RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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The section on Character Creation in the Guide is what you'll want to direct your players towards. Players can use anything that's listed as legal in the Additional Resources provided they can present that resource to you as GM (physical copy or PDF) when you have questions regarding it.
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The section on Character Creation in the Guide is what you'll want to direct your players towards. Players can use anything that's listed as legal in the Additional Resources provided they can present that resource to you as GM (physical copy or PDF) when you have questions regarding it.
What he said.
And before they even mention it, the PRD/D20PFSRD/Archives of Nethys/ HeroLab are NOT legal sources to get stuff from.
And to answer your question specifically, YES, both of those are perfectly legal to play, with the assumption that they own the necessary products. :)
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The section on Character Creation in the Guide is what you'll want to direct your players towards. Players can use anything that's listed as legal in the Additional Resources provided they can present that resource to you as GM (physical copy or PDF) when you have questions regarding it.What he said.
And before they even mention it, the PRD/D20PFSRD/Archives of Nethys/ HeroLab are NOT legal sources to get stuff from.
And to answer your question specifically, YES, both of those are perfectly legal to play, with the assumption that they own the necessary products. :)
Might be wrong and often am but Hero lab has a checkbox you can click if you are using society rules and it automatically only provides the resources that ARE legal. When building a PC using HL I can SEE many other options but they are all Greyed out since they are illegal for PFS play.
It has made life so easy for me to build a PC and so far no issues.
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Hero Lab is a third party product, and not an approved Additional Resource for PFS play.
Which is to say that it is a wonderful tool but possessing a license for a Hero Lab data package is NOT a substitute for having the Additional Resource in print or signed pdf form. Even if you have the "Player Companion #8" package for Hero Lab you must still have a copy of the "Blood of Angels" Paizo book in order to use material from it.
You are still welcome to use Hero Lab to help in creating your character as long as you can derive all your information (AC, saves, skills, hit modifiers, etc.) without it as well - Hero Lab does make some errors. Remember your chronicles are your official records.
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Hero Lab is a third party product, and not an approved Additional Resource for PFS play.Which is to say that it is a wonderful tool but possessing a license for a Hero Lab data package is NOT a substitute for having the Additional Resource in print or signed pdf form. Even if you have the "Player Companion #8" package for Hero Lab you must still have a copy of the "Blood of Angels" Paizo book in order to use material from it.
You are still welcome to use Hero Lab to help in creating your character as long as you can derive all your information (AC, saves, skills, hit modifiers, etc.) without it as well - Hero Lab does make some errors. Remember your chronicles are your official records.
Yes, this is what I meant, sorry. You cant show up and say 'but I bought it on HeroLab' and use that as your resource. It doesnt count in that regard.
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"Might be wrong and often am but Hero lab has a checkbox you can click if you are using society rules and it automatically only provides the resources that ARE legal. When building a PC using HL I can SEE many other options but they are all Greyed out since they are illegal for PFS play.
It has made life so easy for me to build a PC and so far no issues."
There are checkboxes that you can turn off or on in Hero Lab for a PFS character that you still have to own to be able to use on your character. So just being legal does not drop the requirement to own the product.
Paizo can state all they want that it is so the player has that resource available for rules questions but with the at your digital fingertips availability of all relevant info, that doesnt really pass the sniff test. Paizo wants to sell you more stuff.
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Paizo can state all they want that it is so the player has that resource available for rules questions but with the at your digital fingertips availability of all relevant info, that doesnt really pass the sniff test. Paizo wants to sell you more stuff.
First off, PFS is a marketing took for Paizo and if they ask you to purchase something to use the resource it is not that unreasonable to ask. If I am at a table GMing and a player has some odd thing I have never heard of I want a legal source to show me. Legal sources are identified as either the book, or a PDF with said players name on it, just like I am going to have the books with the resources I use for my GM. There are tons of books out there and a GM should not be expected to know everything about your character. While resources like Herolab/d20pfsrd/etc are great they are not always accurate, or up to the latest errata published by Paizo. I take a very hard stance against players that pirate material like this or expect to be able to use stuff from resources they don't own. Paizo does a lot of great things for their fan base. The least we can do is support them by purchasing their products and not stealing them.
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I would also say that using Hero Lab is not a good idea for a new player. I'm sure it's a wonderful tool, but you still need to understand the rules and how the game and your character work. A lot of that knowledge is acquired by character building and understanding how everything is related. Or, maybe I'm just getting old...
Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Pullman
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My favorite Hero Lab bug was one that allowed you to make a PFS legal character that was a half-orc with +2 to three different stats.
Because you can obviously be an adopted half-orc that picks up the dual talent alternate racial feature of humans.*
Now I have to rebuild...
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Actually from the Additional resources page linked above:
Pathfinder Player Companion: Blood of Fiends
Bloodlines: daemon bloodline is not legal for Pathfinder Society;
OH man! You about gave me a heart attack! I've got two grimspawn (daemon-spawn heritage) tieflings and thought I'd overlooked that ban.
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Yes, this is what I meant, sorry. You cant show up and say 'but I bought it on HeroLab' and use that as your resource. It doesnt count in that regard.Hero Lab is a third party product, and not an approved Additional Resource for PFS play.Which is to say that it is a wonderful tool but possessing a license for a Hero Lab data package is NOT a substitute for having the Additional Resource in print or signed pdf form. Even if you have the "Player Companion #8" package for Hero Lab you must still have a copy of the "Blood of Angels" Paizo book in order to use material from it.
You are still welcome to use Hero Lab to help in creating your character as long as you can derive all your information (AC, saves, skills, hit modifiers, etc.) without it as well - Hero Lab does make some errors. Remember your chronicles are your official records.
Wow well thats pretty ridiculous. I was under the impression that HL should have some sort of license to repurpose PFS material and if they do then Paizo should have seen some benefit, either up front or on a per purchase basis.
It makes no sense to purchase the same product twice from HL and from Paizo for exactly the same information. HL and Paizo either need to work together or not, no way in hell am I going to purchase the same information twice. Granted I have several pieces of material on hand but there is an item or 2 I purchased on HL. If this is not the case maybe they should offer some affiliate income to HL for the sale of Paizo products, charge for licensing or maybe even come out with their own online tool.
My idea of fun (as a new player) is not thumbing through several books or browsing through multiple PDF's in order to put together a PC that will comply with PFS rules.
Thats my 2 copper.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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My idea of fun (as a new player) is not thumbing through several books or browsing through multiple PDF's in order to put together a PC that will comply with PFS rules.
Great! There's no one forcing you to do so. There are TONS of awesome character concepts that can be built from the core rulebook alone. Don't believe me, check out the NPC Codex sometime. All the characters are made with only the CRB.
One of the big reasons that third party sources like Hero Lab or d20pfsrd.org aren't allowed as legal copies is paizo has no control over how accurate their rules are. A word or two missing or added can drastically change feats/spells/classes, and third parties don't necessarily have the quality control that Paizo does.
What happens if someone uses a feat at first level that has been incorrectly entered into HL and suddenly at 8th level is told that the feat is wrong and it completely ruins their character concept? That's (a reason) why players are required to own the books/watermarked PDFs of things.
Paizo can release updates/errata when some of their products are wrong, but they have no control over third parties when their stuff is wrong. If you buy a PDF from Paizo, if they ever update it, you should get an email letting you know. That way you can stay current with any changes.
Kinglouis, you have at least brought further entertainment to this hobby...
FYI, you should check out Archives of Nethys,
it's a fan-maintained archive of Pathfinder material, it's more word-for-word accurate than d20pfsrd,
and includes a handy icon showing which options are PFS legal and which are not.
It's searchable by many options, and everything it catalogs has a web-link direct to the relevant product on Paizo's/Amazon's webstore,
so you can easily purchase the needed books for PFS. Great tool for browsing legal options for PFS.
Also, Im fairly sure if you own the book/pdf and there is a change, you get an email notifying you about the new errata. That way you never have to worry about searching for changes.
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Thanks for all the input. Yes I know gret PC's can be made from the Core rulebook, I used that and it was fun.
That is what led me to buy more books Like the Inner Sea guide. Then I heard about Hero Lab and found it to be accurate.
I want to address some of the other points too. If HL is using PF material, arent they REQUIRED to have some sort of permission? They are literally using their product to sell their product.
HL does have an option for PFS play, you select that option all the PFS legal feats, classes, races are selectable and those that arent show up but cannot be selected. As far as errors, there are errors in PDF's, Character sheets etc. too, there are also revisions. HL updates files all the time, 1st thing it does when you load it is search for updates.
I am curious to understand the business relationship between HL and Paizo.
EDIT- Well isnt this cute? http://paizo.com/products/btpy7wo1?Hero-Lab SMH
(more info directly from the Lone Wolf Forums)
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=45153
They do get a royalty every time I buy a package from HL and then would like me to buy the PDF too to be "legal"
Legal for what? Do we win prize money if we win a teh Pathfinder?
I understand they want to generate revenue but they ARE generating revenue when I buy the upgrade.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Whether they generate revenue on Herolab or not isn't germaine to the issue.
Herolab isn't an official source as is required to be brought to the table. If I want to see option X, I don't want to see Herolab's take on option X, or d20prd's take or Archives of Nethys, I want to see the original source text.
Or to take another route, Paizo gets a portion of sales from their site, it doesn't mean that SGG/RGG's guides are suddenly PFS legal.
It's not a matter of 'greed' it's a matter of consistancy.
And thisis coming from a charter superscriber who also buys the Herolab data packets because I find the cost/convienence ration high.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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My understanding is that it's less about accuracy and more about having the original text, in some form, to show a GM during play when you have an ability they don't recognize. That and combating piracy. Plus not all venues have internet access (I know the local areas I've played PFS do not), which means the PRD isn't always accessible.
Actually, having to "rebuy" all my Pathfinder stuff is the main reason I don't have Herolab - with my rather large collection I'd be looking at 100s of dollars just to catch up.
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Simple fix then, when a data package is purchased, provide the PDF via email!
Its not rocket science, they are already getting paid for the product.
Well, an analysis of this is as follows:
A Hero Lab package is about $8, correct? Usually they include at least 3 resources. These resources each are about $5-8 in PDF form. So if they included the PDFs for each package you purchase, you'd be getting at least $15 of product for $8, in addition to the package that you purchased for use with the software. This doesn't make much sense. Perhaps there could be a combo deal where you could buy both the PDFs and the Hero Lab data, but it would definitely cost more than it currently does.
I also just don't foresee that happening.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I think that the requirement for players to own Paizo produced copies of the rules they use to make their PCs is so that a GM doesn't have to trust Herolab--a non official, often incorrect resource--when they have rules questions about a PCs ability.
I know that I don't trust Herolab to 100% correct (see my aforementioned bug), even though I use it for the PC of my bimonthly online game. Even then, I double check everything it tells me on paper, and have occasionally found mistakes.
I got a copy of HL at PaizoCon last year and it's a great product. It's amazing with making online play easy; being able to email your character porfolio to the GM, and allow them the check everything that's going on. I've used form-fillable PDFs in the past and I like them as well, but in the arena of digital character building Herolab takes the cake. I like being able to churn out PCs and NPCs like crazy when I'm bored. However, when I really want to dig into mechanics and make sure everything is ship shape, I steer clear. Maybe only using it to generate a nice stat block after I'm done building.
EDIT: Gave Herolab more respect.
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Whim? Lets back up for a second.
Dont have to be a jerk about this, I am having a discussion about an issue that is easily corrected.
1- PDF's are easy to create and already created for those not using HL
2- Paizo is being paid for their work, not once did I say that they dont deserve revenue for their work, that is why early on I asked the question.
3- They sell Hero Lab right here, Hero Lab cannot sell their products without compensation, if they need a bigger cut to compensate for some small revenue loss then by all means renegotiate the deal and get a bigger cut.
4- I work in internet marketing, rule #1 is make it EASY for the customer. Having rules all over the place is bad business, making customers buy the same data in multiple locations is bad business.
I dont mind paying, I go out of my way to support Paizo by buying books, buying mini's and what not. I go out of my way to make book store owners happy to see a notoriously frugal crowd. I buy products and mini's from them every time I visit. I buy their soft drinks and snacks to give them revenue.
I go out of my way to improve the GM's and other players games, often buying the whole table beverages, which also helps the business owner.
I dont agree with the practice, its a bad one. The goal should always be to make the product better and the buying experience better, the way they have it set up its not.
EDIT- Several replies came in while I was posting, some even offering legitimate suggestions! They are not generating enough revenue? Ask HL for more, then they will raise the price, no biggie!! Ill pay it.
PDF's a problem for DM's? simple, supply a PDF along with the data package. Last time I checked the US Postal service does not charge to deliver me an email. :)
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Just so you know, King Louis, the reason why you're seeing some pushback here is that this topic comes up frequently.
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EDIT- Several replies came in while I was posting, some even offering legitimate suggestions! They are not generating enough revenue? Ask HL for more, then they will raise the price, no biggie!! Ill pay it.
Unfortunately, the fact that you would pay for such a deal doesn't make it that everyone would. Some people don't purchase the PDFs and do purchase the Hero Lab content, and they wouldn't appreciate having to pay a higher price to get those PDFs that they don't really want. It could be possible that they already own hard copies of the books.
Like I said, there could be some kind of combo deal available for it, but I don't see that happening. You can get both products quite easily as is.
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EDIT- Several replies came in while I was posting, some even offering legitimate suggestions! They are not generating enough revenue? Ask HL for more, then they will raise the price, no biggie!! Ill pay it.Unfortunately, the fact that you would pay for such a deal doesn't make it that everyone would. Some people don't purchase the PDFs and do purchase the Hero Lab content, and they wouldn't appreciate having to pay a higher price to get those PDFs that they don't really want. It could be possible that they already own hard copies of the books.
Like I said, there could be some kind of combo deal available for it, but I don't see that happening. You can get both products quite easily as is.
Why wouldn't it? I am not saying eliminate what they have just add a PFS friendly combo.
And the fact that this DOES come up frequently should be a clear indicator that maybe it should be looked into. They are selling the product on their very site, the product generates revenue for the company. Adding another option would be very simple.
As I said internet marketing IS what I do. I sell nutritional products, about 7 of them in fact. When a combo package of 2 different items was created our sales went UP. Sure we took a smaller profit for each product but had bigger sales. Now we have customers buying 2 products at a discount instead of just one at regular price.
Another point is I am in EXACTLY the same position as Paizo is with the products. We are (on a separate site) pushing an information product for a 3rd party that also includes one of my supplements. The order is placed and I get the order, process it send them the supplement and they get the information via DVD and PDF. All in one place.
Its not rocket science, in fact this situation is much easier than mine because there is not a physical product to worry about.
Finally, I think they are missing the boat. I think there will be home players or casual players that WOULD pay for the upgrade just in case they want to go to a PFS table.
All we are talking about is an optional button and delivery of a PDF for Christs sake, even if it IS at an extra cost.
PS- Thanks for those that have chimed in I appreciate the feedback.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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No, you are talking about two *seperate* companies, neither of whom have a terribly advanced or robust purchasing system, merging their purchasing stream, such that one company sells licenses for both companies products... They would also need to negotiate who eats how much of the discount.
These are both things that would be relatively trivial if hero lab were developed in house. In practice they are very hard when two separate corporate entities try to do them. I am glad that your company was able to do it, but not every company can.
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No, you are talking about two *seperate* companies, neither of whom have a terribly advanced or robust purchasing system, merging their purchasing stream, such that one company sells licenses for both companies products... They would also need to negotiate who eats how much of the discount.
These are both things that would be relatively trivial if hero lab were developed in house. In practice they are very hard when two separate corporate entities try to do them. I am glad that your company was able to do it, but not every company can.
I understand that being 2 different companies presents some challenges but again I have a simple solution.
Hero Lab creates a PFS package for additional cost Paizo provides them the PDF's. When a customer goes to buy the PFS "friendly" package, Hero labs delivers the data package and emails the user the PDF. Paizo collects the extra $$$ for the upgrade.
There is not much in the way of crossing streams. No need to integrate any more than they already are, again its just a PDF we are talking about.
I want to be legal I dont mind paying but truth be told most GM's I deal with know the rules and as of yet I have not been asked once for a rule clarification.
So my Catfolk Ranger is happily riding away on his permanently hasted Trex with no issues so far. :)
But if the option to upgrade were available I would gladly do it. Make it easy for me Paizo.
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There's nothing more to say on this subject, really. I just don't think it's gonna happen.
So my Catfolk Ranger is happily riding away on his permanently hasted Trex with no issues so far. :)
I hope you're being facetious. (Don't take it as an insult. Hard to detect sarcasm on the internet if that is what it is.)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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I understand that being 2 different companies presents some challenges but again I have a simple solution.
Hero Lab creates a PFS package for additional cost Paizo provides them the PDF's. When a customer goes to buy the PFS "friendly" package, Hero labs delivers the data package and emails the user the PDF. Paizo collects the extra $$$ for the upgrade.
Technologically, if it were going to happen, it would have to be the other way around. Because of how watermarking works with paizo pdfs, what you are talking about would mean that Herolab buyers would have to give Hero Lab their Paizo account numbers and passwords. It would also add a huge vulnerablity to Paizo's electronic purchasing system if anyone figured out how to spoof HL's pdf request system.
Hero lab could far more easily dispatch a batch of license keys to paizo, as they do for the basic set. That would still leave a lot of questions on how to share the proceeds. Especially since hero lab's model is "make the base technology cheap / free so we can sell lots of expensive add ons."
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I was definitely being sarcastic but I hope you caught my not so subtle point.
Even reviewing the other threads most DM's are not the copyright police nor are they the "do you own this pdf" police. They ask for the PDF to confirm an effect and that is pretty much it.
So all over the world DM's are happily DM'ng without a care, players are happily playing except for the off chance something new comes up that a DM is not aware of.
I am offering solutions that will generate revenue and will have users of HL be proactive. If they dont want to make a simple fix, then everyone will keep doing what they are doing.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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My dad likes to work on cars. Sometimes when I visit, he'll even work on mine for/with me. :D
One time, he needed to take some bolts or something off, and discovered he didn't have a wrench of the correct size. So he went to the hardware store and bought a set of wrenches. When he got home, he discovered that the pack he'd purchased was metric instead of U.S., so even the closest one didn't fit.
So he was right back where he started: he needed to go buy a new wrench.
Now, what do you suppose his reaction was? Do you think he said "That's pretty silly that Honda would require me to buy the same thing twice"? Or do you think he said "Oops, I bought the wrong thing"?
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I understand that being 2 different companies presents some challenges but again I have a simple solution.
Hero Lab creates a PFS package for additional cost Paizo provides them the PDF's. When a customer goes to buy the PFS "friendly" package, Hero labs delivers the data package and emails the user the PDF. Paizo collects the extra $$$ for the upgrade.
Technologically, if it were going to happen, it would have to be the other way around. Because of how watermarking works with paizo pdfs, what you are talking about would mean that Herolab buyers would have to give Hero Lab their Paizo account numbers and passwords. It would also add a huge vulnerablity to Paizo's electronic purchasing system if anyone figured out how to spoof HL's pdf request system.
Hero lab could far more easily dispatch a batch of license keys to paizo, as they do for the basic set. That would still leave a lot of questions on how to share the proceeds. Especially since hero lab's model is "make the base technology cheap / free so we can sell lots of expensive add ons."
Excellent another great solution.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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No need to see a PDF in that case. Permanency is one of the banned spells in PFS. Check your latest edition of the Guide to Organized Play for a complete list of legal and illegal spells.
If, instead, you are being facetious with your example, I'd remind you that we've all just been informing you of the current set of rules. No one that's posted here has the authority to make any of the changes you are suggesting. Yes, it would be nice if HL offered free PDFs with your purchase. No, they currently do not. And no, HL is not a legal resource to provide your GMs when they ask to see the books you used to make your character. That's just how it is.
Also, this topic has come up before and was discussed ad nauseum previously. I recommend you check it out. There's not much traction to be gained going over it all again. =|
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Come to our tables.
We don't ask on everything, but there are a few we ask on.
Ive never tried to play anything exotic but every now and again I might. Most fly under the radar.
But this thread is becoming unproductive, maybe Paizo looks into maybe not, maybe Hero Labs does maybe not. I went ahead an emailed Lone Wolf Development suggesting a PFS friendly product at an upgraded cost which still allows non PFS player to buy it the way it is now.
Maybe they will listen. Who knows.
4- I work in internet marketing, rule #1 is make it EASY for the customer. Having rules all over the place is bad business, making customers buy the same data in multiple locations is bad business.
The #1 rule of a business, any business, is to do enough business to keep the doors open.
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Hero Lab creates a PFS package for additional cost Paizo provides them the PDF's. When a customer goes to buy the PFS "friendly" package, Hero labs delivers the data package and emails the user the PDF. Paizo collects the extra $$$ for the upgrade.
That sounds simple. It isn't.
First, Paizo and HL would have to work out exactly how much those 'additional cost's and 'extra $$$' are, and how much of each goes to each company. Both have an incentive to keep the overall cost down and keep the lion's share of the profit. And keep in mind that Paizo doesn't run PFS to generate revenue for HeroLab.
Then Paizo's tech people and HL's tech people would have to modify their order processing systems to accommodate adding PDFs at HeroLab's request, with sufficient security to avoid spoofing, and enough accountability to figure out who owes how much money at the end of the month. (I can guarantee you that Paizo will never allow their PDFs to be emailed directly or downloaded from a third party.)
Then both companies would have to deal with any customer service complications that come from spanning two companies, like HeroLab customers who gave the wrong Paizo.com account and can't access their PDF. Or who want a refund from one company or the other.
That sounds like an awful lot of work to save you $3.
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Hero Lab creates a PFS package for additional cost Paizo provides them the PDF's. When a customer goes to buy the PFS "friendly" package, Hero labs delivers the data package and emails the user the PDF. Paizo collects the extra $$$ for the upgrade.
That sounds simple. It isn't.
First, Paizo and HL would have to work out exactly how much those 'additional cost's and 'extra $$$' are, and how much of each goes to each company. Both have an incentive to keep the overall cost down and keep the lion's share of the profit. And keep in mind that Paizo doesn't run PFS to generate revenue for HeroLab.
Then Paizo's tech people and HL's tech people would have to modify their order processing systems to accommodate adding PDFs at HeroLab's request, with sufficient security to avoid spoofing, and enough accountability to figure out who owes how much money at the end of the month. (I can guarantee you that Paizo will never allow their PDFs to be emailed directly or downloaded from a third party.)
Then both companies would have to deal with any customer service complications that come from spanning two companies, like HeroLab customers who gave the wrong Paizo.com account and can't access their PDF. Or who want a refund from one company or the other.
That sounds like an awful lot of work to save you $3.
Its a one and done situation, again I am in internet marketing and we make changes all the time and YES we are partnering with a company that wants our physical product in addition to their information product, working out the price was easy, working out the logistics a bit harder but once done its done. Then we have fulfillment of a physical product and all the hassle that goes with shipping and receiving.
So yeah I understand its not like snapping your fingers if they insist on having a Paizo watermark, or they could have a database with HL watermarks that are shared between companies without the issue of having to log in to our accounts etc...
There are a number of ways this can be worked out and yes it takes work and no its not about $3. Not once have I mentioned price at all. Its just money really which is simply a tool.
Its about convenience and having the "feeling" of buying the same product twice when the truth is it doesn't get checked that often anyway.
I am a "can do" person when it comes to business and service, not the other way around. Its ok to oppose my opinion but it seems to be a pretty prevalent situation based on other threads I have read. They may as well make money from it.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Or what happens when I buy PDF1 from paizo, and click the "please include HL licence key for $6" and then I buy PDF2 from paizo, and click the same link, only to discover when I plug in the licence key that I already had that product installed, because HL add ons are multiple PDFs?
In otherwords, it would be nice, but it just won't happen.
(Personally, I wish hero lab was more like GCA. You buy the software, and then just load the data files you want. But then the trade off there is that GCA is just there to handle the math for you, it doesn't have the full rules for each thing you use.)