Only assuming your players are cheesy enough to do something like creating the same character over and over.
The only times I have seen that is Knights of the Dinner Table and the second Gamers movie they were supposed to be critical satire of this type of behaviour.
I remember players doing this when I was playing in High School. It isn't a super-mature way to play, but people do.
But that's getting sidetracked. So he replaces Knuckles the Monk with Jimbo the Fighter instead. The argument still applies. The point is that a character who is dead means a player who is not playing. That's bad. If raise dead is not available, then the only reasonable alternative is replacement characters. A epic quest to collect the Dragonballs or whatever SOUNDS cool, but it leaves Bob sitting there twiddling his thumbs.
Right. If a PC dies there are three choices:
1. Raise dead, etc2. New PC- which causes continuity problems, and in many cases, makes the new PC more powerful
3. The player sits out for the rest of the campaign.
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I like to have death be relatively rare, but, for the most part, final.So you have two choices:
Either the player brings in a new PC, which break continuity and adds wealth to the party, or the player has to sit out until next campaign?
OK the second one is silly. No-one is suggesting that outside Dark Dungeons.
The first one takes some management and doesn't break continuity unless you let it.
Neither is worse than immortal heroes.
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As a component under 1gp in price, bat Guano is under components and therefore covered.
That would be true if not for the existence of the spell component pouch and eschew materials feat. Obtaining either one of those specifically gets you past that limitation.
The price is not relevant. There are lots of > 1 gp spell components and focuses that do not appear on random treasure tables. And spell component pouches aren't random treasure either. You buy them in shops. (Or take them off dead wizards, who bought it in a shop.)
Arguing that a 5,000 gp gemstone cannot exist because it does not appear on a random gemstone table is logically equivalent to saying that knucklebones for augury don't exist or that bat guano for fireball doesn't exist. Those things clearly exist, so the assertion must in invalid. We can infer that a 5,000 gp diamond is available in a similar fashion to a spell component pouch or a 25 gp set of knucklebones: you buy it or take it as non-random treasure off someone who did.
Essentially, the game makes it impossible to find a diamond of extreme value as random treasure. As Democratus put it, it would have to be specifically sought after, as a quest or some such.
You don't need to get in as random treasure, or as the MacGuffin in a quest. You go to a jeweler's in a city with a high wealth limit.
The first is not a particularly troublesome issue.I like to have death be relatively rare, but, for the most part, final.So you have two choices:
Either the player brings in a new PC, which break continuity and adds wealth to the party, or the player has to sit out until next campaign?
Zhayne? Yes, but have you not said in your games just about the only time a PC dies is when his player wants him to die?
Your games are very heavily houseruled, if what you post is true. That's not a Bad Thing, by any means, but it does mean that your game interaction is different than many other tables.
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It was NEVER a particularly troublesome issue, not from the original Red Box forward.
If the extra wealth is an issue, you just erase some loot from the upcoming encounter(s).
As a component under 1gp in price, bat Guano is under components and therefore covered.The price is not relevant. There are lots of > 1 gp spell components and focuses that do not appear on random treasure tables.
Arguing that a 5,000 gp gemstone cannot exist because it does not appear on a random gemstone table is logically equivalent to saying that knucklebones for augury don't exist or that bat guano for fireball doesn't exist.
That's...not logically equivalent.
Since the spell component pouch says you have ALL the necessary components, you have ALL the necessary components.
So, since the spell component pouch exists, and contains all the necessary components, by extension any of the necessary components (say, bat guano or knucklebones), obviously exist since they are in the pouch.
That follows logically, not what you said.
Also note that nobody said they weren't available, just that they weren't available as RANDOM LOOT. So you'd have to specifically seek one out.
On topic...
Yes. Yes it is a speedbump. We Coup de Graced our Barbarian the other night because he was unconscious and we didn't want to waste his Rage rounds on the first fight of a major war campaign, since he had Superstition and we all brain farted on the fact that Healing spells were "Save for half" instead of "Save negates".
So we shanked him to death and then cast Breath of Life instead.
I like to have death be relatively rare, but, for the most part, final.So you have two choices:
Either the player brings in a new PC, which break continuity and adds wealth to the party, or the player has to sit out until next campaign?
The way I rule it is that any items the party keeps that were specifically the character's (like armor, weapons, etc, pretty much anything written on the character's sheet) gets taken out of the new character's WBL (and thus that player has veto power). As for breaking continuity, usually it's not terribly difficult to introduce a new character, especially if I have a week to plan and speak with the player. At worst, it's something that we just have to suspend disbelief for, but usually, we manage to work something that makes sense for the campaign. Like, if the party loses a fight with the BBEG's forces and get arrested, and one or more of them get killed, well, then the new character(s) is/are just another of the BBEG's prisoners, who get(s) broken out when the party breaks out.
It was NEVER a particularly troublesome issue, not from the original Red Box forward.
Zhayne- you're pulling "I am more Grognard than you are" with the wrong poster. ;-)
Yes, it was an issue. From the very first printed version.
So, since the spell component pouch exists, and contains all the necessary components, by extension any of the necessary components (say, bat guano or knucklebones), obviously those things exist since they are in the pouch.
But how about if there's a cat with a vial of poison in that pouch, eh mistersmartiepants?
;-)
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This issue is closely connected to another issue that probably deserves addressing.
You know what has never happened in any decent story ever written in all of the human history of storytelling? Deaths of main protagonists actually being random and unpredictable. The James Bond franchise never would have gotten very far if every time James Bond was in "danger", there was a 1/20 chance that he would die.
There were not half a dozen versions of Lord of the Rings or Star Wars launched but in those other ones.. you know.. Frodo and Luke Skywalker died to a random Orc/stormtrooper because a critical was rolled on one of the attack rolls or their player made one wrong choice and turned left when he should have turned right.
Boromir is killed in a skirmish with Orcs. A member of the original adventuring party dead not by the hand of any significant BBEG. Just a battle against some minions.
The number of deaths of primary characters in Game of Thrones is staggering. Yet it is an excellent story despite this.
More important than all of this is the fact that Pathfinder isn't passive literature. It is a game.
For many, the thrill of knowing that their character's lives are on the line adds zest to the experience of play.
So, since the spell component pouch exists, and contains all the necessary components, by extension any of the necessary components (say, bat guano or knucklebones), obviously exist since they are in the pouch.
I mentioned knucklebones because the have a cost > 1 gp.
Also note that nobody said they weren't available, just that they weren't available as RANDOM LOOT. So you'd have to specifically seek one out.
That doesn't need to mean a quest. It can mean going shopping.
Also note that nobody said they weren't available, just that they weren't available as RANDOM LOOT. So you'd have to specifically seek one out.That doesn't need to mean a quest. It can mean going shopping.
Yep.
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Also note that nobody said they weren't available, just that they weren't available as RANDOM LOOT. So you'd have to specifically seek one out.That doesn't need to mean a quest. It can mean going shopping.
Shopping IS a quest!
Especially when shopping for shoes.
The way I rule it is that any items the party keeps that were specifically the character's (like armor, weapons, etc, pretty much anything written on the character's sheet) gets taken out of the new character's WBL (and thus that player has veto power).
That sorta strains reality then in yet a different fashion tho, doesn't it. Some guy who hs never even met Mr Boddy mysteriously has less gear because Mr Boddy's friends are looting his body? And that "Some guy" can tell them what they can or can't loot even tho he may be days from even meeting them?
But Raise Dead in a world where Deities walk the world and dispense miracles like M&M's - that is the gnat you strain at?
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That sorta strains reality then in yet a different fashion tho, doesn't it. Some guy who hs never even met Mr Boddy mysteriously has less gear because Mr Boddy's friends are looting his body? And that "Some guy" can tell them what they can or can't loot even tho he may be days from even meeting them?
Not really. You have to bury him with some of his gear for future heros to find. So whatever the player wants to keep gets buried and his new character happens to have similar items.
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I recall enforcing 'viking funeral' rules once, once again back in high school when some of my players figured out that bringing in new replacement characters was profitable.
It didn't matter if it was a literal viking funeral or just that the wealth all went to the character's family. But a PC worth of wealth had to leave when a PC worth of wealth showed up.
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It was NEVER a particularly troublesome issue, not from the original Red Box forward.Zhayne- you're pulling "I am more Grognard than you are" with the wrong poster. ;-)
Yes, it was an issue. From the very first printed version.
Apparently, just for you.
That doesn't need to mean a quest. It can mean going shopping.
You speak of logic, but where does the shop owner get it from, eh? Not as random loot certainly!
That doesn't need to mean a quest. It can mean going shopping.You speak of logic, but where does the shop owner get it from, eh? Not as random loot certainly!
Where does a shop owner get spell component pouches (and all the weird stuff in them?)
The game is an adventuring game, not an economic simulator. ('Supply Curves and Spreadsheets' sounds like the worst game ever.)
If you want getting a big enough diamond for a raise dead to be its own quest, you certainly can. Just like you can remove raise dead entirely. Or require an Orpheus-style quest into the underworld (plane shift is the same level as raise dead).
But that isn't the baseline assumption: the gem tables in Ultimate Equipment were not backdoor errata to spells that require expensive gemstones as material components.
Where does a shop owner get spell component pouches (and all the weird stuff in them?)
I've always assumed that they created them with Craft (leatherworking).
The game is an adventuring game, not an economic simulator. ('Supply Curves and Spreadsheets' sounds like the worst game ever.)
Yes, yes it does.
If you want getting a big enough diamond for a raise dead to be its own quest, you certainly can. Just like you can remove raise dead entirely. Or require an Orpheus-style quest into the underworld (plane shift is the same level as raise dead).
So then you admit that it's totally in the hands of the GM?
But that isn't the baseline assumption: the gem tables in Ultimate Equipment were not a backdoor errata to spells that require expensive gemstones as material components.
I'm still awaiting for you to point out the rules text that supports your claims.
We've been over this.
And you expected me to be less ardent on the issue?
Where does a shop owner get spell component pouches (and all the weird stuff in them?)I've always assumed that they created them with Craft (leatherworking).
Where does the shopkeeper get his raw materials for the pouch? I don't see 'raw cowhides' or bat guano on random treasure tables either.
And why does that not apply to Craft (Gemcutter)?
If you want getting a big enough diamond for a raise dead to be its own quest, you certainly can. Just like you can remove raise dead entirely. Or require an Orpheus-style quest into the underworld (plane shift is the same level as raise dead).So then you admit that it's totally in the hands of the GM?
As much as anything in the game is in the hands of the GM.
To make it clear why this is relevant to the original topic, you brought up Ultimate Equipment treasure tables as a response to a question about item availability, when the Base Value/Purchase Limit rules are probably more appropriate.But that isn't the baseline assumption: the gem tables in Ultimate Equipment were not a backdoor errata to spells that require expensive gemstones as material components.I'm still awaiting for you to point out the rules text that supports your claims.We've been over this.And I am as ardent on the issue as I was then.
I linked to Jason's post on the subject. Outside of that, hiding a substantial rules change in the minutia of the treasure tables in a book published three years after the Core Rulebook without any kind of announcement or FAQ is simply beyond credibility.
But that is certainly beyond the scope of this thread. Just like in the preview (yes, you've been worried about this since before Ultimate Equipment was even released) thread I linked, I'm going to suggest we take this debate to a new thread.
Edit: Now I see your edit that you're yanking my chain. I never can tell sometimes.
...hiding a substantial rules change in the minutia of the treasure tables in a book published three years after the Core Rulebook without any kind of announcement or FAQ is simply beyond credibility.
Not really. I've seen it done loads of times before. If anything, based on my own experiences I'd say stealth errata is common practice among game developers. Remember Star Was Saga? Those guys were even notorious for it. They'd make a mistake, and rather than admit they were human and fix it, they would release a stealth errata bandaid to cover up the fact that they screwed up in the first place.
But that's a whole separate issue.
Now I see your edit that you're yanking my chain. I never can tell sometimes.
No one can. One of the many things I'm known for. I like to keep people thinking about important things they might not have thought to think about.
AM NOT "AM BARBARIAN," BUT AM OTHER BARBARIAN, AND BARBARIAN AM KNOW DEATH. AM GIVE DEATH AS AM SMASH. AM ALSO TAKE DEATH, BUT ONLY MEAN AM NOT BARBARIAN ENOUGH, SO AM BE MORE BARBARIAN NEXT TIME SO AM NOT TAKE DEATH.
AM SAY DEATH AM PROBLEM WHEN AM NOT SMASH CASTIES THAT MAKE SMASH NOT GOOD. AM SMASH MORE AND HARDER SO YOU STAY DEAD. BARBARIAN AM SOLVE ALMOST ALL PROBLEMS THAT WAY.
IF AM HAVE PROBLEMS WITH DEATH, AM SAY SMASH CASTIES THAT MAKE SMASH NOT GOOD SO AM MAKE SMASH BETTER, AND AM SAY NOT ENOUGH BARBARIAN. AM NOT NEED "AM BARBARIAN" KIND OF BARBARIAN, BUT AM NEED MORE BARBARIAN THAN ONE WHO NOT-BARBARIAN SO AM KEEP ON SMASH CASTIES THAT MAKE SMASH NOT GOOD.
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Are their rules concerning the availability of 5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp diamonds (as well as other gems and treasures)?
If 5,000 gp diamonds are simply just available no matter the size of the settlement, then would it not follow that 25,000 gp diamonds can also be found in the smallest of hamlets?
To make it clear why this is relevant to the original topic, you brought up Ultimate Equipment treasure tables as a response to a question about item availability, when the Base Value/Purchase Limit rules are probably more appropriate.
So, actually, to revisit that question, if we make the assumption that 'magic items' in the Base Value rules actually means 'expensive items', then a 5,000 gp diamond for raise dead is a special purchase in any location smaller than a Large City. A 10,000 gp diamond for resurrection requires a Metropolis. And a 25,000 gp diamond for true resurrection is a special purchase anywhere on the material plane.
Perhaps fudge those downward slightly, since gemstones are more flexible and less diverse than magic items. But that's a decent middle step between 'expensive gemstones always require a quest' and '25,000 gp diamonds are available in any Thorp that has a magic shop'.
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AM NOT NEED "AM BARBARIAN" KIND OF BARBARIAN, BUT AM NEED MORE BARBARIAN THAN ONE WHO NOT-BARBARIAN SO AM KEEP ON SMASH CASTIES THAT MAKE SMASH NOT GOOD.
Elegantly stated.
I'd like to comment more on that matter:
- PC deaths have been frequent and they usually just make another character, unless a resurrection spell is available.
- Henchmen who get killed aren't likely to be revived if their superiors view them as failures.
- Reviving characters can be considered a consolation price for failing a mission, such as protecting someone or finding a cure to whatever affliction.
- Some NPCs wish to die in battle, as a common example, and ask their comrades to honor their words and let them rest in peace.
- Resurrecting someone requires the soul to be willing to come back. This can go either way.
- Resurrecting might attract a Marut... or worse...
With all that said, I feel like death is just an obstacle to overcome, just like a poison or a disease.
Is this how you view this?
If you fail a save against poison you get your cleric to cast neutralize poison. If you fail a save against hold person you cast remove paralysis.
And if you fail a save against slay living you cast raise dead.
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Here's one thing I love about paizo: reasons that make sense in world while still being fun for the game.
For NPCs, you want them to be able to stay dead, for PCs you want to be able to raise them. Thankfully, Pharasma does not judge souls based on when they died. If someone dies and it was "their time to go", then they are judged and cannot be raised back to life. With this system (which makes sense with Pharasma's personality), the GM has the power to use that system to make NPCs be judged quickly and PCs judged slowly.
There is no rule governing the availability of expensive diamonds.
The lack of a rule does not mean they are ubiquitous and are available in every village.* It also doesn't mean they are unavailable and require a quest to acquire.*
In this case, lacking a rule means a house ruling must be made, and no matter how you call it at your table--it's going to be a house rule.
If you think death is too easy to overcome then you have the power to limit spells like raise dead and resurrection.
On the other hand, if you choose not to decide then you still have made a choice.
On a separate point, Player Characters often utilize resurrection magic because they are extensions of real Players. Non-Player Characters sometimes die permanently simply because that's what's good for the story. Play along and don't over think it.
Occasionally my Players will look at a potential fight and send their Characters for the nearest exit, because that's what is safe and logical. I have to gently remind them that their characters are heroes, created specifically for the purpose of not being safe.
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I have had this discussion many times on these boards and elsewhere. I have always found the ability to raise somewhat problematic as written. Death is not permanent enough and is less of a motivator than it is in our world. Here's how I deal with raising the dead in my homebrew of Morvia.
1. You can only be raised by a priest of your faith. Therefore a cleric of one god cannot raise someone who venerates another god.
2. A life for a life. If you are resurrected or raised, there has to be a cost of a life. The thing is, you don't know who that will be. When you're raised, someone, somewhere will be chosen to take your place. It may be someone you know, or it may be a complete stranger. They may be an evil king or an innocent child. That's the price that must be paid. This becomes a heavy decision and brings back the permanence of death.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
So, have you run the adventure with the serial killer who murders indiscriminately by killing himself and having his allies raise him?
Here's one thing I love about paizo: reasons that make sense in world while still being fun for the game.
For NPCs, you want them to be able to stay dead, for PCs you want to be able to raise them. Thankfully, Pharasma does not judge souls based on when they died. If someone dies and it was "their time to go", then they are judged and cannot be raised back to life. With this system (which makes sense with Pharasma's personality), the GM has the power to use that system to make NPCs be judged quickly and PCs judged slowly.
From the story POV, this feels like one of the best ways to handle it, as is ruling that raise dead works similarly to reviving someone that's clinically dead - you have to try it and see if it works out, with NPCs just having this tendency to be too far gone. It could be their spirit was hanging on just enough to be recalled, or that they'd given up on the final spark of life and drifted off into the wherever-spirits-go-in-your-setting.
Yes. Death is nothing more than an expense at high level.
Of course, dying without losing your stuff is the domain of high level casters. Yay for Astral Projections!
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By that logic casting fireball is impossible because bat guano never shows up in treasure.Pfft, maybe in your games!
Y'know, in a Kingmaker campaign, I actually had the players find a large cave system filled with bat guano and saltpeter for black powder making. The alchemist in the party was ecstatic.
Of course, dying without losing your stuff is the domain of high level casters. Yay for Astral Projections!
Depending on one's interpretation of lesser astral projection, maybe not even just for high level casters.
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Here's my 2cp:
Players coming back from life doesn't break my verisimilitude because, quite simply, different rules apply to PCs than do the rest of the world. It has always been that way.
7k (5k for Raise Dead and 2k for 2 restorations) isn't chump change, but it's enough to disincentivize the sort of behavior that gets players killed. When a character dies the GM or other players should have a brief conversation about why he died, and see if they can take it as a learning experience. Did the warrior foolishly dump Wis? Convince him to buy a headband of wis and/or a cloak of resistance. Does the Barbarian simply take too much damage? See if you can't get him/her better armor, etc.
Let's remember that this is first and foremost a game, in which (ostensibly) your real life friends are interacting, and when they have a character they really like, giving it up because the GM thinks it makes the world more believable can be un-fun.
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I do have to point out that it messes with my suspension of disbelief when every time a party member dies he is randomly replaced with someone who just *happens* to have the same powerlevel and goals as the rest of the party. Especially at mid to high levels.
I'd rather have Raise Dead in the game than replacement character silliness.
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I do have to point out that it messes with my suspension of disbelief when every time a party member dies he is randomly replaced with someone who just *happens* to have the same powerlevel and goals as the rest of the party. Especially at mid to high levels.
I'd rather have Raise Dead in the game than replacement character silliness.
This is also a good point.
"What's your name, stranger?""I'm Bob the dwarven berzerker who kills everything on sight! Greetings!"
"You look like a trusty companion to have on an adventure! Why don't you travel with us, friend?"
So, have you run the adventure with the serial killer who murders indiscriminately by killing himself and having his allies raise him?
No.
Another option for Players who are attached to their Characters is to be prepared for death. One of my characters always carries an expensive scroll of raise dead right next to his heart.
Are their rules concerning the availability of 5,000 gp, 10,000 gp, and 25,000 gp diamonds (as well as other gems and treasures)?
If 5,000 gp diamonds are simply just available no matter the size of the settlement, then would it not follow that 25,000 gp diamonds can also be found in the smallest of hamlets?
To make it clear why this is relevant to the original topic, you brought up Ultimate Equipment treasure tables as a response to a question about item availability, when the Base Value/Purchase Limit rules are probably more appropriate.So, actually, to revisit that question, if we make the assumption that 'magic items' in the Base Value rules actually means 'expensive items', then a 5,000 gp diamond for raise dead is a special purchase in any location smaller than a Large City. A 10,000 gp diamond for resurrection requires a Metropolis. And a 25,000 gp diamond for true resurrection is a special purchase anywhere on the material plane.
Perhaps fudge those downward slightly, since gemstones are more flexible and less diverse than magic items. But that's a decent middle step between 'expensive gemstones always require a quest' and '25,000 gp diamonds are available in any Thorp that has a magic shop'.
I don't think you even have to go that far in any assumptions. Scrolls don't need the spell components once created. Any Large Town can theoretically have one since it's a Major Magic Item. Any Village can have a Raise Dead scroll since it's a Medium Magic Item.
I do have to point out that it messes with my suspension of disbelief when every time a party member dies he is randomly replaced with someone who just *happens* to have the same powerlevel and goals as the rest of the party. Especially at mid to high levels.
I'd rather have Raise Dead in the game than replacement character silliness.
You could always say that it IS the same character coming back, that what was killed was actually an astral projection. Hiring a spellcaster to catch such spells (or buying scrolls) are surprisingly cheap (about half of what raise dead would cost).
Another option for Players who are attached to their Characters is to be prepared for death. One of my characters always carries an expensive scroll of raise dead right next to his heart.Just as long as the sword doesn't hit the scroll on the way to his heart! :)
That would be truly tragic, and worth every inch of his death.
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My feeling is that you don't see a lot of dead raising (especially outside of heroic adventurers) because the afterlife is a really nice place that most people don't want to leave. Ripping someone out of their afterlife the kind of thing that should be extremely traumatic, and only acceptable under specific circumstances.
As someone else mentioned, I'm reminded of Buffy, which had an entire arc about her coming to terms with the fact that she was dead and at peace in heaven until her friends ripped her out and returned her to the mortal plane.
I've even seen high level characters (15+) on record with their party that they don't want to be resurrected if they die unless there is some damn good reason (e.g. they alone can save the nation / world). They feel like they've earned their afterlife (especially the viking fellow who has won glory and honor in his life, and who would almost certainly feast and fight until the end of days).