it a +3 holy, ever said that

So oil give you +1 attack and damage
Amulet give you Holy

so your natural attack are now +1 attack and damage and holy

got that good. Not arguing that

The question is for the wonky equivalent bonus chart combined is it a +3 because we are talking about an EQUIVALENT bonus

your strikes are, for sure, +1 and holy. which is the equivalent of +3 per the chart. But does the fact 2 of that equivalent is from one source an 1 from another make it a +2 on that chart or +3

using the Alternative statement in the AMF give you the special quality with ZERO enhancement bonus. That the point of that paragraph.

A Holy AMF does NOT penetrate magic dr at all because it has no enhancement bonus.

Thats why this question is tricky, if everything was an enhancement bonus this is a no brainier but that is not the case.

Liberty's Edge

A special ability don't count in any way when trying to overcome DR. Only the actual enhancement, i.e. the +1 you get from magic fang.

that is actually false

look it up. A +1 holy weapon counts as a +3 on that chart. thats why it say 'equivalant'

Liberty's Edge

Here is the relevant FAQ quote

Weapon Bonuses: Can weapon special abilities (such as bane) or class abilities (such as a paladin's divine bond) allow you to exceed the +5 enhancement bonus limit and the +10 bonus-equivalent limitation?
For the enhancement bonus limitation, it depends on the specific effect or ability that's altering the weapon.

Bane: This allows the weapon to exceed the +5 limit, but only against the designated creature type. For example, a +5 dragon-bane longsword is normally a +5 weapon, but has a +7 enhancement bonus against dragons and deals +2d6 points of damage against dragons.

Paladin: The divine bond ability says "These [enhancement] bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5." That means if a paladin has a +5 longsword, she can't use her divine bond to increase the enhancement bonus to +6 or higher (but she could use her bonuses to add abilities such as flaming to the weapon).

The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13

So the chart for DR specifically stats its using the EQUIVALENT bonus.

+1 holy slices through cold iron like butter. the questions is, does it still do that the equivalent values are coming from different sources.

Liberty's Edge

btw, for my 2 cents on the answer, i would say no, the highest equivalent bonus is what is applied to the chart.

so while you get the holy from the amulet
and the +1 and hit from the potion

only the +2 equivalent bonus from the amulet special ability is used.

But the FAQ actually trends toward the opposite answer and no where does it say that equivalent bonus that are not alike do not stack for that chart.


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Your AoMF has Holy Enchantment. It is good aligned, but not magic. You use an Oil of Magic Weapon. Your weapon (Unarmed Strike) gains a +1 enhancement bonus, and allows it to overcome magic or hit incorporeal creatures. You are effectively wielding a +1 Holy Unarmed Strike for the duration of the potion. That's all correct.

Your weapon DOES NOT count as a +3 for overcoming DR. Holy is a +2 enchantment for terms of weapon pricing and the max enchantment that can be placed on the item. Only straight up enhancement bonuses count to overcome DR. So you would need a +3 Holy weapon to strike through cold iron DR, although, you would be able to bypass cold iron AND good with the combo - effective against demons. But a +3 Holy weapon still counts as a +5 in terms of purchase cost and maximum enhancement.

Note that Greater Magic Weapon will never allow you to overcome more than magic DR, though, even at high levels. That, and the high cost of the AoMF, are the main reason that monks have so much trouble with DR in the first place. They revised the Ki Pool just because of it, but it is still a fact of life that monks will have issues getting through DR with their unarmed strikes. If you have no backup weapon for striking, try switching to combat maneuvers at that point (those work great).

Liberty's Edge

flaming duck, ok so err... back that up. The DR chart CLEARLY and i mean very very clearly says equivalent bonus. FAQ talks directly to equivalent bonus and how it applies. So where are you getting this from.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
neferphras wrote:
flaming duck, ok so err... back that up. The DR chart CLEARLY and i mean very very clearly says equivalent bonus. FAQ talks directly to equivalent bonus and how it applies. So where are you getting this from.

The "equivalent" refers to the special material it is equivalent to. The text reads:

Quote:
Weapons with an enhancement bonus of +3 or greater can ignore some types of damage reduction, regardless of their actual material or alignment. The following table shows what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.

A +1 Holy weapon does not have a +3 enhancement bonus; it's just priced like one.


People are mixing their arguments very weirdly.

You have a Holy AoMF. Vs Evil creatures it is just an AoMF with +2d6 damage vs Evil.

You use an Oil of Magic Fang. Your fists are now +1 Holy, basically.

They are +1 fists that have the ability (from the AoMF) to bypass DR/Good and deal 2d6 extra damage vs evil creatures.

However, your fists will never overcome DR/Cold Iron and Silver.

With the exception of DR/Epic, you need a NUMERICAL bonus to overcome material and aligned damage reduction. Special abilities do not count towards this.

Yes, the table says "Equivalent Bonus" but that's not the full context.

It lists the material, and then states the bonus that is equivalent to having that material. It at no point says "a +X equivalent bonus overcomes DR", it says "A +X bonus overcome DR" and then gives specific numbers.


Bizbag wrote:
neferphras wrote:
flaming duck, ok so err... back that up. The DR chart CLEARLY and i mean very very clearly says equivalent bonus. FAQ talks directly to equivalent bonus and how it applies. So where are you getting this from.
The "equivalent" refers to the special material it is equivalent to.

^ This.

Yes, the wording for the chart heading is poorly chosen, and confusing.

"Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5"

"A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10

The chart you're looking at says "Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent" for DR, yes. But it's not talking about special ability bonus equivalents. It's talking about pure enhancement bonuses, and what sort of damage reduction they are equivalent to.

Two different things that are easy to confuse (and not just for players). Whoever wrote that FAQ left out "special ability" in a couple of places, and it just made for more confusion.


Per the FAQ:

Amulet of Mighty Fists: Does this allow a creature's natural attacks to bypass damage reduction if the enhancement bonus is high enough (as noted on page 562)?

Yes. If the amulet grants at least a +3 enhancement bonus it allows a creature's natural attacks to bypass cold iron and silver damage reduction. If it is +4, it allows them to bypass adamantine damage reduction (although not hardness), and if it is +5, it allows them to bypass alignment-based damage reduction.

—Jason Bulmahn, 11/30/12

So, let's make this very simple:

If you take a +2 Amulet of Mighty fists, and then add another enhancement to it (not another +1 to make it +3, but a +2 and say bane or whatever), do you get the benefits explained in the FAQ of a +3 enhancement bonus?

An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.

As a result, if the other bonuses don't count then the amulet will never provide alignment-based damage reduction. Perhaps that's a trade off that is supposed to happen. It's not entirely clear.


Moondragon Starshadow wrote:


So, let's make this very simple:

If you take a +2 Amulet of Mighty fists, and then add another enhancement to it (not another +1 to make it +3, but a +2 and say bane or whatever), do you get the benefits explained in the FAQ of a +3 enhancement bonus?

Example 1: Amulet of Mighty Fists (+2 enhancement Bonus) (+Bane: Dragons) [Modified Bonus = +3]

Strike Orc: +2 - No DR Equivalent
Strike Dragon: +4 - overcomes DR cold iron / silver / adamantine

Example 2: Amulet of Mighty Fists (+0 enhancement bonus) (+Furyborn) [Modified Bonus = +2]

Strike 1: +0 - No DR Equivalent
Strike 2: +1 - No DR Equivalent
Srtike 3: +2 - No DR Equivalent
Strike 4: +3 - overcomes DR cold iron / silver
Strike 5: +4 - overcomes DR cold iron / silver / adamantine
Strike 6: +5 - overcomes DR cold iron / silver / adamantine / alignment

Example 3: Amulet of Mighty Fists (+2 enhancement bonus) (+Speed) [Modified Bonus = +5]

Strike: +2 - No DR Equivalent


I think I identified the ops confusion. To get the ability to overcome Dr as a +3 weapon you need a weapon enchantment combination that actually adds +3 to hit and damage.

So this means your +2 holy amf is treated as a +2 weapon in all respects. Using oil of magic fang doesn't change this.

If it were +2 evil bane vs the bane target it would be +3 though.


Just down from here is the table to which OP is referring.

When the table's header says "Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent", it's referencing that the listed weapon enhancement bonus is equivalent to a weapon made of the material (or with the specific DR-bypassing qualities) listed in the left-hand column. It is not referring to enhancement-bonus equivalent special abilities like Holy.


neferphras wrote:
flaming duck, ok so err... back that up. The DR chart CLEARLY and i mean very very clearly says equivalent bonus. FAQ talks directly to equivalent bonus and how it applies. So where are you getting this from.

The others are correct - the chart is showing equivalences between the Enhancement bonus and materials, not the Equivalent Enhancement bonus. This has been verified over and over again, and the FAQ you quoted actually says it explicitly:

A +5 Bane weapon counts as +7 vs. it's bane target. That's due to the +2 enhancement bonus that bane provides. Otherwise it would count as +6 or +8 'equivalently'.


Xaratherus wrote:

Just down from here is the table to which OP is referring.

When the table's header says "Weapon Enhancement Bonus Equivalent", it's referencing that the listed weapon enhancement bonus is equivalent to a weapon made of the material (or with the specific DR-bypassing qualities) listed in the left-hand column. It is not referring to enhancement-bonus equivalent special abilities like Holy.

Oh, that's interesting. Well, guess that clears it up.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Just to add another voice of confirmation:

FAQ wrote:

Weapon Bonuses: Can weapon special abilities (such as bane) or class abilities (such as a paladin's divine bond) allow you to exceed the +5 enhancement bonus limit and the +10 bonus-equivalent limitation?

For the enhancement bonus limitation, it depends on the specific effect or ability that's altering the weapon.

Bane: This allows the weapon to exceed the +5 limit, but only against the designated creature type. For example, a +5 dragon-bane longsword is normally a +5 weapon, but has a +7 enhancement bonus against dragons and deals +2d6 points of damage against dragons.

Paladin: The divine bond ability says "These [enhancement] bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5." That means if a paladin has a +5 longsword, she can't use her divine bond to increase the enhancement bonus to +6 or higher (but she could use her bonuses to add abilities such as flaming to the weapon).

The +10 bonus-equivalent limitation is a hard cap for all weapons; you can't exceed that even with class abilities or other unusual abilities.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13

The OP is not the first person to get confused over this exact same issue. It stems from not being around for the debates that spurned these FAQs, so some context is lost in reading them.

Neferphras, normally the "hard cap" enhancement bonus for weapons is +5. Bane (and a couple of other enchantments), can cause a weapon to become +6 or higher (but Holy is not one of them).

Imagine you had a +5 Dragon Bane Longsword. It cost the equivalent of a +6 weapon to purchase, but only counts as a +5 weapon for purposes of overcoming Damage Reduction.

Now, let's say you're scheduled to fight an Epic Giant and an Epic Dragon in an arena. Overcoming DR/Epic requires a +6 weapon.

Against the Giant, your Longsword only functions as a +5 weapon, and does not overcome the Giant's DR.

But when it comes time to fight the Dragon, you bypass its Epic DR, since your Longsword functions as a +7 weapon against it.

That is what the FAQ you quoted is referring to. It is not a blanket statement representing ALL special abilities, just those that increase the enhancement bonus of a weapon (like Bane).

Hope that helps.

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