# Mythic Math Check Needed

### Rules Questions

Meet Kreig:

Kreig is a 9th level Paladin of the Holy Light, Tier 3 Guardian.

He has a Strength of 25, Mythic Power Attack and Mythic Vital Strike.

He wields a +2 Large sized Bastard Sword (he has the Exotic weapon proficiency and wields it in two hands).

At 9th level he took the Legendary Weapon mythic power twice (using both his Path ability and his Mythic feat) to turn his favorite weapon into a Minor Artifact and added the Foe Biting quality to it.

Foe Biting wrote:
Foe-Biting: When this item deals damage, its user can use mythic power to double the total amount of damage it deals. If the attack is a normal attack, the bearer can expend one use of legendary power to double the total amount of damage. If the attack is a confirmed critical hit, the bearer must instead expend two uses of legendary power to double the total damage. Damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) and precision-based damage are also doubled. This ability can be applied only to weapons. An item must be a minor or major artifact to have this ability.

So now the math that Kreig hits with is pretty ridiculous. It seems like it might not work the way we think it does.

Here's Kreig's math. Can any of you smart rules people break this down and tell us if we're doing anything wrong?

4d8+4 Base weapon damage while Vital Striking (+2 Large bastard sword)

+10 Strength Damage (str mod +7, two handing)

+13 damage, Mythic Power Attack (base +9, and two handing)

Mythic Vital Strike doubles both the strength damage (+20) and the power attack damage (+26), bringing the total so far to:

4d8+50

+18 damage is added from Smite (level 9 Paladin, doubled by Mythic Vital Strike)

+2 damage from Aura of Light (+1 base, doubled by Mythic Vital Strike)

Total so far:

4d8+70

Let's assume Kreig hits with this pile of math. Then, he spends a Mythic point to use Foe Biter. Damage is now:

8d8+140

Then, Kreig spends another Mythic point to take an additional Standard action (from Amazing Initiative, tier 2 ability). He uses it to Vital Strike again.

Kreig's new damage total (assuming he hits with both attacks), for the cost of 3 Mythic points and 1 use of Smite, is now:

16d8+280

Is this math correct? Are we doing something wrong?

Seems about right with one change

When you use the mythic power for foe biter the calculation is (4d8+70)*2.you don't roll the dice again...you double the result of the total damage...but its not a huge deal either

So unless there's something in there that isn't normally multiplied on a grit then you're good from what I can tell

He is a mythic character at only level 9 at higher than tier one it seems...hes a paladin...seems right

It's correct. Krieg really needs to take a look at the actual wording of Mythic Vital Strike, and then find a way to get enlarged. That will take the base damage from 2d8+35 to 3d8+37, but on a Mythic Vital Strike it's 6d8+111, in your scenario with a second hit and Foe-Biting it adds up to 24d8+444.

Mythic Vital Strike text wrote:
Whenever you use [a Vital Strike feat], multiply the [bonuses that would normally be multiplied on a critical hit] by the number of weapon damage dice you roll for that feat.

So, the more dice of damage your weapon has, the higher your multiplier.

I'm pretty sure this is not actually what the writer intended, but without errata, this IS what it actually tells you to do.

(It probably should say to multiply by "the number of times you roll your weapon damage", or perhaps even "by 2 for Vital Strike, 3 for Improved, and 4 for Greater".)

@Tvarog

It was clarified in another thread I believe...I will look for it

Your weapons damage dice isn't counted separately by the die count...but by how many of the weapons "damage dice" you roll

2d6 is 2 dice but in game terms its one damage dice of the weapon

Doomed Hero wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Here's Kreig's math. Can any of you smart rules people break this down and tell us if we're doing anything wrong?

{4d8+4 Base weapon damage while Vital Striking (+2 Large bastard sword)]

The part I put in brackets is wrong, Vital strike only double the dice not the + of the weapon so it would be 4d8+2.

Also Foe Biting I don't think works with vital strike as Vital strike is not a normal attack. You can do one or the other but not both.

I am not even going to try and do the rest of the math as mythic power attack and vital strike are a bit confusing. As some people feel it is RAW is broken and need revised or cleared up. see as Drakkiel comment above about the damage dice. a lot of people interpenetrated by the number of dice.

but to my understanding mythic is supposed to be a game of rocket tag who ever gets the first full attack or full attack equivalent will more then likely win. It you want to keep it balanced never give your character more then 2 mythic ranks use it as a flavor adder. If you feel mythic vital strike is over powering, you can give mythic monster the blocking ability, and they can block one attack around. kind of kills the ability.

I think the line about normal attack in foe biting is in reference to just a hit or a criticial hit dunce it explains the differnce

Now that I think about it though...in PF if you double something twice you triple it...I don't know if it should or should not apply here

If so you would take anything doubled by mythic VS and simply add in the original numbers a 3rd time when using Foe Biting

Drakkiel wrote:

@Tvarog

It was clarified in another thread I believe...I will look for it

Your weapons damage dice isn't counted separately by the die count...but by how many of the weapons "damage dice" you roll

2d6 is 2 dice but in game terms its one damage dice of the weapon

To my knowledge, that has never been clarified, and is such an abuse of the English language that only errata would suffice to fix it. That said, pretty much everybody plays it the way you describe, including myself, so they probably won't bother to fix it. I mean, behemoth hippo-shaping druids getting like a 12x or more multiplier to their already amazing bite is pretty much the definition of absurd.

Everything right except the Foe Biter. Remember the rules on multiplying. All multipliers are applied to the base number, not on the final product. So double *2 is equivalent to *3 not *4. When you double an alrready doubled number, you add again the base number, not the doubled total. Ex, 5 *2 =10. When doubling again, you add 5 damage so total is 15.

So in this case is 4d8+70*2 = 6d8+135.

Also, when calculating mythic vital strike, simply add everything first then double the total (except extra dices) instead of doubling each thing individually then summing. Exactly as if you were rolling a crit.

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It was not "clarified". It was justified in sloppy wording based on a torturous interpretation that no rational English-speaker could accept as the actual meaning of the words printed in the feat text.

Now, I did say that the way it's worded probably is not the way it was intended (and even gave a few different possible wordings that are better than what's there now). I agree that it currently is significantly stronger than what the writer(s) intended. However, sloppy reading does not excuse sloppy writing. It needs to be either errata'ed or accepted as written, like many other bits and bobs in this system.

Similarly, the Foe-Biting mythic property actually does double the damage. Read the wording:

Foe-biting wrote:
When this item deals damage, its user can use mythic power to double the total amount of damage it deals.

That's not increasing the multiplier, that is dealing *double the total amount of damage*. Explicitly. There is no other reasonable way to read that text.

If that is not what was intended, then the wording needs to be fixed so that it matches the intent. Again, sloppy reading does not excuse sloppy writing. The rules do what they explicitly say they do. If you want more justification for why that would actually do twice the damage, remember the PF override philosophy: specific overrides general. In general, double a double equals a triple. In this case, you double *everything*, not just the base damage. More specific means the ability wording takes precedence.

bear in mind you need to be at least tier 4 to have a foe biting weapon, (must be at least a minor artifact) which uses two mythic feats. if only tier 4, the 4th tier path ability must be for an extra mythic feat, since you don't get a feat at 4th tier.

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Keep it down Tvarog. Rules are extremely clear

CRB wrote:

Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

Doesn't amtter when the damage is being multiplied, i before the attack is declare, when the attack connects, or when you use an ability after the hit connect. So if you crit a longsword mythic vital stike with foebiter you deal *4 of the base damage not 8 times the base damage.

I see a couple problems with this build. First, Dekalinder is correct on the damage the attack should do and this can be verified all over the forums with a few searches and just a smidgen of common sense. Second, it looks like your player has three mythic feats at 3rd tier (Mythic power attack, mythic vital strike, and extra path ability mythic). If this character had taken legendary item as a path ability at teir 1 or 2 then this would be doable.

Also there is no need to be tier 4 to have a foe-biting weapon:

Legendary Item (Ex): You gain a legendary item. This item grants a number of abilities equal to your tier (maximum 3). At 3rd tier, you can select this ability again, increasing the maximum to six abilities and causing the item to become a lesser artifact. At 6th tier, you can select this ability again, increasing the maximum to 10 abilities; the item then becomes a greater artifact.

Foe-Biting: When this item deals damage, its user can use mythic power to double the total amount of damage it deals. If the attack is a normal attack, the bearer can expend one use of legendary power to double the total amount of damage. If the attack is a confirmed critical hit, the bearer must instead expend two uses of legendary power to double the total damage. Damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) and precision-based damage are also doubled.

This ability can be applied only to weapons. An item must be a minor or major artifact to have this ability.

I apologize if any of my phrasing came across as overly harsh. I have advocated for years that the rules need more precise editing to avoid exactly this sort of situation.

In the meantime, yes, I do understand the rules that are written and published. They are in fact extremely clear (even though what they clearly say is frequently not what was intended, which is likely the case here). I also understand that many people interpret "double the total amount of damage" as something other than "find the total amount of damage (using normal rules for doing so), and then double that number". That continues to not be what the ability says.

The key wording here is "total amount" in the text of Mythic Vital Strike, right along with "total the results" in the text you quoted. Foe-Biting doubles the damage after you "total the results", because only then do you have the "total amount" to double. Specific overrides general. Anything else is a house rule, and house rules are perfectly fine. RAW and RAI conflict all the time, and not every game has to be run by RAW. However, please at least be honest that that's what you're doing.

Chernobyl, "Legendary Item" is a path ability, not a mythic feat. As worded, you'd only need to be Mythic Tier 3 for Foe-Biting.

This is exactly why I thought it would be a good idea to take this situation up with the boards.

A quick clarification: Foe Biting can be taken at 3rd tier. It's a path ability with no other prerequisites. He used his path ability to gain Legendary Item, and then used his 3rd tier feat to take Extra Path Ability to gain it again.

The wording on Foe Biting is pretty clear about "doubling the total amount" and not just treating it like upping the crit multiplier by one.

That being said, nearly all other cases of "doubling" actually just mean increasing the crit multiplier, so the precedent is there. I really don't know which is correct.

Was this covered at all in the playtest? I searched the boards but couldn't find any other instances of this situation. Seems odd that it wouldn't have come up.

Tvarog wrote:

I apologize if any of my phrasing came across as overly harsh. I have advocated for years that the rules need more precise editing to avoid exactly this sort of situation.

In the meantime, yes, I do understand the rules that are written and published. They are in fact extremely clear (even though what they clearly say is frequently not what was intended, which is likely the case here). I also understand that many people interpret "double the total amount of damage" as something other than "find the total amount of damage (using normal rules for doing so), and then double that number". That continues to not be what the ability says.

The key wording here is "total amount" in the text of Mythic Vital Strike, right along with "total the results" in the text you quoted. Foe-Biting doubles the damage after you "total the results", because only then do you have the "total amount" to double. Specific overrides general. Anything else is a house rule, and house rules are perfectly fine. RAW and RAI conflict all the time, and not every game has to be run by RAW. However, please at least be honest that that's what you're doing.

Chernobyl, "Legendary Item" is a path ability, not a mythic feat. As worded, you'd only need to be Mythic Tier 3 for Foe-Biting.

Well there's a universal ability that you can take multiple times to gain extra mythic feats, and there's a feat you can take once that gives you an extra path ability, so they're nearly interchangable.

But I was wrong about 4th tier, I was misremembering the 3rd/4th tier wording on the second legendary item ability.

as an aside on legendary items, there's very few abilities you can take as the first two item abilities, most of them require minor or major artifact status.

Dekalinder wrote:

Keep it down Tvarog. Rules are extremely clear

CRB wrote:

Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

Doesn't amtter when the damage is being multiplied, i before the attack is declare, when the attack connects, or when you use an ability after the hit connect. So if you crit a longsword mythic vital stike with foebiter you deal *4 of the base damage not 8 times the base damage.

Thanks for this citation. That pretty much clears up my confusion.

Dekalinder wrote:

Keep it down Tvarog. Rules are extremely clear

CRB wrote:

Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.

Doesn't amtter when the damage is being multiplied, i before the attack is declare, when the attack connects, or when you use an ability after the hit connect. So if you crit a longsword mythic vital stike with foebiter you deal *4 of the base damage not 8 times the base damage.

Actually in this specific case it does.

Foe-Biting: When this item deals damage, its user can use mythic power to double the total amount of damage it deals. If the attack is a normal attack, the bearer can expend one use of legendary power to double the total amount of damage. If the attack is a confirmed critical hit, the bearer must instead expend two uses of legendary power to double the total damage. Damage from weapon special abilities (such as flaming) and precision-based damage are also doubled.

If it worked like a normal double it wouldn't need the bolded part. In fact your way makes it a "tax" to use it on a crit and in that case it'd never be worth it to use on a crit.

So in your example it would be x 8, or rather double the value of the times 4.

Think this is complicated enough to warrant an FAQ request?

To me no I don't, but the wording seems very clear to me. It's different than say charging with a mounted Lance and even tells you that to get the double on a crit you pay more.

If it worked like the other posters say then never ever use it on a crit because you pay more for nothing. Save it and use it on 2 other hits.