I need a god for a (former) paladin who is Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral, pro-humanity/civilization/expansion, and intolerant of "evil" races such as orcs. The god can be from Paizo or TSR/WotC sources for my purposes, although one with strong equivalency in both systems might be interesting. The gods needs to be the type whose church would endorse witch hunts, inquisitions, and crusades- all the infamous Lawful "Good" stuff.
Aroden.
This one, but he's dead... which could explain the former paladin angle.
Lazaro's selection is good. I'd go with Abadar or Iomedae. Erastil for that more, rural flavor.
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Look up Zarus if you don't mind non-Golarion specific. He's technically Lawful Evil, but that's just other races being jealous; he's more LN to humans. I could definitely see him having Paladins
Why would an elf ever be jealous of a human?
And yeah, I would never allow Paladins of Zarus.
They'd violate the Code of Conduct by supporting slavery.
I reccomend the Church of the Silver Flame from Eberron. They endorsed witch hunts, actually.
Not only that, but they also had an inquisition that took part in some "extermination" operations, too.
Why would an elf ever be jealous of a human?
And yeah, I would never allow Paladins of Zarus.
They'd violate the Code of Conduct by supporting slavery.
Because Humans just do it all better. As far as "the code," different priorities for different gods.
Yeah, they do all the evils of the world better than other races. I'd be so jealous...
The closest thing to a Paladin that a Zarus follower can hope for is either Cleric or Anti-Paladin.
Why would an elf ever be jealous of a human?
And yeah, I would never allow Paladins of Zarus.
They'd violate the Code of Conduct by supporting slavery.
I reccomend the Church of the Silver Flame from Eberron. They endorsed witch hunts, actually.
Abadar can have paladins and he doesn't directly oppose slavery. He prefers paid laborers, but doesn't condem slaverly or ban it. He does object to mistreating slaves; mostly because it is a waste of resources. Dude is totally the ultimate Realpolitician.
Don't be jealous of the bonus feat, flexible stat distribution, and the option of three Skill Foci for one feat, elf-lover. Humanity does it all and always wins; we're level 20 by the time you hit puberty.
Code of Conduct
"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."
The developers have said that people who own slaves cannot really be of the Good alignment, even if they treated said slaves well. So even though Abadar (and his Clerics) might not be opposed to owning slaves, a Paladin of Abadar would still have to refuse if he wants to keep his powers. However, since this character is a fallen Paladin, there's nothing holding him back from doing so.
Don't be jealous of the bonus feat, flexible stat distribution, and the option of three Skill Foci for one feat, elf-lover. Humanity does it all and always wins; we're level 20 by the time you hit puberty.
You mean dead of old age by the time an elf reaches adulthood? Nice. Go team humanity!
But hey, now I know how to RP a Cleric of Zarus; Obnoxious and only capable of ad hominems when debating.
Should have focused more on Zarus wanting humans to dominate the other races and commit genocide towards half-elves as an argument against him having paladins.
I assumed people knew he's evil.
But yeah, Paladins don't do genocide.
Oh, and I still believe Humans are "Usually Evil".
We have enough real world history as evidence supporting this view.
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A few more now that I'm thinking about it
* Ragathiel - Lawful Good with an attitude
* Smiad - Taking the fight to evil dragons
* Kelinahat - The Empyreal Lords spy master
* Damerrich- The bloody executioner
* Vildeis- Fanatical devotion to eradicating all evil everywhere.
* Arqueros - Stalwart defender, protecting against corruption and evil
Don't be jealous of the bonus feat, flexible stat distribution, and the option of three Skill Foci for one feat, elf-lover. Humanity does it all and always wins; we're level 20 by the time you hit puberty.You mean dead of old age by the time an elf reaches adulthood? Nice. Go team humanity!
But hey, now I know how to RP a Cleric of Zarus; Obnoxious and only capable of ad hominems when debating.
Mo' humans with mo' higher levels, that's racial domination. Done more in that short life span than most elves will with an eternity, and left more offspring to do the same. That's how dynasties are built and how the West was won. It's ok to be mad. What else can a non-human be when faced with that truth of Zarus?
That aside, I fall into the "absolute Paladin rigidness should have been phased out by now" camp. RAW you are right about a "Lawful Evil" deity having Paladins. I'm not disputing that, I just think that RAW is a sacred cow that deserves to be butchered. If you feel otherwise, then there's really nothing more to say; it's a pretty dividing issue and we just won't see eye to eye on it.
Actually, I think the OP should go with Abadar. He offers the chance to be a Paladin back in the character's better days, and there's still a place for him in the church even after his deity saw him unfit as a paragon of good. The character's free to believe he's still good and that his faith is just being tested, when he's definitely Lawful Neutral if not Lawful Evil for advocating genocide and witch hunts in the name of civilization and humanity.
Don't be jealous of the bonus feat, flexible stat distribution, and the option of three Skill Foci for one feat, elf-lover. Humanity does it all and always wins; we're level 20 by the time you hit puberty.You mean dead of old age by the time an elf reaches adulthood? Nice. Go team humanity!
But hey, now I know how to RP a Cleric of Zarus; Obnoxious and only capable of ad hominems when debating.
Mo' humans with mo' higher levels, that's racial domination. Done more in that short life span than most elves will with an eternity, and left more offspring to do the same. That's how dynasties are built and how the West was won. It's ok to be mad. What else can a non-human be when faced with that truth of Zarus?
That aside, I fall into the "absolute Paladin rigidness should have been phased out by now" camp. RAW you are right about a "Lawful Evil" deity having Paladins. I'm not disputing that, I just think that RAW is a sacred cow that deserves to be butchered. If you feel otherwise, then there's really nothing more to say; it's a pretty dividing issue and we just won't see eye to eye on it.
I find it funny you keep referring to me as non-human when all I've said has been said as a human misanthrope.
But hey, now the Clerics of Zarus are even more humorous. They also resort to using the "No real Scotsman" fallacy when debating!
"Wait, you're a human and you think our species sucks? That's absurd. You can't be real! You're just an elf in disguise, aren't you? Hah, I knew it!"
Sorry bro, can't see race over the internet. That said, Zarus respects free will. You're free to choose to be wrong and face the consequences. He's just a merciful guy like that.
Zarus ain't even mad. He's just disappointed.
I think he'll be mad when I start burning his temples down.
Good luck with that. Paladins of Zarus are the mightiest of Paladins.
If you want to argue RAW with that statement, I see them as high level tricked out Barbarians with all of their favored class bonuses placed to buff Superstition (which they refer to as "Human Pride").
I thought the OP was asking for help on finding a god for his paladin, not a pissing contest between a misanthrope and troll?
Take the fight elsewhere. It ain't helping the topic at hand.
I thought the OP was asking for help on finding a god for his paladin, not a pissing contest between a misanthrope and troll?
Take the fight elsewhere. It ain't helping the topic at hand.
I personally disagree. I think Zarus is the way to go if you want god of humanity and I'm arguing my points for the TC to consider.
Good luck with that. Paladins of Zarus are the mightiest of Paladins.
If you want to argue RAW with that statement, I see them as high level tricked out Barbarians with all of their favored class bonuses placed to buff Superstition (which they refer to as "Human Pride").
I am all for removing alignment restrictions from classes, but I'd rename Paladin to Templar or something similar.
Paladin still carries the association to Lawful Good in my mind, but having an "(Un)holy Knight" of Zarus does not bother me.
So if they were Barbarians and Superstition was Human Pride, what is the name of their Rage then? Frustration? Arrogance? Hubris?
I thought the OP was asking for help on finding a god for his paladin, not a pissing contest between a misanthrope and troll?
Take the fight elsewhere. It ain't helping the topic at hand.
I'm having fun here, and I don't see this little debate really harming the thread.
If anything, I'm only making it clear why Abadar would work better than Zarus for his character.
At least Abadar takes other races into consideration, thus having a better picture of functioning society than Zarus does.
Constant war against non-humans (Zarus approves) is bad for trade and for economy in general, and thus bad for civilized human lands.
I am all for removing alignment restrictions from classes, but I'd rename Paladin to Templar or something similar.
Paladin still carries the association to Lawful Good in my mind, but having an "(Un)holy Knight" of Zarus does not bother me.
So if they were Barbarians and Superstition was Human Pride, what is the name of their Rage then? Frustration? Arrogance? Hubris?
As far as Paladin, I can see your point in renaming it to get rid of the association with LG. I'm a fan of Codes of Conduct being tailored to the individual god; with that concept in mind there's no real reason to have the alignment restriction.
In regards to the Barbarians, I'd go with Hubris personally. One of these days I'm going to make a character like that and roleplay it exactly like this topic.
Also you mentioned Zarus wanting constant war with other races; this isn't necessarily true. Non-humans (barring half-elves/orcs, but personally I could see your guy being a softie and thinking "hey at least they're half good") aren't a problem unless they try to be all superior... which yeah happens a lot with elves.
I hope someone punches your character in the face...
...till he dies.
Actually, I'll have to make a misanthropic human character now.
I hope someone punches your character in the face...
...till he dies.
Good luck, I'll probably take Dragon Totem line and Invulnerable Rager for like 30 DR.
"Quests: Zarus sends his followers to destroy enclaves of other races, kill their heroes and leaders, and steal their artifacts. He encourages human armies to conquer nonhuman lands and subjugate their people."
No justification needed, apparently. That kind of subjugation costs money, you know.
And oh, I wouldn't go tempting fate like that. Unless your DM is also an advocate for human supremacy, I think he can find ways to kill your character as good as any other.
That kind of subjugation also brings in tons of money through conquest. That's how Rome did it. I could see a nation of Zarus being exactly like Rome now that I think about it, brutality and 100% conviction that its all yours by right included.
And what happened to Rome, in the end?
Zarus is not an Overdeity. He and his followers can lose.
And what happened to Rome, in the end?
Zarus is not an Overdeity. He and his followers can lose.
I really don't think that we can consider Rome's streak bad by any standard. But hey, empires may fall, but Zarus and humanity lives on.
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I thought the OP was asking for help on finding a god for his paladin, not a pissing contest between a misanthrope and troll?
Take the fight elsewhere. It ain't helping the topic at hand.
Hey, it's fun to watch Icy call out humans in real life as "usually evil" while at the same time fighting the "usually evil" trope of orcs and whatanot.
What can I say? After seeing enough real life evil by humanity (I could name examples but we'd be here all day if I did that), I'd rather not fool myself into thinking they'd be any better when being forced to share a world with races designated as being of a "Usually Good" alignment such as elves or dwarves. As for orcs, they were "Often Chaotic Evil" in 3rd edition (less than "Usually Chaotic Evil"), and that is the perception I stand by. Lastly, usually is not synonymous to always.
Hey, it's fun to watch Icy call out humans in real life as "usually evil" while at the same time fighting the "usually evil" trope of orcs and whatanot.
A bit off topic, but I always thought of the "X race is this alignment" in games as a subconscious wish of the creators that racism was 100% justified in the real world. Or I could be looking too far into it.
Is it racist when I hate every human being equally to a certain degree?
Well it does make you racist against humans.
No just obnoxious.
God, to think, I used to be just like that when I was younger...
You used to enjoy playfully sparring on the internet? I'm sorry you lost that pleasure.
You used to enjoy playfully sparring on the internet? I'm sorry you lost that pleasure.
Was directed at Icy, not you sorry. Shoulda quoted.
No, just obnoxious.
God, to think, I used to be just like that when I was younger...
I used to think everyone was nice and truly good deep down when I was younger.
People like you are what I find obnoxious. What, am I not allowed to have a differing opinion?
You're free to give our kind praise, so long as I'm free to have a degree of disdain towards our kind.
No, just obnoxious.
God, to think, I used to be just like that when I was younger...
I used to think everyone was nice and truly good deep down when I was younger.
People like you are what I find obnoxious. What, am I not allowed to have a differing opinion?
You're free to give our kind praise, so long as I'm free to have a degree of disdain towards our kind.
Oh you are totally allowed to have that opinion, no matter how close-minded and adolescent it may be. But derailing a thread that has nothing to do with your hatred of humans is the issue.
And I guess it's also a matter of me seeing how I used to be and striking a nerve. Just seeing how sad I was back then in another poster can be sobering.
I only hate humanity when I see people praising our kind, though.
Am I really even a misanthrope in that case? I can't help but wonder...
"My hate is general, I detest all men;
Some because they are wicked and do evil,
Others because they tolerate the wicked,
Refusing them the active vigorous scorn
Which vice should stimulate in virtuous minds"
- The Misanthrope, by Jean-Baptiste Poquelin.
I'd say this quote sums that topic up quite nicely, at least on my part.
I really don't think that we can consider Rome's streak bad by any standard. But hey, empires may fall, but Zarus and humanity lives on.And what happened to Rome, in the end?
Zarus is not an Overdeity. He and his followers can lose.
Rome's streak was mostly due to its large population. When you look at a large number of Rome's wars, the truly impressive fact is that they tended to get the crap beat out of them and only won because they could constantly raise armies to throw at their enemies until the problem went away.
The OP should go with Abadar.
I actually appreciate the banter on the topic- Abadar was my first round pick, but Zarus is intriguing... Imagine a "paladin" who believes he is doing "good" but is actually an evil butcher misled by the humanocentric, xenophobic church he was raised in? Seeing the evil he has wrought in his "righteous" crusade, he turns from the faith and seeks another (Ragathiel is my hot pick for this one). Thanks for all the input!
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Look up Zarus if you don't mind non-Golarion specific. He's technically Lawful Evil, but that's just other races being jealous; he's more LN to humans. I could definitely see him having Paladins
That's an odd way to spell Pelor.
St.Cuthbert of the good ole Greyhawk setting would fit a lot of the OP bill.
LG/LN clergy,advocating combat and persecution of "Evil" foes whenever and where ever..and his symbol is a Cudgel.
Seems like a nice guy until you do something that rubs him the wrong way..then its cudgeling time!
Would be easy to make it a religion of crusades, and witch hunts..wait it already is ! :)