Paladin= game ruiners


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Shadow Lodge

Scavion wrote:

As others have said, if you don't conform the paladin to the many varied differing and opposing views everyone has on him, he falls immediately.

My 2 copper on the matter.

Detect Evil only pings on 5 hd and above. Thus evil that pings on it is HEFTY stuff and honestly a Paladin should KoS. Not all Paladins are redeemers. Ragathiel for instance has a special ritual that specifically dictates his followers to hunt down and kill an evil person every day. As for Misdirection, the Paladin can simply have the Wizard check for magical auras of the Illusion school after the first time it occurs(Since he'll be savvy to it). Also Misdirection on some random old lady wouldn't work unless she also had 5 HD. Undetectable Alignment pings on Detect Magic still and would set me on guard on why this Quest Giver showed up with buffs on.

Most Paladins work as champions of their deity and honestly? Real Deities would have far more pull on my beliefs than laws made up by a potentially corrupt government.

Evil People are Evil folks. They are truly down to their core Evil and reprehensible people. Killing someone who is Evil for "no reason but he's evil(Which means he's done something horrible in his lifetime or has been eking it out over the years but apparently that doesn't matter because the Paladin doesn't know that)" is still an objectively Good action in a world with Objective Morality. Evil was killed thus there is less Evil in the world which by comparison is Good.

Ultimately this comes down to different game expectations. Likely, you want Evil bad guys in disguise to jump your party whereas the Paladin wants his Evil up front and center for him to fight. He's likely not interested in the bait and switch. "Oh No! Lord Malkor the Terrible was really a bad guy! We've been tricked!" Neither is wrongbadfun.

Misdirection can target an object. Objects don't tend to have HD. Therefore, misdirection can target a tree. It mentions not that you need to target an object with an aura. You could misdirect to an aligned item you carry, or even to another person altogether. The only limitation is the range of the spell.

The spell mentions no such thing as HD. Why would Detect Evil, a level 1 spell, be infallible to a level 2 spell? Sorry to say, that makes no sense.

Misdirection mentions no HD cap, it's just a way to subvert detect ____ spells including Detect Undead. You are also very incorrect when you mention detect magic, as Misdirection states it foils detect magic as well. It also has no save and no SR if used on an object.

Your view of evil is also rather at odds with the SRD. Evil comes in many flavors. Lawful Evil sometimes keeps the order against an even bigger (and often measurably worse) bad. Not all LE is actively hurting other people. Not ever tyrant can be overthrown, nor can every NE thug on the streets be executed wholesale.

Sorry to say that even crusader logic doesn't involve "round up all the evil people" and kill them. Just because someone is 5HD and evil doesn't give the Paladin the right to murder-stomp them. Courts require evidence, even in Golarion. Many deities require a Paladin or Cleric to try and actively redeem the situation and to be a beacon of morality.

Paladins are not inquisitors, and they have to play by the same rules they preach.

Shadow Lodge

Let's look at what evil is under RAW:

"Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others."

Per Paladin's code:

"... Paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority"

"act with honor"

It is neither acting with honor nor respecting authority to murder a LE ruler outright. In fact this is "hurting and killing others". A Paladin doing this commits an evil act willfully and is absolutely looking at a fall.

Otherwise Paladins would just rip into evil civilizations and slaughter all those not in accordance with their beliefs. I.e. Lawful Stupid. A Paladin is required to negotiate with local rulers, even if they are evil and seek to actively curb their influence. It's another question entirely if the LE villain is drunk with power, hurting innocents in the streets and slaughtering the innocent. In this case, the CoC requires the Paladin to take action to protect the innocent.

It's a tight rope that Paladins walk. Lawful Evil rulers are still legitimate authority, and must be handled delicately. It's another matter entirely if the Paladin is dealing with devils, outsiders, demons, undead, monstrous humans or so forth... LE and NE humans still have lives, and their life value is to be respected.

Under RAW, characters like Dexter, Yagami Light from Death Note and other vigilantes that murder are absolutely still Chaotic Evil....


Scavion wrote:
Skaldi the Tallest wrote:
A Curse projecting an evil aura on just the people and not emanating from the town itself which makes significantly more sense?

Isn't that what I said?

Skaldi the Tallest wrote:

If you've the freedom in your campaign, write up a small cursed town.

Everyone in the town, regardless of alignment, projects a false evil aura (or not false, depending on the person). [...]


alchemicGenius wrote:

okay, here's the thing... why is it a problem the paladin instantly finds out out about evil people? Just because the person is evil does not mean a paladin is required to kill them. Has the player already murdered somebody off of sheer virtue of them pinging as evil, or are you just worried that it will happen in the future.

Honestly, making a paladin not lawful stupid or lawful prick isn't hard, and I really don't like how people stir up controversies and assume the worst from this class.

Already killed evil people for no reason than "they're evil"


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magnuskn wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:

what about the good aligned succubus cleric of Milani whom doesn't want anything to do with the evil acts of her demonic kin and honestly seeks redemption for the sins of her birth?

it's a good aligned succubus even with the evil subtype, but due to the darn subtype, will detect as evil, regardless of what good she has done.

That is actually questionable, according to information from Wrath of the Righteous.

Inconsistencies in alignment rules? Inconceivable!


Zhayne wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:

what about the good aligned succubus cleric of Milani whom doesn't want anything to do with the evil acts of her demonic kin and honestly seeks redemption for the sins of her birth?

it's a good aligned succubus even with the evil subtype, but due to the darn subtype, will detect as evil, regardless of what good she has done.

That is actually questionable, according to information from Wrath of the Righteous.
Inconsistencies in alignment rules? Inconceivable!

Inconsistencies? Where? There are no inconsistencies in this particular case. Read the spoiler in my earlier post. Or, if people can't be bothered:

Spoiler:
Good-aligned succubi lose the evil subtype.


Apparently, there is a similar case in WotR where that does not occur, judging from what magnuskn says.


WotR is the source of the information. I believe you are misunderstanding. Umbriere says that even if a succubus is CG it still has the evil subtype, and Magnuskn is disagreeing based off of WotR.


Apparently, I am. Though ... it losing the subtype, part of its genetic makeup, based off its behavior changing is nonsensical to me.


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Zhayne wrote:
Apparently, I am. Though ... it losing the subtype, part of its genetic makeup, based off its behavior changing is nonsensical to me.

Is subtype a purely genetic trait? Is Evil genetic?

That would be excellent fodder for an adventure. So many ideas can spring from this question.


Zhayne wrote:
Apparently, I am. Though ... it losing the subtype, part of its genetic makeup, based off its behavior changing is nonsensical to me.

Huh. Democratus is right, that's an interesting idea. That said, I don't think it's genetic. I'm fairly sure that any kids such a succubus would have would still be half-succubus. I see the evil subtype as more of an indication of behavior and less of a genetic thing. YMMV, I suppose.


shadowlodgemember wrote:

Misdirection can target an object. Objects don't tend to have HD. Therefore, misdirection can target a tree. It mentions not that you need to target an object with an aura. You could misdirect to an aligned item you carry, or even to another person altogether. The only limitation is the range of the spell.

The spell mentions no such thing as HD. Why would Detect Evil, a level 1 spell, be infallible to a level 2 spell? Sorry to say, that makes no sense.

Mm. I admit that if you use Misdirection on yourself using a tree as the subject then you could show up as neutral. Due note that when attempting to detect the misdirection'ed subject, the detector gets a Will Save to get the right information anyways and Paladins have some of the best saves in the game. As a 2nd level spell, I don't see Paladins having much of an issue with it.

As for your other beliefs, I have to disagree. Casting down the Evil tyrant on the spot is well within his oath to act with honor. Legitimate Authority is up to quite a bit of interpretation. By your logic, a Paladin falls immediately if he enters a land where theres a law that says "No Paladins." Paladins are well within their right to obey their god's desires over that of some local corrupt constable.


Democratus wrote:
Zhayne wrote:
Apparently, I am. Though ... it losing the subtype, part of its genetic makeup, based off its behavior changing is nonsensical to me.

Is subtype a purely genetic trait? Is Evil genetic?

That would be excellent fodder for an adventure. So many ideas can spring from this question.

Well, yes, it's genetic; it's part of their creature type, no different from elves being humanoid (elf). That has no bearing on their personality or behavior, though.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

WotR:
All we can really say about what happens in Demon's Heresy is that in this particular case a redeemed demon loses the evil subtype and gains the good subtype. Every single reference is to her particular redemption, not the redemption of demons overall.

Personally, I think that alignment subtyped outsiders should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis with respect to redemption, on how the GM wants the story to progress. Araushalee's (sp?) redemption does not make any attempt to define clear rules, except in how her redemption alters her.


Construct dungeon? Watch him go down to a mob of dressers and tables.


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Ipslore the Red wrote:
WotR is the source of the information. I believe you are misunderstanding. Umbriere says that even if a succubus is CG it still has the evil subtype, and Magnuskn is disagreeing based off of WotR.

That is indeed correct.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Chemlak wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Well, we got only one canon example so far and it did make her lose the evil subtype. There was no reference in the book to suggest that this was restricted to her alone, so by direct inference I would suggest that this suggests more strongly that it would apply to all redeemed evil subtype creatures than the the contrary.

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magnuskn wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
Well, we got only one canon example so far and it did make her lose the evil subtype. There was no reference in the book to suggest that this was restricted to her alone, so by direct inference I would suggest that this suggests more strongly that it would apply to all redeemed evil subtype creatures than the the contrary.

The rules for redemption would surely have so stated if that was intended to always be the case.


Also, fallen good outsiders such as Dispater, Shamira the Ardent Dream (maybe) and the erinyes lose the good subtype and gain the evil subtype.

I see no plausible reason that the inverse should not be true.


A paladin should not be executing people on sight because he or she detects evil; it's neither lawful nor good to act in such a manner. I'd explain to the player why it's neither lawful nor good. You should also explain the limits of a paladin's authority based on whether he's in his home country and what the laws of that country may allow the paladin to do in terms of law enforcement or summary justice.

There's an interplay between the class,the paladin's particular religion, the code he follows, his origin and the society he's currently operating within. In a society built on laws, a paladin who takes the law into his own hands has assuredly committed a chaotic act. A paladin who kills a man in cold blood on the streets of a city in a realm governed by reasonable laws, has committed an evil act. The act of murder.

You should warn the paladin about these sorts of behaviors and enforce atonement,and ultimately have the paladin fall, if he does not stop acting in such a manner.


Never having played a Paladin, what's the benefit that makes up for being able to lose all your powers?

Having read the class description a few times, I must confess that I'm puzzled as to why one would choose to play them, mechanically speaking.

Feels like playing a member of the SWAT team amongst a group of professional mercenaries. You may be big and bad, but your boss can still take away your badge and gun if you tilt your head the wrong way.


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aboniks wrote:
Never having played a Paladin, what's the benefit that makes up for being able to lose all your powers?

Being a better fighter than the fighter while also being able to healbot as a swift action and do some minor spellcasting.

Paladins are usually near the top of the DPR competitions due to Smite Evil; they've got some of the best saves in the game, and very good long-term survivability.

As long as you can actually play a hero instead of an antihero. Some people have issues with that.


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
aboniks wrote:
Never having played a Paladin, what's the benefit that makes up for being able to lose all your powers?

Being a better fighter than the fighter while also being able to healbot as a swift action and do some minor spellcasting.

Paladins are usually near the top of the DPR competitions due to Smite Evil; they've got some of the best saves in the game, and very good long-term survivability.

As long as you can actually play a hero instead of an antihero. Some people have issues with that.

that doesn't really justify the restrictions

they are MAD, have no bonus feats, and no weapon training or stuff like that. they do however, have minor spells, smite, and lay on hands. which means, they are more of a boss slaying specialist.

Fighter will kill the mooks faster, but the paladin will mop the floor with the boss.


Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
aboniks wrote:
Never having played a Paladin, what's the benefit that makes up for being able to lose all your powers?

Being a better fighter than the fighter while also being able to healbot as a swift action and do some minor spellcasting.

Paladins are usually near the top of the DPR competitions due to Smite Evil; they've got some of the best saves in the game, and very good long-term survivability.

As long as you can actually play a hero instead of an antihero. Some people have issues with that.

that doesn't really justify the restrictions

I didn't realize I had to justify the restrictions. If you don't like the restrictions, I'm fairly sure that no one is forcing you to play a paladin.

If you like what the powers offer you, then play a paladin, being aware that it comes with behavioral limitations. If you don't like those limitations, you may want to play an inquisitor or something instead.


Gwaithador wrote:

A paladin should not be executing people on sight because he or she detects evil; it's neither lawful nor good to act in such a manner. I'd explain to the player why it's neither lawful nor good. You should also explain the limits of a paladin's authority based on whether he's in his home country and what the laws of that country may allow the paladin to do in terms of law enforcement or summary justice.

There's an interplay between the class,the paladin's particular religion, the code he follows, his origin and the society he's currently operating within. In a society built on laws, a paladin who takes the law into his own hands has assuredly committed a chaotic act. A paladin who kills a man in cold blood on the streets of a city in a realm governed by reasonable laws, has committed an evil act. The act of murder.

Lawful Good wrote:
They oppose evil wherever it is found...

To sum,

1. A Paladin is not required to obey the laws of whatever country hes in. This line of thought leads to ridiculousness such as falling instantly if there's a law that says "No Paladins."

2. Aside from magical trickery(Which a Paladin can uncover rather easily through his massive Will Save), Detect Evil remains a powerfully accurate method of rooting out evil. In combination with the fact that Detect Evil won't ping your common cutpurse but will ping on the evil dictator(whom is likely to be 5 hd or higher), SoS(Smite on Sight) is definitely considerable.

3. A Lawful character may follow their own personal code. Which puts a stink on applying "Respecting Legitimate Authority" which is terribly vague. A Paladin can just as easily say, "Well the only one with authority over me is GOD!" and adhering to a higher power such as his Deity for the matter.


Gotcha. Thanks, to both of you.


Scavion wrote:
Gwaithador wrote:

A paladin who kills a man in cold blood on the streets of a city in a realm governed by reasonable laws, has committed an evil act. The act of murder.

Lawful Good wrote:
They oppose evil wherever it is found...

Are there ways of opposing something that do not involve killing?

Bear in mind that "Good implies... respect for life." I'd argue that a Smite on Sight policy is by definition at best Neutral, and by no account Good. While it may be necessary to kill an evil being, it should never be the preferred option.

Similarly, "Lawful characters ... respect authority. Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability." Saying "The only one with authority over me is my God" is not Lawful, in my opinion. While it may be necessary to disobey authority, that should never be the preferred option.

So the paladin that you described above would last about thirty seconds at my table.


Orfamay Quest wrote:


Are there ways of opposing something that do not involve killing?

Bear in mind that "Good implies... respect for life." I'd argue that a Smite on Sight policy is by definition at best Neutral, and by no account Good. While it may be necessary to kill an evil being, it should never be the preferred option.

Similarly, "Lawful characters ... respect authority. Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability." Saying "The only one with authority over me is my God" is not Lawful, in my opinion. While it may be necessary to disobey authority, that should never be the preferred option.

So the paladin that you described above would last about thirty seconds at my table.

Simply put, there isn't time to redeem everyone in a Paladin's relatively short lifespan. I compare them to Barbarians really. They fight and fight against greater evils till they die heroically, probably by sacrificing themselves. But then again, I consider the Paladin to be the more martial oriented holy warrior. If you want someone to sit the baddie down and tell him why he's wrong, I'd recommend them a good cleric. Basically if you're limiting a Paladin from striking evil down left and right like he should be, I'd want to be informed of that before picking my class.

Also I don't believe it is a good idea to try and have a player exemplify each specific interpretation of his alignment at once as that will probably frustrate them quite a bit.

Smite first, ponder philosophy later will likely save more lives than wont. Unless you as a DM specifically endeavor to make it not so.

But then again the Paladin has always had the universe playing against him.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
aboniks wrote:
Never having played a Paladin, what's the benefit that makes up for being able to lose all your powers?

Being a better fighter than the fighter while also being able to healbot as a swift action and do some minor spellcasting.

Paladins are usually near the top of the DPR competitions due to Smite Evil; they've got some of the best saves in the game, and very good long-term survivability.

As long as you can actually play a hero instead of an antihero. Some people have issues with that.

that doesn't really justify the restrictions

I didn't realize I had to justify the restrictions. If you don't like the restrictions, I'm fairly sure that no one is forcing you to play a paladin.

If you like what the powers offer you, then play a paladin, being aware that it comes with behavioral limitations. If you don't like those limitations, you may want to play an inquisitor or something instead.

alignment restrictions and other behavioral limitations are a stupid way to balance a class that should have gone the way of the dodo 3 or more editions ago, what about lawful neutral? neutral good? or even chaotic good paladins?

in fact, what they do, is exclude concepts, rather than encourage immersion. and well, many historical figures romanticized as paladins, whether knights of the round table, or followers of Roland, weren't really as saintly as we give them credit for. in fact, a lot of them were stone cold brigands whom did some borderline evil stuff.

in fact alignment restrictions and behavioral limitations, as well as equipment or class skill restrictions, should be dropped entirely. it's my problem with the FFTA3D human Paravir, it was exactly the same as a Bangaa Gladiator with the exception that it wielded katanas and it's identical skills had fancy japanese sounding names. in fact, nobody used a Gladiator because not only did the Paravir have proficiency in a superior weapon type, it could train as a ninja to dual wield katanas then train as a paladin to boost it's defense. making the nastiest melee unit in the game.

it's why i didn't like thieves or ninja in the same game, because they were the same class, but ninja got katanas and thieves got knives. spellcloaks were just ninja with Black Magic and shroud dagger proficiency. and shroud daggers, were merely stronger daggers that were exclusive to spellcloaks.

in fact, a lot of the classes could have been dropped if they admitted that 90% of the DLC classes were superior rehashes of existing classes.


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More to the point, alignment restrictions and behavioral limitations don't even work as a balancing mechanism, because they are arbitrary and subjective.


Zhayne wrote:
More to the point, alignment restrictions and behavioral limitations don't even work as a balancing mechanism, because they are arbitrary and subjective.

true.

FFTA3D was literally designed around, flavor of the Week DLC classes you had to spend 5 dollars USD to use on the 3DS. they lasted through one file per download. and could be copied. a lot of the classes came with the downside of an additional law, exclusive to that class, usually something ridiculous like, Spellcloaks weren't allowed to draw first blood on faeries or Paravirs weren't to attack foes from behind.

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For "smite first, ask questions if absolutely required" Paladins, I always keep the following NPC handy:

----
Roger Artui (LE human Rogue 3/Cleric of Norgorber 1) is a halfway-decent tavern keep catering to the seedier side of the town. His establishment serves watered-down ales, rowdy entertainment, and abets (though not directly employs) several ladies of the night plying their trade.

He is aided by his two daughters, Kylish and Aless. Both are able pickpockets, but take care never to work too close to home. Still, he shields them as best he can.

In his younger years he himself was involved with the thieves guild of the city, and took parts in their rites, often leading whispered prayers to the Grey Master before particular daring heists. He left the guild on semi-amicable terms after an internal power eliminated his protector, former guildmisstress Areia.

----

Evil Aura? Yeah. Killing him out of hand... probably a good way to get a hemp necklace.


As everyone else has been saying, taking a closer look at how detect evil actually functions and that the idea behind detect evil is it's a way to reveal evil outsiders and clerics of evil gods operating in disguise (or hanging around invisibly/behind curtains or something), not a magical, "should I kill this guy?" are both things you should definitely be doing, but from how you phrased your initial post here, there seems to be a much more important thing that needs addressing:

sword n' board wrote:
In my group, one of the pcs is a paladin who uses detect evil constantly. my problem with this is that i cant have anybody to be evil without him knowing and killing him. so is there a way that i can prevent the paladin from ruining every quest with an evil person.

What sort of adventures are you running where this derails them? The only time I can see this being a problem is if you're running some sort of whodunit focused campaign, where there is an evil mastermind behind who the party meets in some sort of social gathering before they set about on whatever evil plan they have which needs stopping.

If you do want to run an adventure like that, you really should have the mastermind taking some precautions against various forms of magical detection (unless it's a low level game, in which case most villains shouldn't have a visible aura in the first place).

Most adventures in my experience though aren't hinged on that sort of mystery. There's usually no real reason for it to be a big secret that a villain is a villain, and if you're in a position to kill them, a fight should already be well underway.

Also worth considering- In your games, is there any outward sign that this paladin is using detect evil? If there isn't, why should anyone believe them when they site it as the reason they're spontaneously killing people. If there is, and he's using it on, say, the king's most trusted advisor, play that up as the biggest social faux pas in the world.


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Scavion wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Are there ways of opposing something that do not involve killing?

Bear in mind that "Good implies... respect for life." I'd argue that a Smite on Sight policy is by definition at best Neutral, and by no account Good. While it may be necessary to kill an evil being, it should never be the preferred option.

Similarly, "Lawful characters ... respect authority. Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability." Saying "The only one with authority over me is my God" is not Lawful, in my opinion. While it may be necessary to disobey authority, that should never be the preferred option.

So the paladin that you described above would last about thirty seconds at my table.

Simply put, there isn't time to redeem everyone in a Paladin's relatively short lifespan.

There isn't time to kill everyone, either. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Quote:
I compare them to Barbarians really. They fight and fight against greater evils till they die heroically, probably by sacrificing themselves.

Is there a way to "oppose" evil other than by killing things?

This particular theme goes all the way back to the Arthurian legends. And the classical answer -- as well as the correct one -- is "yes." That's one of the main points of Galahad, in fact.

Quote:
But then again, I consider the Paladin to be the more martial oriented holy warrior. If you want someone to sit the baddie down and tell him why he's wrong, I'd recommend them a good cleric. Basically if you're limiting a Paladin from striking evil down left and right like he should be, I'd want to be informed of that before picking my class.

I'm sure you would. If your interpretation of Lawful Good is neither Lawful nor Good, I'd want to be informed of THAT before you picked your class. I suspect we'd both be disappointed.


I foresee an encounter with a high cleric to reprimand the paladin for his actions. Souls are meant for savin' not killin'. Unless their acts sowed the seeds to deserve a killin'.....I like me some killin'....I mean we shall see the vagabond redeemed or punished.


Scavion wrote:
Gwaithador wrote:

A paladin should not be executing people on sight because he or she detects evil; it's neither lawful nor good to act in such a manner. I'd explain to the player why it's neither lawful nor good. You should also explain the limits of a paladin's authority based on whether he's in his home country and what the laws of that country may allow the paladin to do in terms of law enforcement or summary justice.

There's an interplay between the class,the paladin's particular religion, the code he follows, his origin and the society he's currently operating within. In a society built on laws, a paladin who takes the law into his own hands has assuredly committed a chaotic act. A paladin who kills a man in cold blood on the streets of a city in a realm governed by reasonable laws, has committed an evil act. The act of murder.

Lawful Good wrote:
They oppose evil wherever it is found...

To sum,

1. A Paladin is not required to obey the laws of whatever country hes in. This line of thought leads to ridiculousness such as falling instantly if there's a law that says "No Paladins."

2. Aside from magical trickery(Which a Paladin can uncover rather easily through his massive Will Save), Detect Evil remains a powerfully accurate method of rooting out evil. In combination with the fact that Detect Evil won't ping your common cutpurse but will ping on the evil dictator(whom is likely to be 5 hd or higher), SoS(Smite on Sight) is definitely considerable.

3. A Lawful character may follow their own personal code. Which puts a stink on applying "Respecting Legitimate Authority" which is terribly vague. A Paladin can just as easily say, "Well the only one with authority over me is GOD!" and adhering to a higher power such as his Deity for the matter.

Scavion, I was very particular about stating "whether he was in his own country" and the "interplay" of various factors. My example about killing a man in cold blood specifically mentions a "realm governed by reasonable laws" all of that was intended to suggest that yes, there's going to be some countries that run completely contrary to Law, Good and the paladin's code and how the paladin responds to situations in those countries or lands may well be different than in his own realm, which I'm assuming not primarily "evil" or "chaotic." A paladin who discovers that a greedy merchant with over priced goods and bad business practices is actually Neutral Evil would not justify the paladin running him through at the market.


Orfamay Quest wrote:

There isn't time to kill everyone, either. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Is there a way to "oppose" evil other than by killing things?

This particular theme goes all the way back to the Arthurian legends. And the classical answer -- as well as the correct one -- is "yes." That's one of the main points of Galahad, in fact.

I'm sure you would. If your interpretation of Lawful Good is neither Lawful nor Good, I'd want to be informed of THAT before you picked your class. I suspect we'd both be disappointed.

Is redemption an option that I can take more than half the time without majorly derailing the campaign? Not really. Chancing at trying to redeem someone which likely takes a very long time and has no guarantee of success and even worse the person could simply get away and go on to wreak more havoc on the world isn't a good option. In fact, risking the lives of others on that hope is certainly not a good thing to do. Imprisonment for these reasons as well is also not a good option.

I am familiar with Arthurian legend. Does that make opposing evil through violence wrong?

Here is what Detect Evil pings off of,

1. Powerful(5 HD) Evil Aligned Creatures
2. Undead, which are pretty KoS, Ghosts are an exception though even then most are evil.
3. Evil Outsiders get the smite no questions asked. Should I listen in case this is one of those silly special snowflake redeemed demons? Sure whatever. They've likely dealt with folks who have attacked first anyways.
4. Evil Cultists or heavens forbid an antipaladin. Definitely smite on sight. These people have pledged their lives to a greater evil power.
5. Misdirection'd innocents which a Paladin gets their tremendous save against.

Hesitation puts the lives of others at risk.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Zhayne wrote:
More to the point, alignment restrictions and behavioural limitations don't even work as a balancing mechanism, because they are arbitrary and subjective.

The Laws they abide to are in fact; laid down by the god they follow. They are restrictive but not subjective in the slightest (The Law or Code they follow isn't their own - it's their faith's).

The Paladin (or any Lawful Good character then carry this faith with them into dark places; they are meant to represent the best values of their faith. That's the balance.

It does take a certain amount of maturity of a player to get the obvious mechanical benefits balanced right with the restrictions. Which is why once a week we see the always amusing threads 'OMG Paladins are so overpowered' or 'Alignment sux, cause it's takes away nice toys and my table objects when I play like a spoiled prat'.

So no, arbitrary (random or personal whim) and subjective (influenced by personal feelings) don't even enter into a Paladin choice. They have a code or an ideal that they strive for; each and every day, combat and every action. Heavy stuff I know, but that 's what you get.


Scavion wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

There isn't time to kill everyone, either. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Is there a way to "oppose" evil other than by killing things?

This particular theme goes all the way back to the Arthurian legends. And the classical answer -- as well as the correct one -- is "yes." That's one of the main points of Galahad, in fact.

I'm sure you would. If your interpretation of Lawful Good is neither Lawful nor Good, I'd want to be informed of THAT before you picked your class. I suspect we'd both be disappointed.

Is redemption an option that I can take more than half the time without majorly derailing the campaign? Not really.

continues playing a Redeemer paladin


Liath Samathran wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

There isn't time to kill everyone, either. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Is there a way to "oppose" evil other than by killing things?

This particular theme goes all the way back to the Arthurian legends. And the classical answer -- as well as the correct one -- is "yes." That's one of the main points of Galahad, in fact.

I'm sure you would. If your interpretation of Lawful Good is neither Lawful nor Good, I'd want to be informed of THAT before you picked your class. I suspect we'd both be disappointed.

Is redemption an option that I can take more than half the time without majorly derailing the campaign? Not really.
continues playing a Redeemer paladin

But do all Paladins need to be Redeemers?


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Scavion wrote:
Liath Samathran wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

There isn't time to kill everyone, either. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Is there a way to "oppose" evil other than by killing things?

This particular theme goes all the way back to the Arthurian legends. And the classical answer -- as well as the correct one -- is "yes." That's one of the main points of Galahad, in fact.

I'm sure you would. If your interpretation of Lawful Good is neither Lawful nor Good, I'd want to be informed of THAT before you picked your class. I suspect we'd both be disappointed.

Is redemption an option that I can take more than half the time without majorly derailing the campaign? Not really.
continues playing a Redeemer paladin
But do all Paladins need to be Redeemers?

All paladins need to be Good.

Blindly murdering all that is evil does more to strengthen Evil than Good. And not all that is evil deserves death.

More is expected of Good than Evil. Good is not simply Evil painted in lighter shades.

Is Good forced to kill at times? Yes. Should Good kill when it doesn't have to? When there is a better way?

No.

My father was the sort of man who simply wished to see the wicked burned from the earth regardless of the circumstances or consequences for the lost and those connected to them. Regardless of the greater possibilities within each of those souls.

I will never be like my father.


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lastblacknight wrote:


So no, arbitrary (random or personal whim) and subjective (influenced by personal feelings) don't even enter into a Paladin choice.

Yes, they do ... however, the arbitrariness and subjectivity is the GM's, not the player's. Alignment is completely arbitrary and subjective, despite what people claim, because what is 'objectively good' in the setting is determined by a subjective person.


Liath Samathran wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Liath Samathran wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:

There isn't time to kill everyone, either. That doesn't seem to bother you.

Is there a way to "oppose" evil other than by killing things?

This particular theme goes all the way back to the Arthurian legends. And the classical answer -- as well as the correct one -- is "yes." That's one of the main points of Galahad, in fact.

I'm sure you would. If your interpretation of Lawful Good is neither Lawful nor Good, I'd want to be informed of THAT before you picked your class. I suspect we'd both be disappointed.

Is redemption an option that I can take more than half the time without majorly derailing the campaign? Not really.
continues playing a Redeemer paladin
But do all Paladins need to be Redeemers?

All paladins need to be Good.

Blindly murdering all that is evil does more to strengthen Evil than Good. And not all that is evil deserves death.

More is expected of Good than Evil. Good is not simply Evil painted in lighter shades.

Is Good forced to kill at times? Yes. Should Good kill when it doesn't have to? When there is a better way?

Doing anything blindly is likely to be bad. No one said Good should kill when you don't need to. In a perfect world no one is evil =P


In an Alexandrian game setting anyone that pings detect evil is steeped in evil. They're either serving an evil god(dess) or have accumulated enough hit dice that they're no longer just engaged in banal evils.

Well, commoners can ping while still being pretty banal, but anyone else is doing something smite-worthy even if you don't know what. Five hit dice people are leaders or elites. You don't maintain an evil alignment as a leader without doing horrible things and you don't reach elite status without having had the opportunity to participate in war crimes or reject those opportunities and keep an evil alignment. Evil is not nice.

In a setting where used wagon salesmen are randomly rogue 10s detect evil is less discriminatory, but in such a setting why would anyone hire a level 1 adventuring party?


Surely all this depends on that particular deities code that the paladin follows?
Talk of "the paladin would do this" depends on which deity he follows. A paladin of Abadar would uphold different values to that of a Sarenrae, yes?


Keep in mind that you can be a cleric to an evil god while maintaining a neutral alignment.

You still have the Aura class feature and still ping as your gods alignment.

You could be a Neutral politician that preaches the word of the Reaper of Reputation and ping as evil. Heck, you could be a decent dude that's done a lot of good for the community.


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Skaldi the Tallest wrote:

Keep in mind that you can be a cleric to an evil god while maintaining a neutral alignment.

You still have the Aura class feature and still ping as your gods alignment.

You could be a Neutral politician that preaches the word of the Reaper of Reputation and ping as evil. Heck, you could be a decent dude that's done a lot of good for the community.

A Lawful Neutral cleric of Asmodeus is still a threat to common society. These are actually some of the more dangerous foes you'll face. They will be the ones to tempt you down the dark path of serving their master while seeming to be "Not so bad!"

By choosing to preach the word of an evil power, you have caused evil to become greater.


Or by serving an evil master and still accomplishing good, you've proven that even in the darkness, light can shine. Heck, keep in mind that Asmodeus was a key figure in saving the world from the greatest threat it ever faced.

That's the perfect target for redemption. Someone that does good in the name of an evil god. Why not try to show them the benefits of worshiping anyone else?

That Neutral cleric has never murdered anyone, never stolen, never set fire to an orphanage, (he's needed an atonement or two in his time for being just a bit too nice, but hey, everyone has their faults). He's cured diseases and helps to feed the local poor. Your paladin will murder him without question. That paladin should absolutely fall until he's atoned.

Edit to add: New Character concept acquired! Separatist Cleric of Asmodeus w/ Law and Community Domains. Maybe Home subdomain...


Gwaithador wrote:

There's an interplay between the class,the paladin's particular religion, the code he follows, his origin and the society he's currently operating within. In a society built on laws, a paladin who takes the law into his own hands has assuredly committed a chaotic act. A paladin who kills a man in cold blood on the streets of a city in a realm governed by reasonable laws, has committed an evil act. The act of murder.

You should warn the paladin about these sorts of behaviors and enforce atonement,and ultimately have the paladin fall, if he does not stop acting in such a manner.

Um, no. Killing a man in cold blood is what cops do. They don't hate the criminal. They are just following the law.

And the Paladin isn't killing for no reason: he knows they are evil. Very evil as they are 5th level or higher or serve evil powers.
So as murder can be defined as illegal killing, it isn't always evil.
Thus, while chaotic, he can't fall for it.


sword n' board wrote:
In my group, one of the pcs is a paladin who uses detect evil constantly. my problem with this is that i cant have anybody to be evil without him knowing and killing him. so is there a way that i can prevent the paladin from ruining every quest with an evil person.

Yeah.

Make the bartender evil, but not criminal, and have the local authorities arrest the Paladin for murder when he kills the bartender.

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