You say the AoO happens before the effect of trip is applied... Same exact phrasing as the trigger of Greater Disarm.
Would you say the landing 15ft away happens before the effect of disarm? Are you saying the item lands 15ft away before he drops it? That is the sort of logic you are applying to Greater Trip.
Direct comparison time:
"Whenever you (0)successfully (1)disarm an opponent, the (2)weapon (3)lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction." And then apply the effect of the maneuver: Weapon (4)drops.
"Whenever you (0)successfully (1)trip an opponent, that (2)opponent (3)provokes attacks of opportunity." And then apply the effect of the maneuver: Opponent knocked (4)prone.
You say: Whenever you succeed on a maneuver to (1)trip, (2)they (3)provoke and then (4)fall prone.
So... Whenever you succeed on a maneuver to (1)disarm, the (2)weapon (3)lands 15ft away and then it (4)drops?
This is one reason why I had to leave Camp #1.
I wish I was better at formatting and whatnot. I know a lot of my posts are difficult to read because of how spastic I format them >.<
But yes, this is one of those incontrovertible points. The wording between the two feats is nearly identical, and the direct application of the prone-after-AoO logic to greater disarm ends in nonsense.
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You say the AoO happens before the effect of trip is applied... Same exact phrasing as the trigger of Greater Disarm.
Would you say the landing 15ft away happens before the effect of disarm? Are you saying the item lands 15ft away before he drops it? That is the sort of logic you are applying to Greater Trip.
Direct comparison time:
"Whenever you (0)successfully (1)disarm an opponent, the (2)weapon (3)lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction." And then apply the effect of the maneuver: Weapon (4)drops.
"Whenever you (0)successfully (1)trip an opponent, that (2)opponent (3)provokes attacks of opportunity." And then apply the effect of the maneuver: Opponent knocked (4)prone.
You say: Whenever you succeed on a maneuver to (1)trip, (2)they (3)provoke and then (4)fall prone.
So... Whenever you succeed on a maneuver to (1)disarm, the (2)weapon (3)lands 15ft away and then it (4)drops?
This is one reason why I had to leave Camp #1.
As I stated, Greater Disarm actually specifically tells you it alters the effect. So it applies when the effect is applied. As I said, "It makes more sense to me that Greater Disarm actually changes the effect to be applied." Changes the effect. From "drops in square" to "drops 15' away".
That's not what happens with Greater Trip. Greater Trip just means you provoke when you've been successfully tripped. If you're required to be knocked prone to be successfully tripped, the Meteor Hammer trip/drag wouldn't provoke and that makes no sense to me, considering we know it's possible to make people provoke when they're dragged.
Alternatively, you use the declaration/determination/resolution model in which all parameters of resolution are pre-established in the determination phase.
1) Declaration: I'm going to disarm you.
2) Determination:
-a) I roll: success.
-b) Because of success, I roll concealment: success.
-c) Because of success, I set parameters to have weapon drop 15' away.
3) Resolution: Weapon drops and lands 15' away.1) Declaration: I'm going to trip you.
2) Determination:
-a) I roll: success.
-b) Because of success, I roll concealment: fail. Success is negated.
3) Resolution: Opponent isn't subject to consequence of maneuver (fall prone by default, sometimes flat-footed or drag based on special weapons or contexts).1) Declaration: I'm going to trip you.
2) Determination:
-a) I roll: fail by more than 10.
-b) Because of failure by 10 or more, set parameters to fall prone.
3) Resolution: I fall prone.1) Declaration: I'm going to trip you.
2) Determination:
-a) I roll: success.
-b) Because of success, roll concealment: success.
-c) Because of success, Ki Throw lets me set parameters to drop target prone in any adjacent space.
<AoO: Greater Trip>
3) Resolution: Target falls prone in valid space of your choosing.
<AoO: Vicious Stomp>Both the roll to determine success, the roll to determine concealment, and the extra parameters set by special abilities and feats are determined and established in the Determination phase. Only after everything from this phase has been set does the entire phase result in a "success" or a "failure". At that point, the AoO from Greater Trip triggers and resolves before moving on to the Resolution phase, in which case the results set by parameters determined in the Determination phase are applied. This clears up all the inconsistencies people have pointed out with the process of resolving an action or action-like sub-element.
This also works. That's a nice way to summarize it as well.
As I stated, Greater Disarm actually specifically tells you it alters the effect. So it applies when the effect is applied. As I said, "It makes more sense to me that Greater Disarm actually changes the effect to be applied." Changes the effect. From "drops in square" to "drops 15' away".
That's not what happens with Greater Trip. Greater Trip just means you provoke when you've been successfully tripped. If you're required to be knocked prone to be successfully tripped, the Meteor Hammer trip/drag wouldn't provoke and that makes no sense to me, considering we know it's possible to make people provoke when they're dragged.
Where does Greater Disarm say it alters the effect?
Whenever you successfully disarm an opponent, the weapon lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction.
If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands).
The effect of disarm has absolutely nothing to do with where the item lands.
Greater Disarm has no direct effect on the effect of Disarm.
Disarm cases the item to drop.
Greater Disarm causes the item to land 15ft away.
How does Greater Disarm change the effect, or in any way imply that it does?
Both the roll to determine success, the roll to determine concealment, and the extra parameters set by special abilities and feats are determined and established in the Determination phase. Only after everything from this phase has been set does the entire phase result in a "success" or a "failure". At that point, the AoO from Greater Trip triggers and resolves before moving on to the Resolution phase, in which case the results set by parameters determined in the Determination phase are applied. This clears up all the inconsistencies people have pointed out with the process of resolving an action or action-like sub-element.
Why are you putting the ”provoke AoO” in a different step than the “lands 15ft away”?
I’m going to remove the extraneous examples to show them contrasted…
Alternatively, you use the declaration/determination/resolution model in which all parameters of resolution are pre-established in the determination phase.
1) Declaration: I'm going to disarm you.
2) Determination:
-a) I roll: success.
-b) Because of success, I roll concealment: success.
-c) Because of success, I set parameters to have weapon drop 15' away.
3) Resolution: Weapon drops and lands 15' away.1) Declaration: I'm going to trip you.
2) Determination:
-a) I roll: success.
-b) Because of success, roll concealment: success.
-c) Because of success, Ki Throw lets me set parameters to drop target prone in any adjacent space.
<AoO: Greater Trip>
3) Resolution: Target falls prone in valid space of your choosing.
<AoO: Vicious Stomp>
The 2 things I bolded need to happen in the same step of determination, because the trigger for them is phrased identically.
Whenever you successfully disarm an opponentWhenever you successfully trip an opponent
Identical syntax here. The exact same trigger timing needs to happen. The effect of Greater Disarm and the effect of Greater Trip happen in the exact same step, regardless what step we decide that is, this must be the same step for both of these feats.
As I stated, Greater Disarm actually specifically tells you it alters the effect. So it applies when the effect is applied. As I said, "It makes more sense to me that Greater Disarm actually changes the effect to be applied." Changes the effect. From "drops in square" to "drops 15' away".
That's not what happens with Greater Trip. Greater Trip just means you provoke when you've been successfully tripped. If you're required to be knocked prone to be successfully tripped, the Meteor Hammer trip/drag wouldn't provoke and that makes no sense to me, considering we know it's possible to make people provoke when they're dragged.
Totally getting ninja'ed big time here, but I wrote most of this and then was interrupted for a while. So going to post it anyway. I see others posted, but I haven't read them. So maybe this is just repeat.
I don't think you're grasping the significance of what Remy posted earlier. It basically torpedoes Camp #1's argument.
"Whenever you successfully disarm an opponent, the weapon lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction."
"Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity."
The two emboldened segments are triggering at the exact same time in the sequence of events. They happen AFTER "successfully" has been determined. With Greater Disarm we know the weapon landing 15ft away cannot happen before the weapon is out of the owner's hand. It must happen after. The weapon leaving the owner's hand is the Effect of Disarm. Therefore the Effect is in place before the ability granted by Greater Disarm triggers.
Greater Trip is worded the same way and works off the same sequence of events. The Effect of Trip must be in place before the AoO provokes. This gives us:
Group A:
Disarm attempt, weapon leaves owner's hand, weapon lands 15ft away.
Trip attempt, target prone, target provokes AoO.
Saying the AoO comes before the prone gives us:
Group B:
Trip attempt, target provokes AoO, target prone.
Disarm attempt, weapon lands 15ft away, weapon leaves owner's hand.
Choose either Group A or B. You can't pick and choose from both, because the sequence of events EITHER happen as A says OR as B says. Not both.
But I will say that Group B is flat out impossible, since you cannot make a weapon land 15ft away and THEN have it leave his hands. It must leave his hands first.
But I will say that Group B is flat out impossible, since you cannot make a weapon land 15ft away and THEN have it leave his hands. It must leave his hands first.
Omg, could you imagine?
All this time, Greater Disarm was causing reality to split open and from the crack in space-time itself came forth an identical copy of the weapon being disarmed?
Imagine how many +5 Holy avengers you could mass produce by dueling with that party's paladin!?
/cackles manically
/skips merrily off to the local market
Uh, yeah. But unfortunately at my table you'd go to market and find they are paradoxical copies, which means they only exist as figments in your own mind...sort of like imaginary numbers. So you'd only be getting strange looks from the shop keepers.
Odd really. All this time we were wondering and debating over what "Successfully Trip" means, when all we had to do was look at Greater Disarm for a comparison. Why didn't I think of this a few threads ago? *sigh*
Uh, yeah. But unfortunately at my table you'd go to market and find they are paradoxical copies, which means they only exist as figments in your own mind...sort of like imaginary numbers. So you'd only be getting strange looks from the shop keepers.
Odd really. All this time we were wondering and debating over what "Successfully Trip" means, when all we had to do was look at Greater Disarm for a comparison. Why didn't I think of this a few threads ago? *sigh*
Oh I know, we could toss the uncertainty principle in there! Only one copy is the real copy... but they all could be the real one until you observe the real one successfully hit an opponent! >.>
/starts new thread
Your parsing words.
"Landing 15ft away" is triggering on "successfully disarmed". But "successfully disarmed" is assuming the Effect of dropping the item has already been applied. It HAS to make this assumption. It is impossible for an item to land 15ft away if the target hasn't dropped it yet.
This is proof that the Effect must be in place before a target can be "successfully X'ed". This translates to Greater Trip as well since the wording is the same.
If you insist that it goes Roll/AoO/Prone, then you MUST insist that it goes Roll/item 15ft away/item dropped...which is impossible.
Your parsing words.
"Landing 15ft away" is triggering on "successfully disarmed". But "successfully disarmed" is assuming the Effect of dropping the item has already been applied. It HAS to make this assumption. It is impossible for an item to land 15ft away if the target hasn't dropped it yet.
This is proof that the Effect must be in place before a target can be "successfully X'ed". This translates to Greater Trip as well since the wording is the same.
If you insist that it goes Roll/AoO/Prone, then you MUST insist that it goes Roll/item 15ft away/item dropped...which is impossible.
I'm not sure if this help makes Kazaan's point, but I thought I'd throw it out as consideration. (I actually hope Kazaan's wrong on this)
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
this does seem to indicate that AOO are different because of their wording in how they "interrupt".
I hope there's something I'm missing here though, since I like Remy's explanation better, yet I can see Kazaan's point as well.
The "AoO" from Greater Trip and the "land 15ft away" from Greater Disarm are both the special ability granted by the Feat that is triggered after "successfully X" happens.
The Effect of a Disarm is to force item drop.
The Effect of a Trip is to force target prone.
When "land 15ft away" triggers, the Disarm Effect is already in place. It has to be. The item cannot fly off and land 15ft away if the owner is still wielding it. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. This means that "Whenever you successfully disarm" is telling us that the Effect of dropping an item is already in place. The target has been successfully disarmed. The item has been dropped. NOW it lands 15ft away.
When "AoO" triggers, the Trip Effect is already in place. The wording of the feat is the very same wording of Greater Disarm. They are working off the same mechanics. "Successfully" doesn't mean one thing in one feat and another thing in the other feat. Saying so is making up meanings and not sticking with what the rules tell us. That is legislation, not RAW. You can argue over how AoOs are supposed to happen, but you're only talking about the general rule. These feats give us special rules and special always trumps general. For Greater Trip "Whenever you successfully trip" means the Effect of being knocked prone is already in place. The target has been successfully tripped. He has been knocked prone. NOW he provokes.
As I said, fretgod99 mentioned the feats, I commented on them, and Remy introduced the argument that basically torpedoes Camp #1's interpretation. Parse it how you like, but the only way around is to fashion such a word pretzel that people just give up trying.
I for one would rather stick with the simpler reading without the pretzel and be very happy to see this years-long argument finally put to rest.
Your parsing words.
"Landing 15ft away" is triggering on "successfully disarmed". But "successfully disarmed" is assuming the Effect of dropping the item has already been applied. It HAS to make this assumption. It is impossible for an item to land 15ft away if the target hasn't dropped it yet.
This is proof that the Effect must be in place before a target can be "successfully X'ed". This translates to Greater Trip as well since the wording is the same.
If you insist that it goes Roll/AoO/Prone, then you MUST insist that it goes Roll/item 15ft away/item dropped...which is impossible.
I'm not sure if this help makes Kazaan's point, but I thought I'd throw it out as consideration. (I actually hope Kazaan's wrong on this)
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).this does seem to indicate that AOO are different because of their wording in how they "interrupt".
I hope there's something I'm missing here though, since I like Remy's explanation better, yet I can see Kazaan's point as well.
You are quoting the general rule for AoO. Those are triggered by something the target is doing. Greater feats override general rules and give us special ones that trigger AoOs when something happens. The rule above is superseded by the specific.
"Successfully" can only be defined as the Effect of the maneuver being in place. Hence the Disarm issue. Since Disarm frames the meaning of "successfully" so nicely, we can then easily translate Trip. :)
Ah, something I missed there.
"If an AoO is provoked, immediately resolve the AoO, then continue..."
For Greater Disarm, when is the ability triggered? After the Effect of item drop happens.
For Greater Trip, when is the AoO provoked? After the Effect of knock prone happens.
So I agree that the AoO immediately resolves once provoked. But it isn't provoked until after the Effect is in place.
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As I stated, Greater Disarm actually specifically tells you it alters the effect. So it applies when the effect is applied. As I said, "It makes more sense to me that Greater Disarm actually changes the effect to be applied." Changes the effect. From "drops in square" to "drops 15' away".
That's not what happens with Greater Trip. Greater Trip just means you provoke when you've been successfully tripped. If you're required to be knocked prone to be successfully tripped, the Meteor Hammer trip/drag wouldn't provoke and that makes no sense to me, considering we know it's possible to make people provoke when they're dragged.
Totally getting ninja'ed big time here, but I wrote most of this and then was interrupted for a while. So going to post it anyway. I see others posted, but I haven't read them. So maybe this is just repeat.
I don't think you're grasping the significance of what Remy posted earlier. It basically torpedoes Camp #1's argument.
"Whenever you successfully disarm an opponent, the weapon lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction."
"Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity."The two emboldened segments are triggering at the exact same time in the sequence of events. They happen AFTER "successfully" has been determined. With Greater Disarm we know the weapon landing 15ft away cannot happen before the weapon is out of the owner's hand. It must happen after. The weapon leaving the owner's hand is the Effect of Disarm. Therefore the Effect is in place before the ability granted by Greater Disarm triggers.
Greater Trip is worded the same way and works off the same sequence of events. The Effect of Trip must be in place before the AoO provokes. This gives us:
Group A:
Disarm attempt, weapon leaves owner's hand, weapon lands 15ft away.
Trip attempt, target prone, target provokes AoO.Saying the AoO comes before the prone gives us:
Group
...
If we're talking about torpedoing people's arguments, it would have been nice of you to respond to my posts that torpedoed yours.
If we're talking about torpedoing people's arguments, it would have been nice of you to respond to my posts that torpedoed yours.
I'm confused, you haven't commented on this thread in days.
If we're talking about torpedoing people's arguments, it would have been nice of you to respond to my posts that torpedoed yours.
I'm sorry. I tend to get into a back and forth with fretgod99 or Kazaan. So maybe I missed the key posts you've made. Which arguments of yours are you specifically referring to that torpedo mine? Are you referring to the definition of Trip we went over on another thread? Or something here? If you can link them or repost them, I will do my best to provide you with an honest response.
first PC can trip the mob but which provokes if he has greater trip feat there are no Bonuses to hit mob unless you are flanking or he's blind or whatever, there is no +4 Prone bonus.
2nd pc cannot trip the same target who is already prone, but the mob does provoke from everyone else when trying to stand up everyone gets +4 to hit him assuming pc's have combat reflexes.
These two statements do not make sense with each other. In the 1st you are saying that success is determined by the Roll only and application of the Effect doesn't matter. But in the 2nd you are saying the exact opposite....that the target can't be tripped because the Effect can't be applied.
So does the Effect matter or not? The discussion here has shown quite thoroughly that it DOES matter. The Effect of the maneuver must be applied before the AoO is triggered. So the target is prone and the +4 Prone bonus would in fact apply.
This also has the added benefit of meaning that PC#2 cannot trip the prone target and force more AoOs. So no cheesy gattling-gun trip/AoO going on. :)
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I was loosely referring to this:
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
This suggests that regular AoOs happen because someone is doing something. This is further supported by the rules pointing out that just because you are bull rushed or dragged, you don't provoke normally for that movement since it is forced and not a choice. Feats, however, can come in and change this.
Greater Trip specifically changes the rule. Normally being tripped doesn't provoked. But with Greater Trip, the target now does.
That was all that was about. But if you read further and looked at the following post I DO point out that I agree how AoOs work. They interrupt the flow of action taking place in the Round and they resolve immediately after being triggered.
As the AoO from Greater Trip triggers after "you successfully trip an opponent", we know it resolves immediately after "you successfully trip an opponent".
Any attempt to understand it is parsing. The Effect of "land 15' away" is primed to happen, but it the results of the Determination phase (which determines whether it was successful and, if so, what happens during Resolution) don't Resolve until the Resolution. But AoOs are, explicitly, different. They interrupt the normal flow of combat so once a success has been established, which is finalized at the end of the Determination phase but before the Resolution phase begins, the AoO immediately takes place. You can't resolve the "15' away" portion until you've dropped the weapon but you can (and, moreover, you must) resolve the AoO once success has been determined before doing anything else (including resolve the results of your success). This is why your AoO takes place after the person has declared their move, but before they've resolved their move and why the Trip attempt when the target attempts to stand is resolved before the Stand Up action resolves.
The rules tell us when things happen. We can ignore them I guess and do whatever we want instead, we certainly have that option. But...
If we stick to simply what the rules actually say, then we do what they instruct us to do when they instruct us to do them. Both these feats tell us when the effect takes place. Can you ignore that and 'prime' the effect for later? Hell yeah you can, Rule Zero it up all you like in your games!
But if you want to actually use the rules as they are written, and want the effects of these feats to happen when they actually say they happen...
Greater Trip and Greater Disarm; These feats tell us exactly when they go into effect. And both of these feats have exactly the same syntax... we must simply choose between applying the effects of both these feats on either A) A successful roll, or B)A successful action. Both are A, OR both are B. We simply must pick one.
Given that the literal English meaning of "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent" means 'when the action of tripping an opponent is successful'. (Ie. You knocked em prone)
And that the results of applying the effects of the Greater Disarm feat on a successful roll results in a ludicrous situation. Ie The weapon landing 15ft away before the weapon drops.
We should be left with a fairly straightforward call.
If we're talking about torpedoing people's arguments, it would have been nice of you to respond to my posts that torpedoed yours.I'm confused, you haven't commented on this thread in days.
I checked his post history, and if I wagered a guess, he was referring to another thread. There are a number of them... easy enough to get mixed up. I think I have once or twice already, haha.
If we're talking about torpedoing people's arguments, it would have been nice of you to respond to my posts that torpedoed yours.I'm confused, you haven't commented on this thread in days.I checked his post history, and if I wagered a guess, he was referring to another thread. There are a number of them... easy enough to get mixed up. I think I have once or twice already, haha.
yeah, I realized that later, but by then, it was to late to edit.
I will say all of the extra threads on this topic have made it more not less difficult to follow.
Where does Greater Disarm say it alters the effect?
Whenever you successfully disarm an opponent, the weapon lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction.If your attack is successful, your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice (even if the item is wielded with two hands).The effect of disarm has absolutely nothing to do with where the item lands.
Greater Disarm has no direct effect on the effect of Disarm.
Disarm cases the item to drop.
Greater Disarm causes the item to land 15ft away.How does Greater Disarm change the effect, or in any way imply that it does?
Totally getting ninja'ed big time here, but I wrote most of this and then was interrupted for a while. So going to post it anyway. I see others posted, but I haven't read them. So maybe this is just repeat.
I don't think you're grasping the significance of what Remy posted earlier. It basically torpedoes Camp #1's argument.
"Whenever you successfully disarm an opponent, the weapon lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction."
"Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity."The two emboldened segments are triggering at the exact same time in the sequence of events. They happen AFTER "successfully" has been determined. With Greater Disarm we know the weapon landing 15ft away cannot happen before the weapon is out of the owner's hand. It must happen after. The weapon leaving the owner's hand is the Effect of Disarm. Therefore the Effect is in place before the ability granted by Greater Disarm triggers.
Greater Trip is worded the same way and works off the same sequence of events. The Effect of Trip must be in place before the AoO provokes. This gives us:
Group A:
Disarm attempt, weapon leaves owner's hand, weapon lands 15ft away.
Trip attempt, target prone, target provokes AoO.Saying the AoO comes before the prone gives us:
Group B:
Trip attempt, target provokes AoO, target prone.
Disarm attempt, weapon lands 15ft away, weapon leaves owner's hand.Choose either Group A or B. You can't pick and choose from both, because the sequence of events EITHER happen as A says OR as B says. Not both.
But I will say that Group B is flat out impossible, since you cannot make a weapon land 15ft away and THEN have it leave his hands. It must leave his hands first.
How does Greater Disarm do anything but alter the effect? It doesn't allow for another intervening event, like an AoO. It doesn't allow you to perform a disarm more quickly than normal, like as a move action. It alters the ordinary result of what happens when one is disarmed, specifically by making the object land 15' away, rather than in the square where it was last held.
So, as much fun as the two of you had arguing a strawman, it was never anywhere close to a point I have ever made. I'm choosing neither A nor B, because they're not compatible.
Disarm works to make the target drop an item. Dropping an item is actually a game term. You drop it in your space or an adjacent one. This is what Disarm makes you do. If the Disarm maneuver has to be finished before Greater Disarm takes place (which is what your argument is in regards to Greater Trip and Greater Disarm, the underlying combat maneuver is finished), that means that the item has already been dropped. That means the item is already on the ground before Greater Disarm kicks in.
So how do you propose that an item which is already lying on the ground after having been dropped gets also dropped 15' away? Doesn't that lead to the same absurdity of results from your strawman?
Or, does it make more sense that, instead of dropping the item in your space the item gets dropped 15' away? Meaning you're changing the effect. The effect was to drop the item in your space. The effect now is to drop the item 15' away. That is a change to the effect. Otherwise, you're left with the item being dropped, fulfilling the original disarm, then landing again in another spot.
By constructing the A option as you have, you're misunderstanding how the interpretation works.
The AoO comes before the target is knocked prone because of the nature of Attacks of Opportunity. They interrupt. They're resolved prior to the triggering event. Since the triggering event is, per our interpretation, analogous to the Standing Up situation, the AoO resolves prior to the target gaining the prone condition.
There is no interruption with Greater Disarm. Greater Disarm does nothing to interrupt the ordinary flow of events, it simply alters the outcome, the effect. Instead of dropping the item in the target's square, the item is dropped 15' away. But the condition to be met in both instances is the same: The success of the Combat Maneuver, which is triggered by the attack roll.
So, Group C:
Disarm Attempt Succeeds, weapon leaves owner's hand, lands 15' away instead of in owner's square
Trip Attempt Succeeds, Attack of Opportunity (resolved prior to triggering event), target knocked prone or has other trip effect applied
Both follow the same pattern. The reason we disagree isn't because I think the operative portion of the Greater feats intercedes and occurs before the resolution of the ordinary combat maneuver (I don't). We disagree because of how we determine success of the combat maneuver.
There is no contradiction in how I view these two combat maneuvers. There is only a contradiction if you insist on arguing against your strawman.
The AoO comes before the target is knocked prone because of the nature of Attacks of Opportunity. They interrupt. They're resolved prior to the triggering event. Since the triggering event is, per our interpretation, analogous to the Standing Up situation, the AoO resolves prior to the target gaining the prone condition.
AoOs happen immediately. But they do not necessarily resolve before the triggering event. That part is a misunderstanding.
If the triggering event is the resolution of another action, the AoO would happen immediately following the resolution.
Much like the declaration of a action is the typical triggering event for an AoO, the AoO happens immediately following the declaration and before the resolution or even determination steps.
The AoO happens immediately following the triggering event. Immediately following.
Additionally, any rule that tells us when something occurs is exactly when it occurs. The trigger for Greater Trip and Greater Disarm happens in the exact same step of their respective actions.
The effect of both of these is immediate, because they tell us when they happen. That time is exactly when the effect occurs. Not before, and not later. But exactly when the feat says it happens. Anything else is not RAW.
So, take your pick. They both happen when your roll is successful, or they both happen when the action is successful. I'll grant there really is an option C) Houserule it.
I know which one makes sense to me.
The link to my post was about trips. Not attacks that do damage. I'm not of the position that these are the exact same thing. Something tells me that you think they are?I do think they are. The rules are structured identically. The rules say you can make these types of combat maneuver checks in place of attacks. The rules call them attacks. They function just like attacks.
Because they are attacks. Just specific types of attacks. A trip attack is an attack. You just might have some different bonuses to add and you target CMD instead of AC.
So, what you are saying is that they are identical, except for all the ways in which they are not identical.
Cool. Glad to have that cleared up. They are identical and not identical. No problem there.
You realize that you are 100% wrong, right? Like, literally 100% wrong. Combat Maneuver Checks are Attacks. We know this because the rules go out of their way to tell us, specifically, that they are attack rolls.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.
How does one make a Combat Maneuver Check? By determining one's Combat Maneuver Bonus, of course! And how does one figure out one's ordinary combat maneuver bonus? CMB is determined by adding your base attack bonus to your STR modifier plus a size modifier.
How does one make an Attack? By determining one's Attack Bonus, of course! And how does one figure out one's ordinary attack bonus? By adding your base attack bonus to your STR modifier plus a size modifier.
Well, look at that! They're the same thing! So, from a general perspective, CMB is literally the exact same thing as your attack bonus. Because combat maneuvers are attacks. Heck, the rules even intermittently refer to the various maneuver checks as attacks.
So feel free to continue being as sarcastic as you like. You are wrong. A trip attempt is an attack. They are treated and resolved no differently. That's why a discussion of what a "Successful Hit" is relevant. If success of a hit is determined regardless of damage, it certainly seems reasonable that one might determine success of a combat maneuver prior to the application of the relevant effect. Thus, ambiguity.
The link to my post was about trips. Not attacks that do damage. I'm not of the position that these are the exact same thing. Something tells me that you think they are?I do think they are. The rules are structured identically. The rules say you can make these types of combat maneuver checks in place of attacks. The rules call them attacks. They function just like attacks.
Because they are attacks. Just specific types of attacks. A trip attack is an attack. You just might have some different bonuses to add and you target CMD instead of AC.
So, what you are saying is that they are identical, except for all the ways in which they are not identical.
Cool. Glad to have that cleared up. They are identical and not identical. No problem there.
You realize that you are 100% wrong, right? Like, literally 100% wrong. Combat Maneuver Checks are Attacks. We know this because the rules go out of their way to tell us, specifically, that they are attack rolls.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll.How does one make a Combat Maneuver Check? By determining one's Combat Maneuver Bonus, of course! And how does one figure out one's ordinary combat maneuver bonus? CMB is determined by adding your base attack bonus to your STR modifier plus a size modifier.
How does one make an Attack? By determining one's Attack Bonus, of course! And how does one figure out one's ordinary attack bonus? By adding your base...
I wonder.
Do you know what "identical" or "exact same" mean?
If two things are different, then they are not "identical" or the "exact same".
So... I'm not sure what you are talking about. An attack to do damage is not the "exact same thing" as an attack to trip. They are not "identical".
Why do we know this? Because there ARE differences between them. The bonuses you add, the target number you need to hit, the steps to resolve them. Differences abound!
Not identical, not the exact same. Your insistence that they are is unbelievable.
The AoO comes before the target is knocked prone because of the nature of Attacks of Opportunity. They interrupt. They're resolved prior to the triggering event. Since the triggering event is, per our interpretation, analogous to the Standing Up situation, the AoO resolves prior to the target gaining the prone condition.AoOs happen immediately. But they do not necessarily resolve before the triggering event. That part is a misunderstanding.
If the triggering event is the resolution of another action, the AoO would happen immediately following the resolution.
Much like the declaration of a action is the typical triggering event for an AoO, the AoO happens immediately following the declaration and before the resolution or even determination steps.
The AoO happens immediately following the triggering event. Immediately following.
Additionally, any rule that tells us when something occurs is exactly when it occurs. The trigger for Greater Trip and Greater Disarm happens in the exact same step of their respective actions.
The effect of both of these is immediate, because they tell us when they happen. That time is exactly when the effect occurs. Not before, and not later. But exactly when the feat says it happens. Anything else is not RAW.
So, take your pick. They both happen when your roll is successful, or they both happen when the action is successful.
I know which one makes sense to me.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.
Technically, the AoO occurs as the event that provokes it is taking place, but since we can't have "middle ground" conditions, they are pushed to before to keep things straightforward. This is the only way it makes sense for spellcasting, movement, and, in this case, standing up and trip.
Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.
Attacks of Opportunity are resolved prior to their triggering event. This is pretty uniform in the rules.
Your argument is that this particular AoO does not occur before prone because your argument is that falling prone is a part of the triggering event. I understand that. But that is a point in contention. The first argument that started all these threads was about when the AoO comes, whether before prone or after. If the triggering event is falling prone, then the AoO comes after the target is prone. If the triggering event is success of the maneuver which is determined separately from the application of the event, there is no reason to think the AoO comes after the target is prone. But that's the point of the discussion, so you can't simply assume the point in contention.
I wonder.
Do you know what "identical" or "exact same" mean?
If two things are different, then they are not "identical" or the "exact same".
So... I'm not sure what you are talking about. An attack to do damage is not the "exact same thing" as an attack to trip. They are not "identical".
Why do we know this? Because there ARE differences between them. The bonuses you add, the target number you need to hit, the steps to resolve them. Differences abound!
Not identical, not the exact same. Your insistence that they are is unbelievable.
Combat Maneuver Checks are Attacks. They are resolved the same way. That you might have different bonuses to add because of a feat or weapon used is irrelevant. Combat Maneuver Checks are Attacks.
And you're the one insisting on identicalness. I just said the rules are set up the same. And I'm just saying they're treated the same way. Because they are. That's why the steps to resolve them are the same. Make roll, beat target number, apply effect.
Your insistence that combat maneuver checks are not attacks is unbelievable.
Attacks of Opportunity are resolved prior to their triggering event. This is pretty uniform in the rules.
Your argument is that this particular AoO does not occur before prone because your argument is that falling prone is a part of the triggering event. I understand that. But that is a point in contention. The first argument that started all these threads was about when the AoO comes, whether before prone or after. If the triggering event is falling prone, then the AoO comes after the target is prone. If the triggering event is success of the maneuver which is determined separately from the application of the event, there is no reason to think the AoO comes after the target is prone. But that's the point of the discussion, so you can't simply assume the point in contention.
Everything you just quoted supports my understanding and application of AoOs to a high degree.
You have misunderstood those quotes.
Do this thought experiment for me. I want you to reread those quotes, but with an open mind... And while you are reading them, compare them to this;
An action has 3 basic steps. Declaration, determination, and resolution.
Nearly every AoO trigger is from the declaration of an action.
An AoO takes place immediately following the event that triggers it.
Thus... when someone performs an action that provokes an attack of opportunity, the AoO occurs before the action is resolved. (immediately following the declaration IS before the action is resolved)
In all cases, the AoOs happen immediately upon being triggered. They do not happen before their trigger event, that IS NOT POSSIBLE.
If an AoO happens before the event that triggers it... I could move away from a guy with my move action. This triggers an AoO before I even declared the action? He hits me... and then I full attack him. Why? Because I haven't yet declared when the AoO happens, so it somehow rewrote time itself? No... we've made an error.
The AoO happens immediately following the declaration. The move action is locked in. But it happens immediately, before the movement actually resolves.
This is universally true of AoOs. They happen immediately following the trigger event. The declaration of actions is by default the most common for of this.
Now, reread the quotes again, read it with this understanding of how AoOs work. You will see it.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally.
Declaration. AoO. Resolution.
Technically, the AoO occurs as the event that provokes it is taking place, but since we can't have "middle ground" conditions, they are pushed to before to keep things straightforward. This is the only way it makes sense for spellcasting, movement, and, in this case, standing up and trip.
AoOs from actions happen during the action. Ie. After declaration and before resolution.
Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved. In this case, the target is still prone when the attack of opportunity occurs (and you get the normal bonuses when making such an attack). Since the trip combat maneuver does not prevent the target's action, the target then stands up.
Before resolution. After declaration.
Every action that provokes an AoO does so when you declare that action. It happens immediately. Then you resolve the action.
Every time an AoO happens it happens immediately following the triggering event. By default that is the declaration of an action.
Greater Trip however causes the resolution of a Trip to force your opponent to provoke. This is a special case. It seems counter intuitive because it is a special case. But as always, the AoO happens immediately following the trigger. So... it happens immediately after the target is successfully tripped, ie immediately after they are knocked prone.
I wonder.
Do you know what "identical" or "exact same" mean?
If two things are different, then they are not "identical" or the "exact same".
So... I'm not sure what you are talking about. An attack to do damage is not the "exact same thing" as an attack to trip. They are not "identical".
Why do we know this? Because there ARE differences between them. The bonuses you add, the target number you need to hit, the steps to resolve them. Differences abound!
Not identical, not the exact same. Your insistence that they are is unbelievable.
Combat Maneuver Checks are Attacks. They are resolved the same way. That you might have different bonuses to add because of a feat or weapon used is irrelevant. Combat Maneuver Checks are Attacks.
And you're the one insisting on identicalness. I just said the rules are set up the same. And I'm just saying they're treated the same way. Because they are. That's why the steps to resolve them are the same. Make roll, beat target number, apply effect.
Your insistence that combat maneuver checks are not attacks is unbelievable.
I didn't say they weren't attacks. I said they weren't attacks to do damage. And they're not.
I didn't say they weren't attacks. I said they weren't attacks to do damage. And they're not.I wonder.
Do you know what "identical" or "exact same" mean?
If two things are different, then they are not "identical" or the "exact same".
So... I'm not sure what you are talking about. An attack to do damage is not the "exact same thing" as an attack to trip. They are not "identical".
Why do we know this? Because there ARE differences between them. The bonuses you add, the target number you need to hit, the steps to resolve them. Differences abound!
Not identical, not the exact same. Your insistence that they are is unbelievable.
Combat Maneuver Checks are Attacks. They are resolved the same way. That you might have different bonuses to add because of a feat or weapon used is irrelevant. Combat Maneuver Checks are Attacks.
And you're the one insisting on identicalness. I just said the rules are set up the same. And I'm just saying they're treated the same way. Because they are. That's why the steps to resolve them are the same. Make roll, beat target number, apply effect.
Your insistence that combat maneuver checks are not attacks is unbelievable.
And I never said they were identical. I said they were structured the exact same way. You sarcastically implied I think they're identical. I don't. They're structured the same way. So they resolve the same way.
Every action that provokes an AoO does so when you declare that action. It happens immediately. Then you resolve the action.
Every time an AoO happens it happens immediately following the triggering event. By default that is the declaration of an action.
Greater Trip however causes the resolution of a Trip to force your opponent to provoke. This is a special case. It seems counter intuitive because it is a special case. But as always, the AoO happens immediately following the trigger. So... it happens immediately after the target is successfully tripped, ie immediately after they are knocked prone.
I feel like you're not reading what I type. I understand what your point is. I understand why you think the AoO comes after the target is knocked prone.
The disagreement isn't about how AoO work. The disagreement is about what triggers the AoO.
You believe the AoO is triggered by the target actually getting knocked prone as a part of the Trip attack. I get that. It is a perfectly reasonable interpretation. My point has never been that this isn't a perfectly reasonable interpretation.
My point has been that there is another perfectly reasonable interpretation, and I'm not the only one who recognizes it. The other perfectly reasonable interpretation is that the trigger for the AoO is not the target falling prone but on determination of success of the Trip attack, which occurs separately from the effect being applied.
Your Position:
Effect is a part of the determination of Success (in regards to "Successfully trip ...")
My Position:
Effect is caused by the determination of Success
The triggers are different. There's no misunderstanding of how AoO work. We simply disagree on what triggers the AoO. I know you do not agree with this interpretation of what triggers the AoO, but can you see why, if the AoO is triggered by something independent of the effect being applied, the AoO can come before the effect is applied?
Every action that provokes an AoO does so when you declare that action. It happens immediately. Then you resolve the action.
Every time an AoO happens it happens immediately following the triggering event. By default that is the declaration of an action.
Greater Trip however causes the resolution of a Trip to force your opponent to provoke. This is a special case. It seems counter intuitive because it is a special case. But as always, the AoO happens immediately following the trigger. So... it happens immediately after the target is successfully tripped, ie immediately after they are knocked prone.
I feel like you're not reading what I type. I understand what your point is. I understand why you think the AoO comes after the target is knocked prone.
The disagreement isn't about how AoO work. The disagreement is about what triggers the AoO.
You believe the AoO is triggered by the target actually getting knocked prone as a part of the Trip attack. I get that. It is a perfectly reasonable interpretation. My point has never been that this isn't a perfectly reasonable interpretation.
My point has been that there is another perfectly reasonable interpretation, and I'm not the only one who recognizes it. The other perfectly reasonable interpretation is that the trigger for the AoO is not the target falling prone but on determination of success of the Trip attack, which occurs separately from the effect being applied.
Your Position:
Effect is a part of the determination of Success (in regards to "Successfully trip ...")My Position:
Effect is caused by the determination of SuccessThe triggers are different. There's no misunderstanding of how AoO work. We simply disagree on what triggers the AoO. I know you do not agree with this interpretation of what triggers the AoO, but can you see why, if the AoO is triggered by something independent of the effect being applied, the AoO can come before the effect is applied?
Ah, it seemed as though we had backslid into thinking AoOs reversed time. We agree that they do not. Lets move on.
If we apply your interpretation to Greater Disarm, then the weapon lands 15ft away before it is dropped.
Yes, AoOs are indeed immediate. But so too is anything that says it happens when it says it happens.
Greater Disarm tells us that the weapon lands 15ft away when "you successfully disarm an opponent".
If that refers to the attack roll succeeding, then the weapon lands 15ft away before the weapon drops. I argue this isn't possible, and thus this isn't the correct success we are looking for. We must be looking for the success of the action as a whole, and that the "lands 15ft away" would then happen immediately following the weapon being dropped.
That to me makes sense.
If we apply your interpretation to Greater Disarm, then the weapon lands 15ft away before it is dropped.
Not correct.
Yes, AoOs are indeed immediate. But so too is anything that says it happens when it says it happens.
Greater Disarm tells us that the weapon lands 15ft away when "you successfully disarm an opponent".
If that refers to the attack roll succeeding, then the weapon lands 15ft away before the weapon drops. I argue this isn't possible, and thus this isn't the correct success we are looking for. We must be looking for the success of the action as a whole, and that the "lands 15ft away" would then happen immediately following the weapon being dropped.
That to me makes sense.
Greater Disarm changes the effect. It changes what happens after the attack roll succeeds. Instead of dropping it at your feet, you drop it and it lands 15' away (it gets thrown out of your hand, so to speak). It doesn't interrupt the ordinary flow of events like the AoO from Greater Trip does. It says, "When you disarm someone, this happens instead." "This" is the weapon landing 15' away, instead of at your feet. The timing is no different. Roll, success, apply effect. The only difference is a slight modification to the applied effect.
I am not treating the weapon landing 15' away like an attack of opportunity. I am treating it like an alteration to the standard effect. If the effect has already occurred, meaning the weapon has already been dropped and landed at your feet, how does it get knocked 15' away?
If your interpretation requires a fully completed disarm, the weapon is already lying on the ground. If my interpretation only requires the successful check, the alteration occurs at the same time the effect is applied.
Before resolution. After declaration.
Is "getting knocked prone" part of the trip attack declaration or part of the resolution of said attack?
If we know the attack was a success, we know the opponent is going to end up prone - when the attack is resolved. We can therefore at that point in time say we have successfully tripped our opponent. We have not yet resolved the effects of successfully tripping our opponent. So now is the time to apply any AoO's that resulted from that.
Like fretgod99 I understand the opposing viewpoint - but the opposing viewpoint simply does not jive with everything that talks about how AoO's work.
Now its possible in this circumstance that the AoO might make being tripped impossible (though I cannot think of anything that would stop a trip). Kind of like how if a person is disarmed from an AoO while attacking they can no longer attack. Or a caster who is interrupted during the AoO no longer gets to resolve his casting of a spell. Or a arrow attack that hits but then misses due snatch arrows does not get to apply damage and effects.
If we apply your interpretation to Greater Disarm, then the weapon lands 15ft away before it is dropped.Not correct.
Yes, AoOs are indeed immediate. But so too is anything that says it happens when it says it happens.
Greater Disarm tells us that the weapon lands 15ft away when "you successfully disarm an opponent".
If that refers to the attack roll succeeding, then the weapon lands 15ft away before the weapon drops. I argue this isn't possible, and thus this isn't the correct success we are looking for. We must be looking for the success of the action as a whole, and that the "lands 15ft away" would then happen immediately following the weapon being dropped.
That to me makes sense.
Greater Disarm changes the effect. It changes what happens after the attack roll succeeds. Instead of dropping it at your feet, you drop it and it lands 15' away (it gets thrown out of your hand, so to speak). It doesn't interrupt the ordinary flow of events like the AoO from Greater Trip does. It says, "When you disarm someone, this happens instead." "This" is the weapon landing 15' away, instead of at your feet. The timing is no different. Roll, success, apply effect. The only difference is a slight modification to the applied effect.
I am not treating the weapon landing 15' away like an attack of opportunity. I am treating it like an alteration to the standard effect. If the effect has already occurred, meaning the weapon has already been dropped and landed at your feet, how does it get knocked 15' away?
"the weapon lands 15 feet away from its previous wielder, in a random direction."
This looks like it adds an effect. Care to explain how it changes the disarm effect instead of simply adding its own effect?
Remember, this is the effect of disarm "your target drops one item it is carrying of your choice".
I don't see how Greater Disarm changes that in any way. If someone with Greater Disarm disarms someone successfully, they still drop the weapon, but now with the additional effect of the weapon landing 15ft away.
The effect of greater disarm must follow after the effect of disarm.
If your interpretation requires a fully completed disarm, the weapon is already lying on the ground. If my interpretation only requires the successful check, the alteration occurs at the same time the effect is applied.
No. The weapon is not yet on the ground when a disarm is deemed successful. It is successful when they drop it. Then apply effect of Greater Disarm immediately, and it lands 15ft away.
Before resolution. After declaration.Is "getting knocked prone" part of the trip attack declaration or part of the resolution of said attack?
If we know the attack was a success, we know the opponent is going to end up prone - when the attack is resolved. We can therefore at that point in time say we have successfully tripped our opponent. We have not yet resolved the effects of successfully tripping our opponent. So now is the time to apply any AoO's that resulted from that.
Like fretgod99 I understand the opposing viewpoint - but the opposing viewpoint simply does not jive with everything that talks about how AoO's work.
Now its possible in this circumstance that the AoO might make being tripped impossible (though I cannot think of anything that would stop a trip). Kind of like how if a person is disarmed from an AoO while attacking they can no longer attack. Or a caster who is interrupted during the AoO no longer gets to resolve his casting of a spell. Or a arrow attack that hits but then misses due snatch arrows does not get to apply damage and effects.
So, a trip is successful when the die roll exceed their CMD? Then the AoO from successfully tripping them. Then the trip misses because of concealment. You fail to trip them. But you and your buddies got your AoOs! So what if your trip didn't effect them in any way whatsoever.
This makes sense to you?
If your interpretation requires a fully completed disarm, the weapon is already lying on the ground. If my interpretation only requires the successful check, the alteration occurs at the same time the effect is applied.No. The weapon is not yet on the ground when a disarm is deemed successful. It is successful when they drop it. Then apply effect of Greater Disarm immediately, and it lands 15ft away.
Hm, this sounds an awful lot like saying that the AoO from Greater Trip occurs while the target is falling to the ground, but hasn't actually landed prone yet.
Before resolution. After declaration.Is "getting knocked prone" part of the trip attack declaration or part of the resolution of said attack?
If we know the attack was a success, we know the opponent is going to end up prone - when the attack is resolved. We can therefore at that point in time say we have successfully tripped our opponent. We have not yet resolved the effects of successfully tripping our opponent. So now is the time to apply any AoO's that resulted from that.
Like fretgod99 I understand the opposing viewpoint - but the opposing viewpoint simply does not jive with everything that talks about how AoO's work.
Now its possible in this circumstance that the AoO might make being tripped impossible (though I cannot think of anything that would stop a trip). Kind of like how if a person is disarmed from an AoO while attacking they can no longer attack. Or a caster who is interrupted during the AoO no longer gets to resolve his casting of a spell. Or a arrow attack that hits but then misses due snatch arrows does not get to apply damage and effects.
So, a trip is successful when the die roll exceed their CMD? Then the AoO from successfully tripping them. Then the trip misses because of concealment. You fail to trip them.
This makes sense to you?
If you treat it just like you do "Hits" from the general attack rules it works out just fine. The successful trip is negated by the concealment. Just like a successful hit is negated by concealment.
So, no AoO because your trip wasn't successful. Just like no fire damage from your flaming weapon because the hit wasn't successful.
Hm, this sounds an awful lot like saying that the AoO from Greater Trip occurs while the target is falling to the ground, but hasn't actually landed prone yet.If your interpretation requires a fully completed disarm, the weapon is already lying on the ground. If my interpretation only requires the successful check, the alteration occurs at the same time the effect is applied.No. The weapon is not yet on the ground when a disarm is deemed successful. It is successful when they drop it. Then apply effect of Greater Disarm immediately, and it lands 15ft away.
Then you should be familiar with the concept.
The only difference between the two is this: The time after a weapon is dropped is a point in time in the game world. The point in time between the opponent being knocked off balance and them becoming prone is not a point in time in the game world.
What step in the trip attack correlates to it? None. What step in disarm correlates to the weapon being dropped? Resolution.
Before resolution. After declaration.Is "getting knocked prone" part of the trip attack declaration or part of the resolution of said attack?
If we know the attack was a success, we know the opponent is going to end up prone - when the attack is resolved. We can therefore at that point in time say we have successfully tripped our opponent. We have not yet resolved the effects of successfully tripping our opponent. So now is the time to apply any AoO's that resulted from that.
Like fretgod99 I understand the opposing viewpoint - but the opposing viewpoint simply does not jive with everything that talks about how AoO's work.
Now its possible in this circumstance that the AoO might make being tripped impossible (though I cannot think of anything that would stop a trip). Kind of like how if a person is disarmed from an AoO while attacking they can no longer attack. Or a caster who is interrupted during the AoO no longer gets to resolve his casting of a spell. Or a arrow attack that hits but then misses due snatch arrows does not get to apply damage and effects.
So, a trip is successful when the die roll exceed their CMD? Then the AoO from successfully tripping them. Then the trip misses because of concealment. You fail to trip them.
This makes sense to you?
If you treat it just like you do "Hits" from the general attack rules it works out just fine. The successful trip is negated by the concealment. Just like a successful hit is negated by concealment.
So, no AoO because your trip wasn't successful. Just like no fire damage from your flaming weapon because the hit wasn't successful.
But...
AoOs are resolved IMMEDIATELY remember? So.. before ANY check for concealment!
Trip roll succeeds. AoO. Then check concealment. Miss target. Trip action Fails. But hey, you got free AoOs from nothing happening, so, wewt.
But...
AoOs are resolved IMMEDIATELY remember? So.. before ANY check for concealment!
Trip roll succeeds. AoO. Then check concealment. Miss target. Trip action Fails. But hey, you got free AoOs from nothing happening, so, wewt.
Immediately upon determination of success. Concealment overrides success. Just like it does with normal attack rolls. It's pretty cool how it all lines up like that. So no AoO.
Immediately upon determination of success. Concealment overrides success. Just like it does with normal attack rolls. It's pretty cool how it all lines up like that. So no AoO.But...
AoOs are resolved IMMEDIATELY remember? So.. before ANY check for concealment!
Trip roll succeeds. AoO. Then check concealment. Miss target. Trip action Fails. But hey, you got free AoOs from nothing happening, so, wewt.
Concealment overrides success of the roll, AFTER the success of the roll.
If the AoO triggers immediately, which it does, and the trigger is simply a successful roll, which you claim, then the AoO comes before the concealment check.
What are you saying triggers the AoO again? The die roll succeeding, or is it something else now?
So, a trip is successful when the die roll exceed their CMD? Then the AoO from successfully tripping them. Then the trip misses because of concealment. You fail to trip them. But you and your buddies got your AoOs! So what if your trip didn't effect them in any way whatsoever.This makes sense to you?
You should read what I'm actually saying. You should NOT put words in my mouth.
If we know the attack was a success, we know the opponent is going to end up prone - when the attack is resolved.
1) I didn't say anything about concealment being a part of the equation, if you want to include that in the determination of making a successful trip we can, but the answer should be obvious. But concealment really has no place in this discussion. The simple case is sufficient to understand how the whole thing works. Once the simple case is understood the more complex cases of interactions with concealment and the like can be added in.
2) Is an attack that hits but is negated because of concealment, crane wing, snatch arrows, etc considered a success?
So to answer your question.
A trip is successful when you beat the CMD, have accounted for the opponent actually being trippable (not an ooze, snake, flyer, etc). You've accounted for things like concealment. You've accounted for things like the act of trying to trip someone resulting in an AoO against you (not a issue with greater trip/improved trip) and said AoO against you resulting in your death. You've accounted for any other factors - readied actions to kill you if you trip me - whatever.
If after all of those the trip attack goes through, beating the CMD - then you have successfully tripped your opponent.
Now normally at this point we would then proceed to the resolution of the successful trip - e.g, apply the prone condition. With greater trip we now interrupt this success with the AoO's generated by it prior to applying prone. When the AoO's are all done, if it is possible for the target to still be prone, we at last apply the prone condition.
AoOs are resolved IMMEDIATELY remember? So.. before ANY check for concealment!
The rules don't spell it out (they shouldn't need to), but checking concealment conditions is part of determining whether you've actually had success in hitting/tripping/disarming/etc your opponent or not.
Your grasping at straws to make your case doesn't help your view point.