With all the spells that can bring someone back to life, do you think that death has become just anothe problem that can be fixed?
Sure, it doesn't bring someone back if dead by old age and most spells have quite the price to pay, such as high caster levels, negative levels, Constitution drain and limited time limit, but the fact that the ability to resurrect exists does beg the question if death still has the same impact.
You kill a villain, but it can be revived for round 2 later on.
You succumb to a disease or poison, but you can be revived healthy.
Your comrades die into battle, but they can be revived without mourning their deaths.
See where I'm getting at?
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Absolutely.
One of my major problems with the system is that death is easily reversed and doesn't mean anything.
There is a PFS scenario where a major character gets killed and stays dead. Why? Under the rules any settlement of reasonable size (including the one where he got killed) will have someone who can cast raise dead. So it's ridiculous that he wouldn't be able to just pop back to life. Anyone playing that scenario didn't think "Oh my god they killed him off!" they thought "Erm... can't we just fetch a cleric?"
I would much rather have a system whereby any form of resurrection is at least an 8th or (preferably) 9th level spell. To compensate for that there should be spells available that prevent you from dying for x number of rounds. That would be a better system for me.
Not sure how I feel about this in general. Player-death isn't all that common, in my (personal) experience. I've played with DM's before that simply house-ruled death as final and disallowed the spells in question. Worked out fine.
It takes a certain sort of group to be able to do that without significant angst, but it certainly makes combat seem like a more compelling event, and it can encourage players to think "around" encounters, rather than "through" them.
It's much easier to change the dynamics this way in homebrew campaigns than in modules, certainly.
|
Whenever a death is followed by resurrection in my party, I always bring the character back with a negative trait. For example, when our wizard plunged into a pit of boiling lava and the party resurrected him a few sessions later, he had a dread wraith attached to him and could only remove it through a very specific ritual. The wraith would randomly possess the guy -- and by "random" I mean at the most inopportune times possible -- and they'd have to fight it off to get the wizard back under control.
Are dread wraiths technically capable of doing that? Eh, who cares. We had lots of fun with it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I hear this argument about people dieing and just, hey get a cleric and bring them back to life, but I think it ignores the reality of Golarion or the world Pathfinder is created in. It is taken for a fact that these souls go somewhere else and when you die you go to a place that is in harmony with your soul. To be removed from that would be painful and traumatic event (Buffy the Vampire Slayer really played this out well), I would say most people would not chose to come back to a world of pain and uncertainty. The PCs do, because, well, the PCs are special.
Me, when I GM, death is more of a problem for the "playing" aspect. When someone dies they are no longer playing and participating, I find that to be a huge barrier for engagement. When people are of low levels not as much of an issue, because character creation is typically quicker. When they are higher not as much, so having someone sit out and make a new character becomes a very unattractive proposition.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Absolutely.
One of my major problems with the system is that death is easily reversed and doesn't mean anything.
There is a PFS scenario where a major character gets killed and stays dead. Why? Under the rules any settlement of reasonable size (including the one where he got killed) will have someone who can cast raise dead. So it's ridiculous that he wouldn't be able to just pop back to life. Anyone playing that scenario didn't think "Oh my god they killed him off!" they thought "Erm... can't we just fetch a cleric?"
I would much rather have a system whereby any form of resurrection is at least an 8th or (preferably) 9th level spell. To compensate for that there should be spells available that prevent you from dying for x number of rounds. That would be a better system for me.
From a verisimilitude PoV, I'd probably suggest tightening up the time limits on when the lower level death reversal spells can be used. If you could only use Raise Dead within Caster Levels rounds of the person's death, it would solve the question of why dying is still a problem for high-level people. Unless the cleric's right there and has everything he needs...
It would make Raise Dead seem a bit less miraculous, and more "He wasn't completely dead, only mostly dead." Which could be a plus or minus, depending on your opinion.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I actually don't see the problems others have with raise type magic.
-It generally requires 9th+ level casters, so we're already in fairly crazy land for what can be done magically.
-The individual has to want to come back, which many won't.
-It's crazy expensive unless you have a kingdom or adventurer level budget. Bob the farmer might want to bring his wife back, but his 5 sp of on-hand cash doesn't help him get the required diamond, even if his church is willing to cast the actual spell for free.
-Let's say the king is assassinated. Break out the treasury and have him raised, right? What if his heir doesn't want that? The kid's the new king, maybe he think dad should enjoy his heavenly reward and let junior do the ruling.
So for adventurers, death is a minor inconvenience. This is a good thing as it prevent a player from having to sit out or make a new character who may be less invested in the ongoing plotline. Even Conan in the 80s movie was returned from the dead, and that's a fairly low-magic setting.
For NPCs, there are all sorts of ways to justify why they might not be raised. It's up to the GM to decide if they need to come back.
Also Assassins make it pretty tough for people to be brought back. Destroying the body pushes you to even more expensive and higher level spells.
Sometimes you get a character really integrated into the plot, he's a mover and shaker, his personal backstory is starting to show as the DM puts an adventure in his homeland with his personal villain...and he dies. Putting in a completely fresh character without those ties you've already developed can kinda suck, or even if you put someone in whose backstory ties them as much into the plot, he still wasn't actually around for all those moments in the campaign.
Anyway, it's not personally a deal-breaker for me. I'd still play a game where resurrection magic doesn't exist.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Define "become"...I played a campaign in second edition where I died near or just over 20 times and wasn't the pc with the highest death toll. This isn't anything remotely new.
|
I think it can cause problems by leading to a divergence between player expectations and GM expectations. I find that a lot of players have the feeling that if something is in the CRB, it's *supposed* to be in the game. And that's perfectly understandable.
But there are a lot of plots that relatively-easy resurrection magic causes problems with. For example, I'm planning to run a game that starts with the assassination of an Elven king. If resurrection is ubiquitous (at least for the for the rich and powerful), not only is the plot easy to solve, but nobody would have even bothered to assassinate him in the first place
As a GM, it's important for me to make it perfectly clear which ways I am going to be deviating from the core rules. In my case, since my characters are only level 8, I'm going to mostly keep magic as-is and have the assassin go through a bit more trouble to ensure that the king stays dead.
But I also don't really want to permanently kill PCs off in this campaign without the players' permission, so I've given them access to a scroll or two of resurrection magic at lower than usual levels. But I'm also using some "twists" like Crank does to keep player death meaningful without it being permanent. So far, the party wizard has been resurrected, and now he's haunted by a Nosoi who feels like it's messed up its job and is trying to get him re-killed. :)
What do you mean become? Spells that bring you back from the dead have been part of this game since its inception...If you want to say it is an issue for you in your game, sure, I can understand that even if its not my playstyle. But its not a new thing.
|
|
Yeah raise dead and especially resurrection have never sat particularly well with me. My table is ok with PC death. We tend to play a real tight combat as war, fantasy quagmire type game. If you died its usually because things went south and sometimes that happens to heroes.
The advent of hero points has made raise dead and resurrection completely pointless for us. Now the players have a resource they can protect their characters from death with. I will admit the game is swingy and not all PC deaths are due to poor choices. If you cant manage to stay alive with hero points then it just wasn’t meant to be.
One idea I had floating in my head for folks who could live with a fluff explanation is change raise dead and resurrections names. Make it that the character is for all intents and purposes dead but the soul hasn’t quite completed its journey. Magic of extraordinary power has the ability to return a soul to this plane. I don’t know maybe it could work.
If I was to make a homebrew I would re-flavor raise dead and resurrection in a pet cemetery way. You can bring someone back from the dead but they are irrevocably changed in terrible ways. I would also play up magic as evil and soul/sanity corrupting to make magic more interesting. Playing with fire if you will. I understand these days though evil is actually good being en vogue so not sure I could find people who would be down with it.
There's nothing that a determined assassin can't work around fairly cheaply.
If you want to eliminate someone rich/powerful/etc. You just kill them and then raise them as a skeleton or zombie. Nearly nothing can bring back someone so long as they are undead.
This would then either result in giving up on bringing back the person after failed attempts or (better yet) a quest to find and destroy the undead corpse to allow resurrection.
I solve the problem but just saying No, unless everyone loved the character so much that they want the focus of the next campaign to be going on a quest to bring them back to life, because that's what it should take.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Look at it from the other end. Reversible death is what makes all those wildly dangerous monsters, traps, and stunts possible in the first place.
Do you, in real life, strap on a sword and go adventuring? Heck no--only a suicidal madman would do something so insanely dangerous, in a world where death is permanent.
*looks down at his retired military ID*
Um...yes? Assuming we replace sword with rifle. ;)
Although to be fair, adventuring is significantly more dangerous than your average day in most first-world military outfits.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rifles are OP though, why fear death when you can ignore a tank's armor when you're within 30 feet of it ;P
In regards to raise dead, I use the "base value" of a settlement to help determine what types of diamonds are available--as if they were magic items. If you are nowhere near a large city then you have a time limit to get to one and find a large diamond. Even then there is a 25% chance you won't find one for a week.
In regards to resurrection, if you have access to high level magic then I expect that death is not something you fear. However, you still need to find a big fat diamond.
Then there is reincarnation, and those oils are pretty ubiquitous so I usually waive the 75% to find them. However, druids are not so ubiquitous.
Finally, DM fiat. I try and read the player's body language (or outright language), and if they are upset about their character's death then the means to thwart death will most likely present itself. Otherwise everybody is happy and having fun.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
* People returned to life with Reincarnation arise in a young adult body. The spell can bring back people who died of old age.
* There are quite a few ways to prevent someone from being raised from the dead. An assassination plot can center on the question "Why did the Raise Dead spell fail? Who's blocking it?"
* People have to be willing to come back. Thoroughly Good characters go to a nice heavenly afterlife. They might prefer not to come back to this vale of tears. Adventurers are funky because they often die in the middle of something they want to finish.
HOWEVER: evil souls go to nasty planes. They might be MUCH more willing to escape their afterlives. So those Raise Dead spells are more likely to succeed. A disturbing thought.
Raise dead costs a lot of money. Assassinating a King is still a viable act, not just because the heirs might be happy to leave him dead, but because death still hurts, and the cost is probably higher than hiring replacements for the guards a more conventional attack might kill.
Proper assassins specialize in making sure the target stays dead: The Assassin prestige class makes raise dead more difficult, and the Red Mantis Assassins get to know when someone comes back, and they will keep killing him, for free, until he decides to stay dead.
Also, death effects or destroying/hiding the body make raise dead impossible, requiring resurrection or true resurrection. Finding a 13th or 17th level caster willing to help you out is even more difficult.
Reincarnation is easier, but has a bunch of problems that come with having a new body. It would not be acceptable for a King, for instance.
I guess what I'm saying is it's a bigger problem in theory than in practice.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I actually don't see the problems others have with raise type magic.
-It generally requires 9th+ level casters, so we're already in fairly crazy land for what can be done magically.
A facility which (under the rules) is available in any town with more than a couple of thousand inhabitants isn't exactly rare or unusual. It's pretty much as common as having a cinema is in our world.
-The individual has to want to come back, which many won't.
I get that some people are ready for death but most people aren't and want to do more. Otherwise how do you explain the popularity of Sun Orchard Elixir in Golarion?
-It's crazy expensive unless you have a kingdom or adventurer level budget. Bob the farmer might want to bring his wife back, but his 5 sp of on-hand cash doesn't help him get the required diamond, even if his church is willing to cast the actual spell for free.
I get that Joe Bloggs the farmer isn't going to get raised, that's obvious. But "kingdom level wealth" isn't necessary to get 5,000 GP's worth of wealth. A galley full of wheat works out at being 3,000gps for the cargo alone, the same galley full of iron is a whopping 30,000gps.
Or put it this way. A luxurious suite at an inn is 32gps a day. if it were occupied for only half a year that's enough money to pay for a raise dead. Just for one suite. Even an average quality inn with say 12 decent rooms can clear over 7,000gps a year quite easily.
So successful business owners can afford this kind of expense easily. That doesn't even touch nobility.
-Let's say the king is assassinated. Break out the treasury and have him raised, right? What if his heir doesn't want that? The kid's the new king, maybe he think dad should enjoy his heavenly reward and let junior do the ruling.
Sure that's a possibility. But equally possible is that the cunning king has already pre paid for a raise dead. Or maybe the heir doesn't want to rule just yet? Or plain loves his father? All those are equally likely.
So for adventurers, death is a minor inconvenience. This is a good thing as it prevent a player from having to sit out or make a new character who may be less invested in the ongoing plotline. Even Conan in the 80s movie was returned from the dead, and that's a fairly low-magic setting.
And rare. In the movie it was a plot point, a major focus of a substantial part of the story.
Raising the dead in Pathfinder on the other hand is a simple case of visiting a decent sized town. Meh.
Worse it cheapens death. Death should not be a minor annoyance. In Pathfinder it is.
For NPCs, there are all sorts of ways to justify why they might not be raised. It's up to the GM to decide if they need to come back.
Sure but verisimilitude must be maintained. If a merchant can do it why not (say) a Baron with significant resources and many friends?
As a GM I can make up whatever rules I like but they have to be consistent with the setting I place them in.
This is like Final Fantasy VII. Aeris dies (I'd say spoiler but seriously the spoiler statute of limitations has expired on this one by now.) So why don't you just use phoenix down?
Because reasons, that's why.
If you make Resurrection this easy to obtain then it is part of the metaphysics of the world. In that case anything you do to try to hand wave that is irrelevant. That is simply how the world works.
I can make up excuses as to why not but at the end of the day that's not addressing the issue. It's the world building equivalent of healing a decapitation with a band aid.
It's not handwaving: raise dead is hard. And, as part of the world, you're right than canny murderers will do things like steal jawbones to prevent speak with dead from turning up a witness. And clergy can, and will, use it as leverage to affect the behavior of the ruling elite.
Is it too easy? I don't think so, but if you do, you can just add a zero to the cost (putting it out of reach of most NPCs), or ban the spells entirely.
HOWEVER: evil souls go to nasty planes. They might be MUCH more willing to escape their afterlives. So those Raise Dead spells are more likely to succeed. A disturbing thought.
On the other hand, evil types are less likely to have friends who want them to come back from the dead. Then there is the question of who is calling them back from the dead -- a good person who is quite content to remain in the afterlife would probably accept being raised if the person raising him is his best friend who promised not to raise him except in dire need, and an evil person might refurse to be raised by Thag the Torturer on the grounds that he is far better at his job than the fiends currently tormenting him. Those factors should balance things out a bit.
Are their rules concerning the availability of 5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp diamonds (as well as other gems and treasures)?
If 5,000 gp diamonds are simply just available no matter the size of the settlement, then would it not follow that 25,000 gp diamonds can also be found in the smallest of hamlets?
Absolutely.
One of my major problems with the system is that death is easily reversed and doesn't mean anything.
There is a PFS scenario where a major character gets killed and stays dead. Why? Under the rules any settlement of reasonable size (including the one where he got killed) will have someone who can cast raise dead. So it's ridiculous that he wouldn't be able to just pop back to life. Anyone playing that scenario didn't think "Oh my god they killed him off!" they thought "Erm... can't we just fetch a cleric?"
I would much rather have a system whereby any form of resurrection is at least an 8th or (preferably) 9th level spell. To compensate for that there should be spells available that prevent you from dying for x number of rounds. That would be a better system for me.
Agreed, except for the last part. I think revivification should either be impossible, or require a major quest of the 'go into the underworld and have to find and rescue the person', Orpheus style.
To compensate, death should be a rare event for a protagonist, something best done as an plot element decided upon by the GM and player together so it's an event with emotion. And before someone gets on me for some 'takes all the challenge out' thing, there are other ways to fail besides dying.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have had this discussion many times on these boards and elsewhere. I have always found the ability to raise somewhat problematic as written. Death is not permanent enough and is less of a motivator than it is in our world. Here's how I deal with raising the dead in my homebrew of Morvia.
1. You can only be raised by a priest of your faith. Therefore a cleric of one god cannot raise someone who venerates another god.
2. A life for a life. If you are resurrected or raised, there has to be a cost of a life. The thing is, you don't know who that will be. When you're raised, someone, somewhere will be chosen to take your place. It may be someone you know, or it may be a complete stranger. They may be an evil king or an innocent child. That's the price that must be paid. This becomes a heavy decision and brings back the permanence of death.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
I have had this discussion many times on these boards and elsewhere. I have always found the ability to raise somewhat problematic as written. Death is not permanent enough and is less of a motivator than it is in our world. Here's how I deal with raising the dead in my homebrew of Morvia.
1. You can only be raised by a priest of your faith. Therefore a cleric of one god cannot raise someone who venerates another god.
2. A life for a life. If you are resurrected or raised, there has to be a cost of a life. The thing is, you don't know who that will be. When you're raised, someone, somewhere will be chosen to take your place. It may be someone you know, or it may be a complete stranger. They may be an evil king or an innocent child. That's the price that must be paid. This becomes a heavy decision and brings back the permanence of death.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
Evil would be very pleased with that arrangement. Suffering of strangers is their bread and butter.
|
|
It's not handwaving: raise dead is hard. And, as part of the world, you're right than canny murderers will do things like steal jawbones to prevent speak with dead from turning up a witness. And clergy can, and will, use it as leverage to affect the behavior of the ruling elite.
Is it too easy? I don't think so, but if you do, you can just add a zero to the cost (putting it out of reach of most NPCs), or ban the spells entirely.
The problem with making it more expensive or banning them is that the system is built with the assumption that raise dead is available. It gets to crazy levels of dangerous if these spells are not available.
The only way to remove them is to rewrite the system. I've tried making these spells more difficult to obtain, it doesn't work.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
For all those complaining Raise dead is too easy:Oh yeah.
Players: “Hey Bob, we have to go on a quest for about 4 nites of gaming in order to raise you, so I guess you can just stay home or you can play my Mount.”
Bob: “yeah, sounds like real fun. Look, instead- here’s Knuckles the 87th , go ahead and loot Knuckles the 86th body. He's got some cool stuff."
The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.
The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?
It's not handwaving: raise dead is hard. And, as part of the world, you're right than canny murderers will do things like steal jawbones to prevent speak with dead from turning up a witness. And clergy can, and will, use it as leverage to affect the behavior of the ruling elite.
Is it too easy? I don't think so, but if you do, you can just add a zero to the cost (putting it out of reach of most NPCs), or ban the spells entirely.
The problem with making it more expensive or banning them is that the system is built with the assumption that raise dead is available. It gets to crazy levels of dangerous if these spells are not available.
The only way to remove them is to rewrite the system. I've tried making these spells more difficult to obtain, it doesn't work.
Yeah, and that's one of my big problems with the system; I feel like the perspective it has on death in games is diametrically opposed to mine. I like to have death be relatively rare, but, for the most part, final. I have no problem with player death in climactic encounters at the end of an arc or even important subplot, but I think otherwise, it tends to be too anticlimactic. I do like having the threat of death present however, but for the most part, I feel like a moderately attentive cleric should be able to prevent PC death in most of those circumstances.
However, the system isn't really designed for that, too much. At higher levels, since attacks do more damage, that Negative Con Score is less of a buffer, meaning characters tend to die easily, but get raised easily as well, essentially the opposite of my philosophy
For all those complaining Raise dead is too easy:Oh yeah.
Players: “Hey Bob, we have to go on a quest for about 4 nites of gaming in order to raise you, so I guess you can just stay home or you can play my Mount.”
Bob: “yeah, sounds like real fun. Look, instead- here’s Knuckles the 87th , go ahead and loot Knuckles the 86th body. He's got some cool stuff."
The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.
The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?
There is a solution there in allowing breath of life style effects more liberally (since they keep party members who travel with a cleric alive), but restrict raise dead effects that occur for NPCs who would have to summon a cleric from across town or the next city over.
I think the system as written is probably about right, but it isn't impossible to adjust it without making Bob/Knuckles sit the night out.
|
|
For all those complaining Raise dead is too easy:Oh yeah.
Players: “Hey Bob, we have to go on a quest for about 4 nites of gaming in order to raise you, so I guess you can just stay home or you can play my Mount.”
Bob: “yeah, sounds like real fun. Look, instead- here’s Knuckles the 87th , go ahead and loot Knuckles the 86th body. He's got some cool stuff."
The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.
The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?
Only assuming your players are cheesy enough to do something like creating the same character over and over.
The only times I have seen that is Knights of the Dinner Table and the second Gamers movie they were supposed to be critical satire of this type of behaviour.
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
A facility which (under the rules) is available in any town with more than a couple of thousand inhabitants isn't exactly rare or unusual. It's pretty much as common as having a cinema is in our world.
I'm not sure I'd call the existence of one or two guys who are willing to cast spells of that level for money a "facility." We clearly have a different opinion of what constitutes "available spellcasting." I tend to have more a "Miracle Max's hut" view on buying spellcasting.
I get that some people are ready for death but most people aren't and want to do more. Otherwise how do you explain the popularity of Sun Orchard Elixir in Golarion?
Sure that's a possibility. But equally possible is that the cunning king has already pre paid for a raise dead. Or maybe the heir doesn't want to rule just yet? Or plain loves his...
But in those cases it's the GM making the conscious decision to bring an NPC back. I'm simply pointing out that there are all sorts of plausible reasons that death doesn't have to be a revolving door.
I get that Joe Bloggs the farmer isn't going to get raised, that's obvious. But "kingdom level wealth" isn't necessary to get 5,000 GP's worth of wealth. A galley full of wheat works out at being 3,000gps for the cargo alone, the same galley full of iron is a whopping 30,000gps.
Or put it this way. A luxurious suite at an inn is 32gps a day. if it were occupied for only half a year that's enough money to pay for a raise dead. Just for one suite. Even an average quality inn with say 12 decent rooms can clear over 7,000gps a year quite easily.
So successful business owners can afford this kind of expense easily. That doesn't even touch nobility.
Minus rent, supplies, wages, etc. That cargo hold with 30,000 gp worth of stuff probably cost the guy 29,900 gp after expenses. The game is not a business simulator, but a 5000 gp diamond is roughly about a million of our dollars, at least how I see the economy. Getting raised from the dead would be something that only millionaires could do, and it would financially ruin some of them.
Sure but verisimilitude must be maintained. If a merchant can do it why not (say) a Baron with significant resources and many friends?
Oh I agree, I'm just saying that it doesn't necessarily follow that all rich NPCs are instantly coming right back. There are a lot of ways to reserve it for plot important occasions, while still preserving verisimilitude.
A smart assassin know that no one cares about Baron Jerkface and he'll be one step up from rolled into a ditch, whereas King Honorsmile is beloved by all and may require extra measures to prevent from returning.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Only assuming your players are cheesy enough to do something like creating the same character over and over.
The only times I have seen that is Knights of the Dinner Table and the second Gamers movie they were supposed to be critical satire of this type of behaviour.
I remember players doing this when I was playing in High School. It isn't a super-mature way to play, but people do.
But that's getting sidetracked. So he replaces Knuckles the Monk with Jimbo the Fighter instead. The argument still applies. The point is that a character who is dead means a player who is not playing. That's bad. If raise dead is not available, then the only reasonable alternative is replacement characters. A epic quest to collect the Dragonballs or whatever SOUNDS cool, but it leaves Bob sitting there twiddling his thumbs.
I think the system as written is probably about right, but it isn't impossible to adjust it without making Bob/Knuckles sit the night out.
I'm thinking about just making death voluntary. If your PC is dropped to negative CON, he's just out cold so hard he can't be healed during combat, unless the player agrees that his PC kicks it.
Then ban revivification en toto.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For all those complaining Raise dead is too easy:Oh yeah.
Players: “Hey Bob, we have to go on a quest for about 4 nites of gaming in order to raise you, so I guess you can just stay home or you can play my Mount.”
Bob: “yeah, sounds like real fun. Look, instead- here’s Knuckles the 87th , go ahead and loot Knuckles the 86th body. He's got some cool stuff."
The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.
The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?
Another point is that the game isn't fun if there is no risk. None of my players like the raise dead merry-go-round it's just part of the game.
My players have just refused to have their 18th level characters raised. These players played their characters from 1st level but are refusing to have True Resurrection cast even though they know someone who can cast it. Why? Because they think that it is cheap. They would rather bring in new characters for 2 levels because they feel that the integrity of the game suffers from deus-ex-clerica.
Are their rules concerning the availability of 5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp diamonds (as well as other gems and treasures)?
If 5,000 gp diamonds are simply just available no matter the size of the settlement, then would it not follow that 25,000 gp diamonds can also be found in the smallest of hamlets?
Yes, there are. In Ultimate Equipment there is a random gem generator.
According to it, diamonds over 6,500gp don't exist. Onyx maxing out at 65gp in value also makes getting those high end animate dead castings pretty much impossible.
Are their rules concerning the availability of 5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp diamonds (as well as other gems and treasures)?
If 5,000 gp diamonds are simply just available no matter the size of the settlement, then would it not follow that 25,000 gp diamonds can also be found in the smallest of hamlets?
Yes, there are. In Ultimate Equipment there is a random gem generator.
According to it, diamonds over 6,500gp don't exist. Onyx for raise dead is even worse off.
Indeed! When we need a diamond larger than 6500gp it's time for a journey to the elemental plane of Earth and a quest to find such a massive treasure.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Are their rules concerning the availability of 5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp diamonds (as well as other gems and treasures)?
If 5,000 gp diamonds are simply just available no matter the size of the settlement, then would it not follow that 25,000 gp diamonds can also be found in the smallest of hamlets?
Yes, there are. In Ultimate Equipment there is a random gem generator.
According to it, diamonds over 6,500gp don't exist. Onyx maxing out at 65gp in value also makes getting those high end animate dead castings pretty much impossible.
By that logic casting fireball is impossible because bat guano never shows up in treasure.
No, fictional work gives you PERCEIVED danger to the protagonist, but never follows through. RPGs kill off the protagonist on one bad roll of the die.
Close. Fiction can have multiple protagonists (e.g. 'heist' style stories generally have a group of people). One or more of them can die before the end of the story, as long as someone survives.
Or in other cases, there is some 'turnover' in the cast, to the point of having no original characters by the end of the story (the British version of Being Human, for instance.)
Death is okay. The problem with death in RPGs isn't storytelling (though with too much of it, it can be.) It's having players with no character to play in a slow-moving medium. We're talking about a game where fights take hours, and stories take weeks or months of long sessions. Realistically, if Bob's character dies, the answer needs to be the Cleric saying 'I prep raise dead in the morning.' or a replacement character integrated ASAP, or it isn't fair to Bob.
I like to have death be relatively rare, but, for the most part, final.
So you have two choices:
Either the player brings in a new PC, which break continuity and adds wealth to the party, or the player has to sit out until next campaign?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like to have death be relatively rare, but, for the most part, final.So you have two choices:
Either the player brings in a new PC, which break continuity and adds wealth to the party, or the player has to sit out until next campaign?
The first is not a particularly troublesome issue.
By that logic casting fireball is impossible because bat guano never shows up in treasure.Are their rules concerning the availability of 5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp diamonds (as well as other gems and treasures)?
If 5,000 gp diamonds are simply just available no matter the size of the settlement, then would it not follow that 25,000 gp diamonds can also be found in the smallest of hamlets?
Yes, there are. In Ultimate Equipment there is a random gem generator.
According to it, diamonds over 6,500gp don't exist. Onyx maxing out at 65gp in value also makes getting those high end animate dead castings pretty much impossible.
That would be true if not for the existence of the spell component pouch and eschew materials feat. Obtaining either one of those specifically gets you past that limitation.
Essentially, the game makes it impossible to find a diamond of extreme value as random treasure. As Democratus put it, it would have to be specifically sought after, as a quest or some such.