I do know that as a recent ruling, Spell-Like Abilities that mimick appropriate level spells do count for casting requirements of even prestige classes.
Given that the uses of SLAs are not prepared but work more like spell slots, do they count for the Dragon Disciple Requirement?
The PrC entry says:
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline.
So, can for example an Aasimar with the Heavenly Radiance feat (taking Flare Burst) and 5 levels of Wizard/Magus/Witch enter the class without "wasting" a level in Sorc/Bard/Summ?
It would be cool because would not waste that +2 int and still reach 9 level spells if Full Caster.
On a side note, I know that Aasimars are guilty of abusing of SLAs, but that was that first example that came to my mind. Another option would be to use Eldritgh Heritage (Many 1st level bloodline powers are SLAs, the Sage one even states a spell level) or Minor and Major Magic rogue talents, though that option defeats my purpose of not use multiclassing for entry.
Are you asking for PFS or for a home game?
Well, in a Home game almost everything can be parmitted by convincing the GM, so it's kind of both, as the recent ruling about SLAs and spell requirement is about PFS and offical rules in general.
If the requirement was to "Spontaneously Cast Arcane Spells", then the SLA wouldn't fulfill that IMHO, as it isn't equivalent to spontaneously designating spell slots, but that's not what it says, it just says you need to cast arcane spells without preparation, which SLAs fulfill.
What would be the point? Level 1 of any spontanious arcane class gives you the needed caster level and without that class you can't make use of dd spellcast progression.
DD /can/ also progress non-spontaneous arcane casting classes, aka Wizard/Witch/Magus..
Personally I would say no, because it's pretty cheap, you no longer have to need to take the inevitable class just because you are in that race. I wish I can go full fighter before taking DD, but I couldn't.
Logically, still a no. "Requirements
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Any nondragon.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.
Languages: Draconic.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline."
It's 1st-level spell. Not 3rd-level. Also it's a spell-like ability. Not casting a spell. That means you have a ability that act just like a spell and require you channel the magic in you, but still not a spell. You don't need to make check using ability when threaten, but you do when casting spell. Totally two different things.
My answer is no, it doesn't meet requirements. Via heavenly radiance you basically gain another spell like, in addition to daylight, and you split the number of uses of daylight between daylight and the SLA you gain. The feat say that you can "spend a use of your daylight SLA ", not that you can convert daylight to your new gained SLA. Even if it would say that, SLAs are not spells, so you are not spontaneous casting any spell, you would have a sort of "spontaneous casting" on the SLA. SLAs let you meet requirements just in case of specific spell (i.e. "ability to cast X" where Xor is a specific spell).
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Looks like some folks in this thread missed the June's official FAQ on SLAs and prerequisites.
SLAs absolutely count as spellcasting for prereqs, and using them for entry (even early entry) into Prestige Classes is fully vetted and supported by the Design Team.
It's not abusive, it's the current intent.
As long as your SLA is the correct type (arcane or divine), the correct level, etc; it qualifies you for spellcasting prereqs.
And every objection you're thinking of (like "it says spells, not spell") was brought up when this first hit the scene, and was shot down by the Design Team. They fully intend for SLAs to count for spellcasting prereqs, including PrC entry.
It's definitely a paradigm shift, but it's the intent of the current Design Team.
What Jiggy said. To be clear, it was a shock to me as well at first, but that's been the ruling for the while, and the ruling is consistent.
You do need the correct spell level SLA though: A higher level SLA doesn't fulfill a requirement specifying a lower spell level.
What Jiggy said. To be clear, it was a shock to me as well at first, but that's been the ruling for the while, and the ruling is consistent.
You do need the correct spell level SLA though: A higher level SLA doesn't fulfill a requirement specifying a lower spell level.
Yup, that's important; it took a follow-up FAQ to clear it up. Skills are considered cumulative; if it says that it requires 5 ranks in Knowledge (Arcana), then having 6 ranks qualifies, because having 6 ranks means that you also have 5 ranks.
Spells don't function the same way. Having the ability to cast a 3rd-level spell (via a spell-like ability) does not automatically mean you can cast 2nd-level spells as well. So if it requires the ability to cast a 2nd-level spell, then the SLA you have must mimic a 2nd-level spell.
Looks like some folks in this thread missed the June's official FAQ on SLAs and prerequisites.
SLAs absolutely count as spellcasting for prereqs, and using them for entry (even early entry) into Prestige Classes is fully vetted and supported by the Design Team.
It's not abusive, it's the current intent.
As long as your SLA is the correct type (arcane or divine), the correct level, etc; it qualifies you for spellcasting prereqs.
And every objection you're thinking of (like "it says spells, not spell") was brought up when this first hit the scene, and was shot down by the Design Team. They fully intend for SLAs to count for spellcasting prereqs, including PrC entry.
That's not what I say. Let's read your linked FAQ:
Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.
The example is pretty clear: if the prc requirement is something like "ability to cast [specific spell name]", any SLA that grant [specific spell name] count as requisite. If the entry says "abiliti to cas [level X] spells", the SLA doesn't count.
To harden my position, I quote this FAQ (just above the faq you linked):
Spell-Like Abilities as Spells: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items.
Since a SLA is not a spell, you are not able to cast Xth level spells.
You really shouldn't have hardened your position.
You're reading negative statements into the FAQ that just aren't there.
In fact I myself specifically clarified that 'casting X spell' vs. 'casting spells [in general]' issue with Paizo devs,
and they explicitly affirmed that 'ability to cast [...] spells' is met by having 1 [...] SLA.
The RAW and original FAQ weren't definitive one way or another (English can be vague), but they confirmed 1 SLA does count.
I don't know what they ended up putting in the FAQ itself,
they don't always port over every ruling to the FAQ, but it's in a dev post somewhere at least.
As someone who followed the entire debate that preceded and proceeded the FAQ, including SKR's statements related to qualifying for Arcane Strike (which requires the ability to cast arcane spells) using SLAs, I can say with absolute certainty that you can qualify for PrCs using SLAs to meet a prerequisite of "able to cast Xth level spells".
Uh... WTF no. The Feat freaking says you still prepare them.
It's not abusive, it's the current intent.
Just because it's the current intent doesn't mean it's not abusive.
I agree with Drakkonys - it's cheap. Up to you and your GM if you can live with it.
If you're playing the game how it's supposed to be played, you aren't abusing the game.
Doesn't mean that the game couldn't be poorly designed, or you might say you could be abusing the "play experience", but that's a distinct issue.
FYI, even before it was "realized" that SLAs qualified for such things, people built Dragon Disciples advancing Wizard casting, just with a Sorceror dip in addition. The difference in Sorc/Wiz casting progression meant they weren't any further behind a pure Sorc-DD, and double dipped on Bloodline Arcana(potentially Crossblooded) and Wizard School bennies.
I see no reason it wouldn't work since:
- By the FAQ you can use SLAs to qualify for prerequisites that reference spells.
- The class demands the ability to spontaneously cast 1st level spells.
- SLAs mimic spontaneous casting
Now, the last of those is more of an inference than anything that officially is and I suppose is the crux of a question but I fail to summon an answer I'd have confidence that the 3rd of those is incorrect.
It's not abusive, it's the current intent.Just because it's the current intent doesn't mean it's not abusive.
I agree with Drakkonys - it's cheap. Up to you and your GM if you can live with it.
Indeed. Can you live with the mortal sin of using the FAQ ruling? Can you sleep at night, knowing you power-gamed? I am sorry to be facetious but "if you can live with it" strikes me as a bit hyperbolic a response to the FAQ. In this case - it strikes the usual paradigm of multiclassing in any case: DD loses casting levels from the offset, casting levels are very very powerful, and the +2 INT (and other features) do not make up for that. Still gaining 9th level spells at level 20 really does not make up for the shot in the foot during a large chunk of the campaign in my honest opinion.
Just use this feat and all is done....spell-mastery...
Now you get spontaneous spells being a wizard.
Well, no. But Preferred Spell would work, though it would prevent you from taking DD levels until level 6. Greater Spell Specialization would also work, though then you couldn’t take your spell specialization levels until level 10.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is abusive.It's not abusive, it's the current intent.Just because it's the current intent doesn't mean it's not abusive.
That's a truism, unlike your earlier statement.
Physically Unfeasible: I would presume that you're unfamiliar with the idiom "live with it", but you seem to have parsed it just fine. I do not consider my statement hyperbole at all.
You've got more homework to do, Blackstorm. Including reading the rest of that FAQ entry (the part that you conveniently left out that explicitly states that the Design Team knows the ruling allows people to get into PrC's early).
Please, explain me in which way the part I didn't quote negate what I said. The fact that the design team knows that this ruling allow early entry doesn't mean that such design allow always and ever no matter the rules an early entry. Let's quote the piece of that:
Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.
Emphasys mine.
Now, in wich way this edit negate what I said?Also, for further reference, I'll just quote another FAQ, and the whole text maybe I... miss something:
Metamagic: Can I use a metamagic feat to alter a spell-like ability?No. Metamagic feats specifically only affect spells, not spell-like abilities. Also, spell-like abilities do not have spell slots, so you can't adjust the effective spell slot of a spell-like ability.
So, can you explain how a SLA, that does not have spell slot, could qualify for a requirements that says "ability to cast Xth level spells", that means, afaik, that you must have at least one slot of Xth level and at least an ability spellcasting score of 10+X?
PS: I know I'm rude, but I really hate answers like those that doesn't explain anything and point me of volutarily left piece of rules for supporting my view. If you, or someone, has an explaination that can break my point of view, using rules and FAQs, a making logic steps, I'll be glad to review my position. Until now, nor you or anyone can negate what I said, unless you can prove that the early access via SLA is always allowed no matter what the rest of rules and faqs says.
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You've got more homework to do, Blackstorm. Including reading the rest of that FAQ entry (the part that you conveniently left out that explicitly states that the Design Team knows the ruling allows people to get into PrC's early).
+1
The only caveat to this is this spell casting is specific to "without preparation" so you have these issues which might make table variance:
- Are SLA unprepared? I'd say yes. Others would say "but it isn't spontaneous casting" which is the intent/purpose of that "unprepared" word.
- Did the Design team consider PrC like this when they wrote the rule? Probably not. Do we care? Probably not.
Physically Unfeasible: I would presume that you're unfamiliar with the idiom "live with it", but you seem to have parsed it just fine. I do not consider my statement hyperbole at all.
I am aware of the phrase "live with it", however "if you can live with it" has different implications to my experience. One that implies that doing so is not expected. In light of that, it does sound hyperbolic.
But I assume cross-purposes here and apologise if I crossed a line.As far as sensibly discussing rulings rather here;
So, can you explain how a SLA, that does not have spell slot, could qualify for a requirements that says "ability to cast Xth level spells", that means, afaik, that you must have at least one slot of Xth level and at least an ability spellcasting score of 10+X?
Blackstorm, you are conflating spell slots and spells. The ability to cast a spell, whilst implying having a spell slot of a level before the FAQ, is not the same thing as having a spell slot.
In the most general sense, P¬Q does not imply P=Q.I will elaborate further if I get a chance, currently about to head out on my end (and Jiggy will probably do a better job anyway if he responds).
PS: I know I'm rude, but I really hate answers like those that doesn't explain anything and...
I can see where you're coming from Blackstorm and, separate from my dislike of the FAQ at all, you may be correct.
But to be fair to Jiggy, there is quite a long chain of FAQ entries that results in this mess. Explaining it all over again (particularly in a way that doesn't invite restarting the whole debate) would be quite an endeavor. There are entire threads detailing it (some created by Jiggy if I'm not mistaken). That's why that "Edit: 7/12/13" section was added - to make it clear.
Suffice to say, "Xth-level spells" prerequisites, per the very contentious FAQ answers, can indeed be covered by SLA's (slots or no). James Risner lists the actual debatable points as far as Dragon Disciple goes.
Here is a thread wherein Sean K. (designer extraordinaire [former, or soon-to-be former]) answers the question, "What is the effective spell level of a Spell-Like Ability that acts as an existing spell, but with some changes?"
Here is Sean answering some more in-depth questions. And later in the thread he answers ZanThrax's question about Arcane Strike, which explicitly calls out that you must be able to cast arcane spells in order to qualify - which indicates indirectly, since all spells have levels, that the arcane-equivalent spell-like abilities would have levels as well.
I'm sorry for the terse response. Back when this first came out, there were lots of discussions around the topic trying to hash stuff out, and for those of us involved it can seem a bit harrying to answer these questions time and again.
Just a tip on something that I do fairly frequently: In the left-hand navbar of the site you can change to search for users, and then from within the user's profile you can search all of their posts and threads. So you can search for a designer - Sean K. Reynolds, for instance - then search all of his posts for a particular word or phrase to see if he's commented on it before.
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Sean answering some more in-depth questions
To my knowledge, the only thing not covered is the complicated things like the case of Dragon Disciple that hasn't been resolved.
Considering the ruling on Metamagic rods (that they do not work) it may or may not work with "without preparation".
You might be more knowledgeable on the matter, has someone responded to this question?
Unfortunately I'm not aware that it's been answered, James. I did do some looking back through the discussions but I don't see where Sean (or any of the other various developers who chimed in) answered that particular question.
Personally, I lean toward all SLAs being spontaneous. You don't prepare them; there's no spellbook or memorization required; you simply wake up in the morning and you have enough innate magic in your person to create that effect a certain number of times throughout the day.
Even if SLAs count as casting spell, it's still a 3rd level spell, not 1st. So it shouldn't work.
Even if SLAs count as casting spell, it's still a 3rd level spell, not 1st. So it shouldn't work.
That is an excellent RAW point.
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Spontaneous =/= Without Preparation.
Spontaneous casting is what clerics do when they swap out a prepare spell for a Cure. They still prepare spells.
Casting without preparation is what sorcerers do. They never prepared spells in the first place.
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Being able to cast a SLA has been FAQed to satisfy "can cast X spell".
SLAs are not prepared.
=> You can cast X spell without preparing.
Even if SLAs count as casting spell, it's still a 3rd level spell, not 1st. So it shouldn't work.That is an excellent RAW point.
There are first-level options, however.
It said you have to be able to cast 1st level spell without preparing, it's not optional. You can cast lvl 9 spell without preparing, but doesn't mean you can cast level 1 spell. If you can't cast level 1, you shouldn't be able to take DD with it.
Also daylight should be divine spell in this manner since it's from a celestial race.
There is no special exception to the SLA typing rules for 'alignment subtype' outsiders.
Not that Aasimar, Tieflings, et al have any such typing beyond being Native Outsiders.
What is with people reposting and reposting that higher level spells don't count as lower level ones?
It's OK, we got it, multiple people have already posted that.
Right, class derivative SLAs (like Cleric Domain SLAs) are the only thing that vary from that, reverting to any magical typing of the Class in question.
@ Blackstorm
So, which PrC CAN be gained through early entry, then? As far as I know, Dragon Disciple is one of the ones that specifically CANNOT be gotten before lv.6, as it requires 5 ranks in a skill. Many of the others have requirements that you can cast lv.X spells, but this is one where you have to put in the levels.
If I have a race (or class, or whatever) that grants me SLA that mimics a 1st level arcane spell (let's say it's Vanish), I should qualify for (the 1st level spellcasting portion of) Dragon Disciple.
Mystic Theurge can be taken at forth level. Cleric 2/Empyreal Sorcerer 1/Mystic Theurge is popular.
Eldritch Knight can get in at level 2. But dragon disciple as to be at least level 6 with 5 ranks and a level 1 arcane spell. Not 3, not 2, but one. If a character unable to cast 1st level spell without preparing, they shouldn't be able to be dragon disciple.
@ Blackstorm
So, which PrC CAN be gained through early entry, then? As far as I know, Dragon Disciple is one of the ones that specifically CANNOT be gotten before lv.6, as it requires 5 ranks in a skill. Many of the others have requirements that you can cast lv.X spells, but this is one where you have to put in the levels.
If I have a race (or class, or whatever) that grants me SLA that mimics a 1st level arcane spell (let's say it's Vanish), I should qualify for (the 1st level spellcasting portion of) Dragon Disciple.
In my opinion, no. Let's say a race give you magic hand as SLA, you could qualify for arcane trickster with a summoner, for example. The faq never say you're considered to be able to cast level X spells. At least the way I read it. I'm for sure wrong, as the vast majority of you don't agree with me. I'll just stick with this view, until something clearer came up. Just a question to think of: if a prc need you to cast Xth level spells, and another say you need to cast Xth level spells without preparation, does a sla allow you to qualify for both our just the latter?
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Cannot edit, but seems I was wrong. Luckily for me (as nobody seem able to say nothing other than "do homework because I'm quoting the same faq again and again even if it doesn't answer the question"), I remembered another faq.
Here, I'll break it down to logical steps.
Step 1:The FAQ says so.
No, it's not that faq. It's this: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r95
If a prestige class requires 5 ranks in a skill and I have 6 ranks in that skill, do I still meet the requirements?
Yes, because skill ranks are inclusive: if you have 6 ranks in a skill, then you have 5 ranks in that skill, and therefore meet the "have 5 ranks in [this] skill" requirement.
In the same way, if you have a BAB of +6, then you have a BAB of +5, and therefore meet the "have BAB +5" requirement.
In the same way, if you have Str 15, then you have Str 13, and therefore meet the "Str 13" feat prerequisite for Power Attack.
However, spellcasting ability is not inclusive: it is possible (mainly through the use of spell-like abilities) to be able to cast 3rd-level spells but not 2nd-level spells. If you can only cast 3rd-level spells, that does not meet the requirement of "able to cast 2nd-level spells."
Likewise, feat prerequisites are not inclusive, as it is possible for a creature to have a feat without meeting that feat's prerequisites. For example, a ranger can select Precise Shot as a ranger bonus feat without having the Point Blank Shot feat; he does not meet the prerequisites for Far Shot (which has Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite) because he doesn't actually have the Point Blank Shot feat, even though he has a feat that lists Point Blank Shot as a prerequisite.
So it seems I was wrong.
On a side note, I find extremely funny that I'm the only capable of remember this faq. Maybe because I do homework, after all. Someone maybe want to note it, just in case some other ask and instead of babbling, you can point out to the faq, saying "hey dude, maybe you forgot that faq" instead of babbling.