Who here has made the Antipaladin work as a PC?

[Ellis Mirari]

I just can't see it. I want to, but I can't.

Even if I apply a more reigned-in house rules regarding the antipaladin's code of conduct like I've done with the paladin, roleplaying restrictions aside, I feel placing an antipaladin in a PC means either every PC HAS to be a dastardly villain (because who else will think it's okay to kill good aligned people) or the antipaladin player has to completely ignore the Smite Good ability, a big portion of the class.

I remember a lot of posts where people mention having antipaladins in their parties. Are these all-evil campaigns? Do you somehow manage to make it work in a party of mixed alignments? Evil characters teaming up with good characters temporarily is something I can get my head around, but non-Evil characters teaming up with an antipaladin for ANY amount of time seems like a stretch to me as the class is written.

[The Crusader]

I played a knight of the sepulcher. We started at level 3 and he was dead by 7, so it wasn't a long drawn-out situation. Mostly, I really focused on causing chaos, and didn't really focus on evil (unless you count an absolute focus on collecting armies of undead!).

[kikidmonkey]

It's simple, antipaladins dont walk around with huge billboards that say "HEY GUYS! I LIKE TO EAT PUPPIES! DO YOU AS WELL? JOIN THE ANTIPALADINS TODAY!"

If you are good at it, no one should ever know who or what you really are.

That is, until maximum pain and torment can be achieved.

[Luthorne]

I've played an antipaladin in a game based off of the old Dungeon Keeper games, a half-fiend elven antipaladin of Calistria. Not everyone in the party is evil, but the majority are, so the neutrals mostly have to just get with the evil program, and it's not a biggie. That said, honestly, in my experience, even if you are playing an evil game, you probably won't get as much use out of smite evil as you would out of smite good in a normal game. Most of the enemies a good-aligned party will be fighting are evil, but the enemies an evil-aligned party will be running up against are just as likely to be other evil people with conflicting agendas...after all, if you need that eldritch tome of ultimate evil, that evil wizard isn't going to want to share it with you unless you've got a very compelling offer that he thinks he can't just reap the benefits of without having to hand it over...and unless you don't think you can take him or handle the consequences, why would you? You're evil! Smite evil is just not as valuable for an antipaladin as it is for a paladin, which is why it's a good thing the antipaladin is packing fun with cruelties to help make up for it.

That said, antipaladins do have a lot of leeway in their code. You're allowed to do things that seem good so long as those actions are benefiting your goal, you can avoid having to do evil if doing so would interfere with your goal, though you should avoid playing this card too much. A lot depends on who you're playing with and who the DM is. An antipaladin can be quite disruptive, so you can OOCly talk with the other players and the DM about your character's goals, motivations, and so on and so forth, and see if they're okay with it. Much like playing a necromancer, it's not something that works for every game, and if people don't want to put up with that, they're well within their rights to ask you come up with another character concept. With the right group where stabbing each other in the back is more acceptable, you might just not tell them and conceal your true nature and spend a lot of time plotting out how your character will ruin things for everyone else, much as some players who are necromancers but hide their activities from everyone but the DM...I personally think this is kind of a terrible thing to do, but some people apparently have groups where that sort of thing is relatively normal, based on some of the stories I've heard.

Which basically leads into the major thing...just what is your goal? Check out the antipaladin codes in Faiths of Corruption if you plan to follow one of those deities, or make up your own using that as inspiration. Consider just what kind of antipaladin you are. Subtlety is generally a must for non-evil games, so really try to think about what the goals your character is shooting for that lets them want to work together with these weak fools who don't understand the truth of reality...or however your antipaladin views them. Like I said, talk with the DM, see how much of the situation or setting they're willing to talk with you about, maybe you can find something to set as your character's goal, whether it's assassinating a prominent figure, taking over the country, desecrating a famous holy place, stealing a famous dark artifact the villain possesses, or even taking out a rival evil so you can instill the worship of whatever dark or chaotic god you serve in its place. You don't have to be stupid, either, if your character knows that he can't accomplish the goal as they are now, they can work towards either building up trust to get people to let their guard down or to access a place you want, forging alliances (however transient) with others to help you take down someone stronger than you, etc., etc., etc.

Also put some time into considering your antipaladin's philosophy. Unlike some chaotic evil characters, an antipaladin is dedicated to chaos and evil. Why? My Calistrian antipaladin believes, for example, that good and law are lies propagated by to deceive and enslave blind fools. Law would have you believe in social constructs that only exist in people's heads, give up your own revenge for some sort of blind faith that society will take that revenge for you in the trappings of 'justice', that such a system is worth you being chained to it. A system that tells you to close your eyes to the fact that societies are made of individuals, who all could have the power to make their own decisions if they weren't mired in a web of tradition and social expectations that seeks to grind out your awareness of reality. Good would have you believe that you should labor for others, deluding you into feeling a sense of egotistical fulfillment that you have helped or saved someone, when you could be pursuing your own goals for the only person that really matters. You will never be them, you will only be yourself...throw off the chains that would seek you kept scurrying about like an ant, reacting mindlessly to the distress of others in the hive, and learn to know yourself and your own desires, and follow those, not those of others. Of course, my antipaladin is half demon, so they have a pretty warped perspective based on their own instincts...

I've said it before, I'll say it again: an antipaladin is very much a disruptive character in most cases that is not always appropriate for every game. With creativity and the right DM...as well as the right fellow players...it can be made to work in a non-evil game, but it's often tricky and hard. Whether you think it's worth the effort or not, I can't say.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Chaotic Evil is a tough alignment to hang out with. Even the Way of Wicked, an expressly evil adventure path, does not allow CE (or CN for that matter) PCs as written. The Antipaladin code in particular can make it difficult to even pretend to not be evil, which makes him a hard sell for all but the darkest of groups.

[Peter Stewart]

I'm playing a LE (Way of the Wicked) Antipaladin with big sociopathic traits. Level 4 now and no problems, despite the fact that he thinks the rest of the party is a bunch of Belial worshiping nuts.

[DungeonmasterCal]

Back in the long ago days of 1e, the first character I rolled up was an antipaladin. Played him for years.

[Deadmanwalking]

I played in a game with an Antipaladin (slightly modified to be LE...but there were CE characters in that game, so it'd probably have been fine that way, too). Worked great, wonderfully fun game, most united party I've ever seen. Of course, we were all Evil. Very Evil. Commit genocide and/or torture people to death for fun kinda Evil (well, one PC was a LN Hobgoblin assigned to work with the rest of us...).

So, I've basically gotta agree with the OP...an Antipaladin in a Good group is gonna have trouble. Concealing himself probably won't be that hard (Undetectable Alignment is an Antipaladin spell, after all)...but as mentioned he'll lose out on Smite Good, and even with a Conductive weapon to channel his Touch of Corruption into messing people up, he's just not gonna be as effective as a Barbarian or even Fighter vs. anything non-Good. It's theoretically viable from a role playing perspective but troublesome mechanically, and potentially very very bad for party cohesion.

[zero_enna]

Currently playing a LE Dhampir Antipaladin of Asmodeous using the Lord of Darkness Archetype (3rd Party, very well written). Currently at 7th level in an all evil party. No CE in the group, which helps alot. Character is a blast to play. You are going to have to accept that you wont get to use Smite Good anywhere near as much as a normal Paladin gets to use Smite Evil, but it isnt really as neccessary since you have a version of lay on hands that hurts licing creatures (and heals you in the case of my character per my DM's ruling since Dhampir are considered to be undead for healing and it heals undead). Totally going to become a tyrant eventually, but he is going to maneuver his way there politically, since the purest form of tyranny is when the oppressed dont realize their oppression. We already control a growing city, have raised a small standing military and are well on our ways to becoming a respected power in the world. All in all a fun class to play, but it can be a little difficult.

[Mojorat]

The problem with playing an Antipaladin i found was the inability to ignore when your companions are not evil enough. what i mean really is in any group somone has to be leader, if it isnt the AP then it is somone else. If im just playing a CE fighter and the guy playing the groups leader is wishywashy or not evil motivat3d enough as a player i can ignore it to avoid player conflict. If im playing an AP i cant really do that.

Basically, the AP needs to be in charge or have somone he is scared of in charge. Otherwise that person if they are not actively promoting team evil is dead. This isnt to say the AP cant avoid conflict for the greater goal of team evil but they cant really follow wishy washy or unassertive leaders.

A game where the AP character was written as the main anti-hero and everone understood this would likely work fine.

[Rob Godfrey]

Ellis Mirari wrote:

I just can't see it. I want to, but I can't.

Even if I apply a more reigned-in house rules regarding the antipaladin's code of conduct like I've done with the paladin, roleplaying restrictions aside, I feel placing an antipaladin in a PC means either every PC HAS to be a dastardly villain (because who else will think it's okay to kill good aligned people) or the antipaladin player has to completely ignore the Smite Good ability, a big portion of the class.

I remember a lot of posts where people mention having antipaladins in their parties. Are these all-evil campaigns? Do you somehow manage to make it work in a party of mixed alignments? Evil characters teaming up with good characters temporarily is something I can get my head around, but non-Evil characters teaming up with an antipaladin for ANY amount of time seems like a stretch to me as the class is written.

We have an anti-paladin in our game (~played by me). We use the 'same alignment as deity' house rule for both paladins and anti-paladins, so he ended up LE, worshipping Asmodeus. The setting is apocalyptic, so we have bigger things to keep the party together, what with the Demonic invasion and everything. Yea, it means I don't get to smite good , but I really enjoy the character and have wanted to play one on a table top for years, also given the nature of his Lord (being all about deals and contracts) the party makes deals with me, being very careful about how they phrase things :p

[Gilfalas]

I played an Anti Paladin once who's deity wanted to be the sole evil deity in a home brew setting. So he assisted good (really any) parties in attacking and killing evil powers in an effort to weaken and/or remove other evil deities from the world and to build his and his own gods power. While he never really hid that he was evil he never really publicized he was an anti paladin and worked smart. The great thing about lawful and good societies is using their own legal framework and codes of honor against them.

He was by no means a nice guy and did stuff in secret that if the party had ever found out about they would have killed him themselves. But it made for interesting and tense RP in a lot of situations. He would try to get the group to do things 'his way' with logical arguments that they would have a hard time refuting (thus trying to make them turn evil). I eventually swayed the Chaotic Good ranger to my way of thinking and he became neutral evil.

We even had an NPC Paladin for one adventure travel with the group. We were both focused on the same goal (eliminating a cult to the god of disease and poisons) but the Paladin left as soon as the adventure was over.

I never gave the Paladin a valid reason to try to kill me while he was around but he said he would be on the watch for me in the future.

But that was a purposely contrived character to fit into the party of mostly chaotic goods and neutrals. It never would have worked with a Paladin or lawful/good cleric in the group IMO.

Ellis Mirari wrote:

...either every PC HAS to be a dastardly villain (because who else will think it's okay to kill good aligned people) or the antipaladin player has to completely ignore the Smite Good ability, a big portion of the class....

What do you think happens when two good countries go to war against each other? Good aligned people would have to kill other good aligned people.

That said, my ability to smite good WAS almost never usable in that game. Plus not being able to use a Holy/Good Aligned weapon was at time a P.I.T.A.

[archmagi1]

I had a mythic AP Graveknight that nearly 1-shotted a mythic, defense oriented guardian/marshal Pal in my game (did about 97 damage in 1 round), CR9 foe, IIRC. Mechanically seemed to function just fine for the four rounds he survived.

[DrDeth]

I had one, but he failed to kick a puppy once and my DM ruled he then "rose' and became a Paladin. Luckily the next day he slept in, thus committing the sin of Sloth, and fell. However, he then overtipped the waitress, so "rose' again. But then he didn't say 'excuse me" after burping, so fell.

[Supreme]

Playing an Antipaladin in a group is actually easier then you expect, as their code says they can be in a good party as long it benefits them in some way.

Loot is an easy way to have them in a group.

I ignored Smite Good and just pumped up my summons instead. If you get him to level 11 or so with Augment Summoning, you get a Shadow Demon with +4 STR / +4 CON. And you can concentrate on being defensive.

It depends on the campaign and the party though. As long as you're selfish it's easy to have them be in a group. Even if you do have to rescue kids from a burning orphanage, you're doing it to get in good graces with the townsfolk so you can get something out of them.