I've wondered the same thing once or twice. I keep coming to the conclusion that even though it doesn't say "check" it still effects the check if the player attempting the check has determined they are using their strength die.
So basically, I don't think a card has to use the word "check" to effect the check.
I think the idea behind the rule is that you can't run into a monster see that it is going to be really hard for you to defeat it, and then think, "I better get some cards out of my hand now so that I can't take them as damage." Thus you can't play cure, because you might lose cure to damage. You can't play scrying to look at another location, because you might loose scrying to damage. So its not so much to make those cards less powerful, as much as it is to say "Even if you regret exploring, its too late to change things now."
*shrug* You can still only play 1 spell per check, right? So even if you can cast Cure it's not like you could play 4 spells as Kyra and recharge all of your cards that way. And even if you could, who cares? You're not beating the monster if you just recharged all of your cards so you basically just accomplished nothing. Plenty of monsters at this point also have secondary effects if undefeated, as well.
I'd be perfectly fine with that rule being removed in fact the more I think about it, I'd be all for it.
Non-hypothetical version. Seoni the Abyssal Sorcerer can banish an ally to draw three cards. Can she use this in an encounter to draw a spell that can be used on the check?
Seoni: 'Should I feed my ally to a demon or just set him on fire?'
So, technically the rule is this:
Encountering a Card...During each of these steps, you and the other players may perform only the specified actions. Players may only play cards or activate powers that relate to each step.
So things like Seoni's power to draw a card and Cure don't relate to any of the steps of the encounter, because they aren't about doing anything in any of those steps, whether its evading or attempting a check or anything else in the encounter. Trying to manipulate your hand isn't related to any of the steps. It might be about strategy, but it isn't related to any of the steps.
The question about the Strength spell was, did it fit in "Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect the Check". And if the check is using strength, then yeah, it is a card that affects that particular check.
Here's a thought. Can you play Strength immediately when a bane is encountered?
We already know that when you encounter a bane, there is an opportunity to play spells like Toxic Cloud and Incendiary Cloud, because those cards specifically state to play them at that point in time.
The spell Strength does not specify a certain time when it must be played, so wouldn't it be fair to assume you can play it in the same window of opportunity where you would play Toxic/Incendiary Cloud?
If the answer is yes, the upshot is that you could cast Strength immediately when you encounter a bane, and then cast a spell like Aid or Guidance during the check. This would NOT violate this rule:
Encountering a Card: Each player may play no more than 1 card of each type during each step; for example, no one player may play more than 1 blessing while attempting a check, though multiple players could each play 1 blessing during that check.
That's because Strength and Aid would NOT be played during the same step.
You cannot play cards when you encounter something unless the card instructs you to play it at that time.
Can you point to a particular statement in the rulebook that supports that, please? I've looked, and I don't see anything that explicitly states anything like that.
Ok, looking a bit more closely, the closest thing I can find is this:
Encountering a Card: Players may only play cards or activate powers that relate to each step.
The thing is, the point in time at which "when you encounter" effects trigger is not an explicit step in the encounter sequence. As such, I would argue that the above rule doesn't apply to the case I've described.
If anything, this makes another reason why there should be an explicit step before "Evade (Optional)" called something like "Apply When Encountered Effects". The other, more obvious, reason to do that would to clear up a lot of confusion regarding whether these effects trigger when you evade a card.
Ok, but that still doesn't address the issue of whether or not I can play Strength immediately when I encounter a card. I get that it probably is not the intent to be able to play Strength then, but I don't see anything in the rulebook that specifically prevents me from doing this.
The problem really is that the Cloud cards are adding a timing that's not anywhere else in the rules. It probably would have been better to make them work something like - "Play this card during a check to defeat a monster, for the rest of the turn add X to any combat check. Another spell may be played on this check."
Instead, as QuantumNinja points out, this new window opens the question of what else can be played here, since the rules don't address it at all. My guess would be that other spells can't unless specified, but why create that ambiguity?
Ok, but that still doesn't address the issue of whether or not I can play Strength immediately when I encounter a card. I get that it probably is not the intent to be able to play Strength then, but I don't see anything in the rulebook that specifically prevents me from doing this.
Basically, you need to cast the Strength spell before you start exploring. It shouldn't be a big issue because you can get cards that scan ahead in the deck plus you get to see the location information. You just need to see what the odds of encountering something that needs strength. I would say most of the time the odds are in your favor.
Ok. So two things here.
First, I'd still say you can play the Strength spell as part of attempting the check if (and only if) you are using your strength skill for the check. I think it fits under "play cards and use powers that affect the check." I think it is worded the way it is to grant you some flexibility. You can play it before you explore, or you can hold on to it and wait for when you are attempting a check with your strength. The advantage to simply playing it before exploring is that you can play another spell for the check being attempted (i.e. Strength before exploring and Fiery Weapon during the check). If you hold it until someone is attempting a check, then it is going to be the only spell you can play.
I could be wrong there, but that is how I've been playing it and it makes sense to me that way.
Second...
You cannot play cards when you encounter something unless the card instructs you to play it at that time.
I think (though forgive me if I'm wrong) that what csouth was saying is that the rules say that from the moment you encounter a card you a locked into the "Encountering a Card" sequence. And it is explicit that you go through those steps in a particular order and that you can only play cards and powers that relate to each step.
When you encounter a card, you—and only you—can go through the following steps. No one else can perform these steps for you, though other players might be able to play cards to help you deal with the encounter’s challenges. During each of these steps, you and the other players may perform only the specified actions. Players may only play cards or activate powers that relate to each step. Each player may play no more than 1 card of each type during each step; for example, no one player may play more than 1 blessing while attempting a check, though multiple players could each play 1 blessing during that check. Each player may activate any power no more than once during each step. Players may not play any cards or activate any powers between these steps.
But (and this is still what I think csouth was saying, and I agree with this too), the Golden Rule says cards are correct when they conflict with the Rulebook. And the Cloud spells say to play them when you encounter the card. That isn't part of the order. But it doesn't matter, because the card says you can do it.
Rules: The Golden Rule If a card and this rulebook are ever in conflict, the card should be considered correct. If cards conflict with one another, then Adventure Path cards overrule adventures, adventures overrule scenarios, scenarios overrule locations, locations overrule characters, and characters overrule other card types.
If a card said, "Between attempting the check and attempting the next check, recharge this card to draw 3 cards," that would seem to violate the rules in the Encountering a Card sequence because it is playing a card between the steps. But it would be allowed because the cards are allowed to break the rules in the rulebook.
csouth: if I'm wrong about understanding what you said, I'm sorry.
Yes, I'm with you on Strength being able to be played during the check. I would hope so, to be honest, as I disagree that it would still be a very good spell if it had to be played before you flip the card (even allowing for the existence of cards that let you look ahead and the occasional non-combat Strength roll).
Also, (just catching up on this thread), the rule on card limits is 1 card of each type by each character per step of Encountering a Card, of which Attempt the Check is one of those steps. The rules also specify that each character can only play 1 card of each type when a check is being attempted because sometimes you attempt checks that aren't part of encountering a card (like closing a location, or recharging a spell that wasn't played during an encounter).
So, the reason the rule is in place to say cards have to relate to the steps, is because if it didn't this would be possible:
Kyra has Cure, Scrying, Battleaxe, and Father Zantus in her hand. She explores and its a Werewolf. Uh, oh, the Blessing Discard Pile is a Blessing of the Gods. Kyra knows this werewolf is now a Combat 16 check to defeat. Even discarding her Battleaxe, she is at best going to roll 1d8 + 2d6 + 2. She's only got about a 28% chance to get 16 or better. She doesn't want to lose any of her cards. So she decides to play Scrying during the evade step, Father Zantus during the "Apply any effects that happen Before the Encounter" step and Scrying during the "Attempt the Check" step. Now with them out of her hand and knowing she discarded her Battleaxe by choice, the Werewolf is unable to deal her any damage, but she still has a 28% chance to defeat it.
There are enough steps to Encountering A Card that if you weren't required to only play cards that relate to the specific step, then you could get 3 cards out of your hand just to save them from damage. And if the "no playing cards between the steps" part wasn't there, it would be even worse.
That all helps to make "Choices Matter" so important. If you choose to hold onto those cards and explore, you can't avoid the consequences of your choice.
Also, (just catching up on this thread), the rule on card limits is 1 card of each type by each character per step of Encountering a Card, of which Attempt the Check is one of those steps.
At the very least, I think the rules allow you to play both Toxic Cloud and Incendiary Cloud when you encounter a card. Neither of them is played during a "step" of the encounter, so the rule about one card type per player per step shouldn't apply.
Also, (just catching up on this thread), the rule on card limits is 1 card of each type by each character per step of Encountering a Card, of which Attempt the Check is one of those steps.At the very least, I think the rules allow you to play both Toxic Cloud and Incendiary Cloud when you encounter a card. Neither of them is played during a "step" of the encounter, so the rule about one card type per player per step shouldn't apply.
Actually, Mike answered before that you couldn't do that.
In that thread I had said I thought it was (at least partially) because you have to play them when the encounter starts and once you do something it is no longer the point in time when the encounter starts. But Mike didn't actually verify that reasoning. He just said no single character could play more than 1 of those "in response to an encounter" cards in response to 1 encounter. I'd also tend to carry the 1 card of each type by each player over to these "break the rules" cards as well. But again, that is just me and not something official.
Also, this other post has some details about these kinds of card.
Awesome, thanks for the reply, Hawkmoon. I must have missed those conversations, so thanks for bringing them to my attention.
If nothing else, this serves as even further justification as to why there really should be an explicit step in the encounter sequence to "Apply When Encountered" effects.
Ok. So two things here....Both of those things are correct.
To clarify: Someone Displays a spell before exploring. They encounter a bane. The displayed spell applies to the check. The player can still play another spell during that check (because the 1st one was played during another step).
So is Sphere of Fire (Wizard class deck) an exception? The FAQ states that using its power counts as "playing" it, even if it was Displayed before the check, so another spell cannot be used.
If I make a combat check using Sphere of Fire, can I play another spell? If I don't have the Arcane or Divine skill, can I discard Sphere of Fire for its additional damage and thus avoid having to banish the card?
No and no. Using the power of Sphere of Fire counts as a spell. And if you discard the spell, it triggers the last part of the power.
Resolution: On the spell Sphere of Fire, replace "At the end of your turn, if you do not have either the Arcane or Divine skill..." with "This counts as playing a spell. At the end of your turn, or when you would discard this card when playing it, if you do not have either the Arcane or Divine skill..."
Chief Technical Officer
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To clarify: Someone Displays a spell before exploring. They encounter a bane. The displayed spell applies to the check. The player can still play another spell during that check (because the 1st one was played during another step).
It depends on the card that's displayed. As you point out, activating Sphere of Fire counts as playing a spell because it says so. Cards like Strength or Agility don't have to be activated, though—when you play them, they just have a effect that lasts for a while. And other cards have powers that can be activated while displayed (these usually have powers that begin "While displayed...").
So, basic example:
Seoni encounters a Monster. She wants to play, as her combat check, a Viper Strike. She can't augment that spell with Glibness for a +3, because she already played a spell?
But, if she had played it before her exploration with the thought: "If I encounter a monster now, I can blow it up.", then explores, and then comes across a dreaded monster, then it is allowed?
Right?
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That's right.
Sphere of Fire and Wisdom (which I'm assuming you would equate with Strength & Agility) *both* say "While displayed..." & then list the power/effect, so that wording alone can't be what distinguishes them.
Let me say that the others in my group (& our discussion of this rule) are role-players while I am not. So I am strictly pulling from the S&S rulebook terminology. It seems there is some difference between an "effect" (& I've seen the terminology "triggering an effect") and a "power" which I haven't found.
Check the FAQ on Sphere of Fire. They changed the wording so that using the display power counts as playing a spell on the check.
Check the FAQ on Sphere of Fire. They changed the wording so that using the display power counts as playing a spell on the check.
Yep I quoted it above. ;) The question is whether this applies to any other spells displayed outside of the check and, if so, how to know which ones.
Sorry. I'm really tired. I probably should be asleep right now :p. I would imagine that the difference between a sphere spell and a check boosting spell is that the sphere spells are determining the skill of the combat check. The FAQ prevents someone from playing a spell like Aid on top the sphere spell.
What distinguishes sphere of fire from wisdom is that you must choose to use sphere of fire and activate it. Wisdom is simply on while displayed. See this thread. The choice to activate a displayed card seems to be signified in two ways, either by having you pay a cost (like Rage) or by making a decision (like Sphere of Fire, which gives you an option to use for your combat check).
Thank you. :)
Holy thread necromancy, Batman! This was a walk down memory lane.
Jenceslav is 100% correct. (My apologies for being late in chiming in, I don't visit this forum much anymore.)