As a long-time RPG'er (both player and DM) but relatively new to PF, I find myself completely overwhelmed by the OVER 1500 spells (!) listed in the PF spell "database"/spreadsheet.
I'd like to get that down to a more manageable number, focusing on
1. The most useful spells (melee AND non-melee), with the melee spells being a good mix of damage, buff, de-buff, battlefield control, etc. And by "most useful" I mean the most effect for the spell's level.
2. Spells that I'd want to use most as either player OR DM (for my bad-guy casters).
3. Spells that preferably come from the core rules.
So below is a list of spells that I think fit these criteria. This is down to a "mere" 243 Sorcerer/Wizard spells, as opposed to PF's 907(!). I'm going to do the same thing for Cleric/Oracle spells later on.
So I have two questions for everyone :
1. Is there any spell NOT on the list below that you think is *essential*? Not a spell that saved your party ONCE, or whose concept you think is really really cool, but a spell that has consistently come up in play and been very helpful (for the players or the DM's bad guys). Please suggest non-core spells only if you think they're really really useful.
If you just give a list of the names of spells you want added, I will tally the number of times that spell has been mentioned by others, and if enough people like it, I'll add it to the list.
So please, list the spells you'd like to see added even if they've already been listed by someone else!
But if you give a reason/explanation/example as to why you think the spell you're suggesting should be in the list, that by itself may convince me to add it.
2. Is there any spell in the list below that you think is just wasting space? Something so useless in practice that you'd never, ever, include that spell in your list of known or memorized spells again, or bother using against your players as a DM.
Same thing applies here - you can just list the spell name (please repeat!) or give a reason.
I will re-print the final list once everyone's voted. Thanks!
Zero Level
Daze
Detect Magic
Ghost Sound
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Prestidigitation
Read Magic
First Level
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Color Spray
Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Endure Elements
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Floating Disk
Grease
Hold Portal
Identify
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Magic Weapon
Obscuring Mist
Protection from Evil/Chaos/Good/Law
Reduce Person
Shield
Silent Image
Sleep
Summon Monster I
Unseen Servant
Vanish
Second Level
Acid Arrow
Alter Self
Bear's Endurance
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Create Pit
Darkness
Darkvision
Defensive Shock
Detect Thoughts
Eagle's Splendor
Flaming Sphere
Fog Cloud
Fox's Cunning
Glitterdust
Gust of Wind
Hideous Laughter
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Locate Object
Minor Image
Mirror Image
Obscure Object
Owl's Wisdom
Protection from Arrows
Protection From Evil/Chaos/Good/Law, Communal
Pyrotechnics
Resist Energy
Rope Trick
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Spectral Hand
Spider Climb
Summon Monster II
Summon Swarm
Web
Third Level
Clairaudience/voyance
Darkvision, Communal
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Displacement
Explosive Runes
Fireball
Fly
Gaseous Form
Gentle Repose
Halt Undead
Haste
Hold Person
Invisibility Sphere
Keen Edge
Lightning Bolt
Magic Circle against Evil/Chaos/Good/Law
Magic Weapon, Greater
Major Image
Nondetection
Protection from Arrows, Communal
Protection from Energy
Resist Energy, Communal
Shrink Item
Sleet Storm
Slow
Stinking Cloud
Suggestion
Summon Monster III
Tiny Hut
Tongues
Vampiric Touch
Water Breathing
Wind Wall
Fourth Level
Arcane Eye
Bestow Curse
Black Tentacles
Charm Monster
Confusion
Detect Scrying
Dimensional Anchor
Dimension Door
Enervation
Fear
Geas, Lesser
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser
Hallucinatory Terrain
Ice Storm
Illusory Wall
Invisibility, Greater
Locate Creature
Protection from Energy, Communal
Remove Curse
Resilient Sphere
Scrying
Solid Fog
Stone Shape
Stoneskin
Summon Monster IV
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice
Fifth Level
Baleful Polymorph
Break Enchantment
Cloudkill
Cone of Cold
Dismissal
Dominate Person
False Vision
Feeblemind
Magic Jar (overpowered)
Overland Flight
Permanency
Persistent Image
Planar Binding, Lesser
Polymorph
Seeming
Sending
Summon Monster V
Telekinesis
Telepathic Bond
Teleport
Transmute Mud to Rock
Transmute Rock to Mud
Wall of Force
Wall of Stone
Sixth Level
Acid Fog
Analyze Dweomer
Antimagic Field
Chain Lightning
Circle of Death
Contingency
Disintegrate
Dispel Magic, Greater
Flesh to Stone
Forceful Hand
Geas/Quest
Globe of Invulnerability
Guards and Wards
Permanent Image
Planar Binding
Programmed Image
Repulsion
Shadow Walk
Stone to Flesh
Suggestion, Mass
Summon Monster VI
True Seeing
Veil
Seventh Level
Arcane Sight, Greater
Banishment
Control Undead
Etherial Jaunt
Finger of Death
Forcecage
Grasping Hand
Limited Wish
Mage's Sword
Phase Door
Plane Shift
Polymorph, Greater
Project Image
Reverse Gravity
Scrying, Greater
Sequester
Spell Turning
Summon Monster VII
Teleport, Greater
Vision
Waves of Exhaustion
Eighth Level
Binding
Charm Monster, Mass
Clenched Fist
Clone
Dimensional Lock
Discern Location
Horrid Wilting
Irresitible Dance
Maze
Mind Blank
Moment of Prescience
Planar Binding, Greater
Polymorph Any Object
Prismatic Wall
Protection from Spells
Screen
Sunburst
Summon Monster VIII
Trap the Soul
Ninth Level
Astral Projection
Energy Drain
Foresight
Freedom
Gate
Mage's Disjunction
Prismatic Sphere
Shapechange
Soul Bind
Summon Monster IX
Teleportation Circle
Time Stop
Wish
Are you trying to Cut Down on the number of spells the players in your game can have or is this the spells your wizard want in his book?
This is just the list *I* want to focus on, when I'm picking spells for my PC Wizard, or for my BBEG Wizard. The players would have access to whatever spells they want.
Hopefully tho, if a newbie player is also overwhelmed by picking spells for his first Wizard, I could give them this list and say "pick from these and you can't go too wrong". Or newbie players who find this thread.
Now I'm just curious why you ask - would it make a difference to you?
I think the must have is different if it is my sorcerer must have these spells on his known list. Or it is my campaign must have these spells in the game World. A Spell like ligthning bolt is not on the first but it could be on the second depending on the World.
Ok thanks - just to be clear, technically this list isn't either of the options you listed.
This isn't a list of the only spells that a Sorc/Wiz can have in their known lists, but a short list of the "best" spells to choose from when creating spell lists. If a player wants to pick other core or APG spells (etc.), that's fine.
So neither is it the entire list of spells available in the game.
So are you saying that you'd *never* pick Lighting Bolt for a Sorc/Wiz, and that it should be removed from the list?
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This is a short list?
Further to previous -- you're a little inconsistent in your criteria.
On the one hand, you want to add spells to the list if it "has consistently come up in play and been very helpful (for the players or the DM's bad guys)." You also want to remove a spell only if it is "so useless in practice that you'd never, ever, include that spell in your list of known or memorized spells again."
Most of the spells on that list -- that overly long list, IMHO -- are situational. I'd include it on my memorized spells I had a reason to, but only if I had a reason to.
Just looking at the 0th level:
Daze
Detect Magic
Ghost Sound
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Prestidigitation
Read Magic
The ones that I consider essential are Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Light, and Detect Magic. Mending, for instance, is useful but worth memorizing tomorrow if and only if something breaks. Even Read Magic I can probably memorize tomorrow -- and only one person in the party typically needs Light.
I definitely don't think that Veil is a must have, but to each their own.
However, if I might put in one or two of my must haves, I like using Major Curse whenever possible. Plus, if you're not the only spellcaster in the party, Battlemind Link is quite useful as well.
I think you forgot Flesh to Ooze at 6th level. Mixes great with Flesh to Stone.
For a shorter list, I will give my vote to spiked.....I mean black tentacles. As far as I understand it (and admittedly, I do not really go for full casters) it is something of a win button when the BBEG is another sorcerer/wizard and you have a higher initiative. Or at least enough of a distraction to delay them while your melee characters mop up their bodyguards before they can summon up more meatshields. This kind of thing actually made me consider making a tattooed sorcerer once I gain more tactical experience.
True Strike is a must-have for me. The fact you can use it for maneuvers as well as straight attacks makes it incredibly versatile. Combine it with vanish or invisibility, and you can make some encounter-ending disarms, steals or trips.
Well, even so, the Prying Eyes spells are set up as to not let you know immediately. I see it more like securing a fort or a crime scene, but in the former case, you still wouldn't know why some eyes don't return.
Sorry I couldn't respond quickly (that pesky job just keeps getting in the way of my RPG fun!), but :
Orfamay, this is NOT a list of what you should have memorized, it is a list to pick your known/available spells FROM. So yes, Mending is on the list as something that some Sorc/Wiz's might want to have (unless many other people agree that they've really never ever used it or needed it in practice).
Orfamay and Philippe, it's still relatively long because there's many roles a Sorc/Wiz can perform, from blaster to buffer to divinator to de-buffer, etc. So spells from each "category" are included so that the player can pick what kind of role they want to be. If every spell level had just 4 spells in it, that would make every Sorc/Wiz the same.
However, I do think 243 spells is still a bit much, which is why I'm asking the community for what spells in that list they find aren't as useful as they might sound. What spells in the list would you never use, under any conditions?
Thanks for the votes/feedback so far, please keep it coming!
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As far as 0-level spells, a wizard gets all of them at first level, so you don't need to include them (Sorcerers, as second-class citizens, don't really deserve good spells, so they can have, uh, drench, breeze, scoop, and root. And they can like it). As far as other spells...I'm not going to argue about what should be left off the list, because everyone's different; here's what I'd include that you didn't:
First level
Ant haul
Illusion of calm
Ray of enfeeblement
Second level
Blood transcription
Pilfering hand
Stone call
Touch of idiocy
Third level
Arcane sight
Ray of exhaustion
Fourth level
Acid pit
Emergency force sphere
Obsidian flow
Wandering star motes
Fifth level
Contact other plane
Mind fog
Sixth level
Cold ice strike
Legend lore
Sirocco
Seventh level
Firebrand
Hungry darkness
Eighth level
Incendiary cloud
Prediction of failure
Ninth level
Fiery body
Icy prison, mass
Spellbane
Suffocation, mass
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There was a poll thread a little more than one year ago about low level spells. You can find it here (complete with results of 216 votes)
Sorry I couldn't respond quickly (that pesky job just keeps getting in the way of my RPG fun!), but :
Orfamay, this is NOT a list of what you should have memorized, it is a list to pick your known/available spells FROM. So yes, Mending is on the list as something that some Sorc/Wiz's might want to have (unless many other people agree that they've really never ever used it or needed it in practice).
Yeah, but I can't imagine any Sorc actually wanting Mending on his list of spells known.
If your idea is `I could give them this list and say "pick from these and you can't go too wrong".', then I think you've already missed, because at least 2/3 of the list is unconditionally a wrong spell for a sorcerer.
However, I do think 243 spells is still a bit much, which is why I'm asking the community for what spells in that list they find aren't as useful as they might sound. What spells in the list would you never use, under any conditions?
Which is, again, the wrong criterion. If you're looking for "gotta have" spells, then you want "gotta have" spells, not spells that "I've used once in thirty years of play, so there's a condition under which I'd use it." You want spells that you will use daily, not "under some imaginable condition."
I would emphasize that my "essential" list would not be the same for a sorcerer and a wizard, it'd be quite different for both. For one thing I would not waste a sorcerer's known slots on spells that would only be cast once in a blue moon.
But if you're picking "gotta have" spells, you wouldn't waste pages of a wizard's spell book on them, either. That's what scrolls are for, bluntly.
Broadly speaking, there's a huge range between "spells I `gotta have'" and "spells I would `never, ever, include that spell in your list of known or memorized spells again'."
A lot of these "essential" spells seem less essential, and more iconic. Fireball & Lightning Bolt, for example. A caster doesn't really need direct damage spells, and they certainly don't need two of the same spell level.
I'm not sure if this thread is worth saving, as most everybody seems to have missed the point I'm asking for. I'm wanting a list of spells that I can quickly build either a Sorcerer or a Wizard from, either for a PC (as a player) or a BBEG (as a DM). But I don't want to have to pick from PF's 900+ spells. So I'm asking if the OP list is a reasonably good mix of useful spells for a broad range of caster roles (blaster, buffer, etc.). Any one caster would obviously not know all the spells listed for each level, they would know a few from each level based on their role.
And since even the OP list is still quite large, are there any spells in the list that really aren't that useful, and could be dropped?
-Deathspot, thanks for the extra spells, I will consider them.
-Black Raven, thanks for the URL, I'll check it out.
-Squirrel Dude, some monsters are more susceptible to fire than lightning, and vice-versa. And again, I'm not saying that any one spellcaster would have to have both spells in their build because they're both in the list, but that both spells should be available for consideration when building a caster.
-The rest : thanks for your suggestions for both spells to add and spells to drop.
Orfamay, instead of continually criticizing, why don't you post those spells you would consider "spells I gotta have", please and thank you? Take my list and rip out all unessential spells. Anything missing that you gotta have? - add them in! But please don't just focus on Sorcerers!
...Sorcerers, as second-class citizens, don't really deserve good spells, so they can have, uh, drench...
*sticks out his tongue*
Drench in desert settings can mean the difference between an environmental TPK and making it back to civilization. :)
Yeah, but I can't imagine any Sorc actually wanting Mending on his list of spells known.
Pretty vital for my current sorcerer/monk...craft: Bone, won't use metal weapons...splintering weapon feat. It's situational, yes. After each combat.
For most sorcerers though..yeah, Mending is hedge-wizard frippery.
Wizards have the luxury of knowing more spells. It's a fool of a wizard who doesn't take advantage of that fact.
But it's a bigger fool who believes that all of the spells in his book are essential. That's why, for example, a travelling spell book usually holds fewer spells.
I'm not sure if this thread is worth saving, as most everybody seems to have missed the point I'm asking for. I'm wanting a list of spells that I can quickly build either a Sorcerer or a Wizard from, either for a PC (as a player) or a BBEG (as a DM). But I don't want to have to pick from PF's 900+ spells. So I'm asking if the OP list is a reasonably good mix of useful spells for a broad range of caster roles (blaster, buffer, etc.).
No. It's a rather meh mix of useful, semi-useful, and situationally useful spells.
And since even the OP list is still quite large, are there any spells in the list that really aren't that useful, and could be dropped?
Most of them don't qualify as "gotta have."
Orfamay, instead of continually criticizing, why don't you post those spells you would consider "spells I gotta have", please and thank you? Take my list and rip out all unessential spells.
Happy to. But I want to make sure we are on roughly the same page about what "unessential" means. Even most of what I left in is probably situational, wouldn't make "every day" memorization for a wizard, and wouldn't be on a sorcerer's list of known spells at all.
Here's up to third level:
Zero Level
Daze
Detect Magic
Ghost Sound
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Prestidigitation
Read MagicFirst Level
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Color Spray at low levels only
Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Endure Elements
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Floating Disk
Grease
Hold Portal
Identify
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Magic Weapon
Obscuring Mist
Protection from Evil/Chaos/Good/Law
Reduce Person
Shield
Silent Image
Sleep at low levels only
Summon Monster I
Unseen Servant
VanishSecond Level
Acid Arrow
Alter Self
Bear's Endurance
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Bull's Strength
Cat's Grace
Create Pit
Darkness
Darkvision
Defensive Shock
Detect Thoughts
Eagle's Splendor
Flaming Sphere
Fog Cloud
Fox's Cunning
Glitterdust
Gust of Wind
Hideous Laughter
Invisibility
Knock
Levitate
Locate Object
Minor Image
Mirror Image
Obscure Object
Owl's Wisdom
Protection from Arrows
Protection From Evil/Chaos/Good/Law, Communal
Pyrotechnics
Resist Energy
Rope Trick
Scorching Ray
See Invisibility
Spectral Hand
Spider Climb
Summon Monster II
Summon Swarm
WebThird Level
Clairaudience/voyance
Darkvision, Communal
Daylight
Dispel Magic
Displacement
Explosive Runes
Fireball if not Lightning Bolt
Fly
Gaseous Form
Gentle Repose
Halt Undead
Haste
Hold Person
Invisibility Sphere
Keen Edge
Lightning Bolt if not Fireball
Magic Circle against Evil/Chaos/Good/Law
Magic Weapon, Greater
Major Image
Nondetection
Protection from Arrows, Communal
Protection from Energy
Resist Energy, Communal
Shrink Item
Sleet Storm
Slow
Stinking Cloud
Suggestion
Summon Monster III
Tiny Hut
Tongues
Vampiric Touch
Water Breathing
Wind Wall
I have never seen these used in PF
daze
floating disk
identify
defensive shock
telepathic bond
false vision
You could use some adjustment in your criteria.
There are many spells that I think almost any wizard should have in his spell book, but almost never will any sorcerer have on his spells known list.
I'm not sure if this thread is worth saving, as most everybody seems to have missed the point I'm asking for. I'm wanting a list of spells that I can quickly build either a Sorcerer or a Wizard from, either for a PC (as a player) or a BBEG (as a DM). But I don't want to have to pick from PF's 900+ spells. So I'm asking if the OP list is a reasonably good mix of useful spells for a broad range of caster roles (blaster, buffer, etc.).No. It's a rather meh mix of useful, semi-useful, and situationally useful spells.
And since even the OP list is still quite large, are there any spells in the list that really aren't that useful, and could be dropped?Most of them don't qualify as "gotta have."
Orfamay, instead of continually criticizing, why don't you post those spells you would consider "spells I gotta have", please and thank you? Take my list and rip out all unessential spells.Happy to. But I want to make sure we are on roughly the same page about what "unessential" means. Even most of what I left in is probably situational, wouldn't make "every day" memorization for a wizard, and wouldn't be on a sorcerer's list of known spells at all.
Here's up to third level:
...
Zero Level
Daze
Detect Magic
Ghost Sound
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Prestidigitation
Read MagicFirst Level
Burning Hands
Charm Person
Color Spray at low levels only
Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Endure Elements
Enlarge Person
Expeditious Retreat
Feather Fall
Floating Disk
Grease
Hold Portal
Identify
Mage Armor
Magic Missile
Magic Weapon
Obscuring Mist
Protection from Evil/Chaos/Good/Law
Reduce Person
Shield
Silent Image
Sleep at low levels only
Summon Monster I
Unseen Servant
Vanish
I don't think you play the same game that I play. Endure Elements, Light/Darkvision, and Rope Trick are all essential. Create Pit is also great.
Vanish is meh imo, and I personally find Lightning Bolt to be garbage when compared to Fireball.
ZenFox, I think maybe the reason your not getting the response you are looking for is because of how general the request is.
...I'm wanting a list of spells that I can quickly build either a Sorcerer or a Wizard from, either for a PC (as a player) or a BBEG (as a DM). But I don't want to have to pick from PF's 900+ spells. So I'm asking if the OP list is a reasonably good mix of useful spells for a broad range of caster roles (blaster, buffer, etc.). ..
You want reaonably good mix of useful spells for a broad range of caster roles. Basically, that's called the core rule book. I'm sorry if that's not what you want to hear, but what you are asking for is just too broad.
I have a diviner wizard that has 3 default lists to memorize: adventuring/combat is expected, walking around town, and investigating.
I have a summoning specialist sorcerer.
I've made a blasting summoner.
I'm working on battlefield control wizard who will probably have the same 3 type of lists as the diviner.
That is 8 different spell lists. There is virtually no overlap between any of them. Except for a few of the extremely common spells like haste, protection from evil, and dispel magic.
If you are just wonting some examples of spell lists for a generic caster. You might get more of what you are looking for here in the NPC Codex