getting a grip on monk dipping and the number of attacks with flurry


Rules Questions


Ok so I keep reading about monk dipping and how flurry works and then it hit me ... I have had a multiclass monk/ fighter for a while and as I am about to hit a +6 BAB, I want to get a grip on the number of attacks and bonuses I have.

For simplicity I'm onlyhoin to use base BAB and not include any bonus/penalty from attributes and feats

Monk 1/Fighter 5
BAB = +5 flurry +4/+4

Monk 2/Fighter 6
BAB = +6/+1 flurry +5/+5/+0

Does that look right?


No. Your number of attacks from flurry of blows only goes up when your monk level goes up. Even a fighter19/monk 1 only has a flurry of -1/-1. Your BAB does not modify your flurry penalties or number of attacks. So even if your bab grants you 4 attacks because its 19/14/9/4, your flurry is still just 18/18.

Sczarni

Since you're Multiclassing, use the base Monk Flurry BAB + Other Class BAB to determine your total Flurry BAB.

Look Here for the FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9naz

As a Monk 1 Fighter 5, you actually get 3 attacks. However, since your normal BAB is still at 5, you still can only attack once unless you flurry. Also, very important: you can still gain the interative attacks when your FBAB continues to grow, at the same intervals, but you will NOT gain the extra attack at level 8 Flurry of Blows or level 15 Flurry of Blows, unless your Monk levels are either 8 or 15.

1 for existing. 1 for entry level Flurry. 1 for +6 BAB(Flurry is, anyways). Believe it or not, even though it starts at -1, that still counts towards your iterative attacks that you gain every +6 BAB. So you should be at +4/+4/-1.

If you look closely at the Monk Flurry of BLows chart, notice that it starts at -1/-1, but as soon as you get to +4/+4, it adds an extra attack with your flurry, making it +4/+4/-1. Even though it starts in negative numbers, it still increased 6 steps.

The reason the chart starts at -1, is because FLurry is essentially TWF with Light Weapons(even though Monks have more options than that to flurry with). TWF with Light Weapons means only a -2 attack loss. If you count up the total points of Flurry, it does increase 20 steps, or 1 per level. Flurry is just a modified and pre-calculated version of TWF, with a few restrictions.

The only real downside to Flurry is you cannot combine Natural Attacks with it or any TWF feats :T

Sczarni

Made like 30 edits, sorry about that Lol. That should be the last revision.


It took me a long time, but I finally figured it out. Your monk level counts as your BAB for the monk class plus whatever BAB you have from other classes. Once your first attack gets to +6, you get an additional flurry at -1. If I am understanding correctly, your flurry won't go beyond three if you don't make it to Monk 8, but I could be wrong.

Sczarni

CKorfmann wrote:
It took me a long time, but I finally figured it out. Your monk level counts as your BAB for the monk class plus whatever BAB you have from other classes. Once your first attack gets to +6, you get an additional flurry at -1. If I am understanding correctly, your flurry won't go beyond three if you don't make it to Monk 8, but I could be wrong.

It will go beyond 3, to a maximum of 5 unless they take their monk levels up to 8 and/or 15. Every 6 steps in FBAB means one extra attack.


gourry187 wrote:

Ok so I keep reading about monk dipping and how flurry works and then it hit me ... I have had a multiclass monk/ fighter for a while and as I am about to hit a +6 BAB, I want to get a grip on the number of attacks and bonuses I have.

For simplicity I'm onlyhoin to use base BAB and not include any bonus/penalty from attributes and feats

Monk 1/Fighter 5
BAB = +5 flurry +4/+4

Monk 2/Fighter 6
BAB = +6/+1 flurry +5/+5/+0

Does that look right?

You left on the BAB for your second level of monk.

Monk 2 (BAB +1)/Fighter 6 (BAB +6)
BAB = +7/+2

Flurry (Monk BAB treated as +2)
BAB = +6/+6/+1


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
CKorfmann wrote:
It took me a long time, but I finally figured it out. Your monk level counts as your BAB for the monk class plus whatever BAB you have from other classes. Once your first attack gets to +6, you get an additional flurry at -1. If I am understanding correctly, your flurry won't go beyond three if you don't make it to Monk 8, but I could be wrong.
It will go beyond 3, to a maximum of 5 unless they take their monk levels up to 8 and/or 15. Every 6 steps in FBAB means one extra attack.

Of course, it's an extra attack. Makes sense... thanks for connecting the last dot for me.


Does anyone have supporting rules to support flurring getting the added iterative from high bab? I've never seen this done this way. I've always understood flurry to only grant you a number of attacks equal to what the class chart dictates. So a monk 1 dip only benefits from flurry until the character achieves 3rd bab attack, at which point it becomes obsolete.

Sczarni

Look at the chart, it shows it right there. Between that and the FAQ I linked, it should make sense to you.

If you notice, at level 1, they get two identical attacks. One for existing, one for entry level Flurry. They both start at -1, much like a fighter using TWF and Light Weapons would(a -2 to their main hand and offhand, but since this is flurry, there is no offhand - this is pre-calculated into FBAB). However, once the FBAB reaches +4(at level 6), it has officially moved up 6 steps, and as you can see, gains an extra attack at -1. Just like a fighter would.

How else would you explain this if they don't get another Bonus attack from Flurry itself until level 8?


Shimesen wrote:
Does anyone have supporting rules to support flurring getting the added iterative from high bab? I've never seen this done this way. I've always understood flurry to only grant you a number of attacks equal to what the class chart dictates. So a monk 1 dip only benefits from flurry until the character achieves 3rd bab attack, at which point it becomes obsolete.

I don't see how you could read it that way. Flurry of blows lets you make an extra attack while taking a -2 penalty just like two-weapon fighting. link You add your BAB bonus from different classes when you multiclass. Barring some specific objection, there is no reason you wouldn't keep the extra attack.

Sczarni

What throws most people off, is that FBAB starts at -1/-1... which is weird for a Full BAB right? I thought that starts off at 1??

It does start off at 1. If you look at the chart for TWF with Light Weapons, it's a -2 bonus.. thus dropping Flurry to -1/-1 - much like a fighter using the same setup would be at level 1.

read it enough times and itll make sense :)


So that same character at Monk 2/Fighter 18 would have a BAB of +19/14/9/4 and would flurry at +18/18/13/8/3/-1, right?


A second level monk would only get one extra attack with flurry.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
A second level monk would only get one extra attack with flurry.

He only has one extra (+18). At Monk 6 with a BAB +4 his flurry shows on the chart as +4/4/-1. He is treated as if he has Two-Weapon Fighting.


CKorfmann wrote:
So that same character at Monk 2/Fighter 18 would have a BAB of +19/14/9/4 and would flurry at +18/18/13/8/3/-1, right?

I'm counting two.

Your flurry BAB would be +18/+18/+13/+8/+3. Your four attacks from high BAB plus one extra attack from flurry for a total of five attacks, not the six you have listed.


The problem I'm seeing (and in turn why I've always seen it the way I do) is that flurry is its own special full round action, not a normal full attack action. Because of this, it doesn't benefit from your extra attack made with a FAA. Full attack actions can't be combined with each other. You can't flurry of blows with spell combat for example. You also can not flurry of blows with a full attack action, because they are two sperate actions.


Click my previous link. Flurry is a full attack.


Flurry works exactly like the TWF chain (one extra attack at 1st level, 2 at 8th, and 3 at 15th, and all attacks take a -2 penalty), except that you count the monk level as BAB instead of the monk's actual BAB.

the rules wrote:

Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action.

When doing so, he may make one additional attack, taking a –2 penalty on all of his attack rolls, as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat…

For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus from his monk class levels is equal to his monk level…

At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting … At 15th level, the monk can make three additional attacks using flurry of blows, as if using Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

The final column of the monk table is just the results of the above with the math done for you. The table does not add any further rules beyond what the text of the ability says. It does not invalidate how iterative attacks work. If your BAB when flurrying is 16 or higher, then you have four iterative attacks, plus one, two, or three extra from the flurry, depending on what level of monk you are. This is true for a sixteenth level monk, and it's true for a fifteenth level fighter with a one level monk dip.


Flurry states "as a full attack" and not "while making a full attack" which indicates that it is not in fact a normal full attack and thus should be treated as a seperate action.

I see what you guys are saying, and I'm glad to know that this is the general RAI, but I've never seen any ruling stating that flurry is NOT its own FAA.

If you guys are correct, then by all rights there is nothing stopping someone from combining flurry with spell combat because the added attack from flurry would still be an attack "you could normally make with a full attack" as spell combat states. But everything I've seen on other threads says otherwise.


Shimesen wrote:

Flurry states "as a full attack" and not "while making a full attack" which indicates that it is not in fact a normal full attack and thus should be treated as a seperate action.

I see what you guys are saying, and I'm glad to know that this is the general RAI, but I've never seen any ruling stating that flurry is NOT its own FAA.

If you guys are correct, then by all rights there is nothing stopping someone from combining flurry with spell combat because the added attack from flurry would still be an attack "you could normally make with a full attack" as spell combat states. But everything I've seen on other threads says otherwise.

Take a look at the table. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) I see where you are coming from, but your conclusion would invalidate the table. I think you're reading too much into the RAW. I doesn't invalidate the normal attack progression.

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
CKorfmann wrote:
So that same character at Monk 2/Fighter 18 would have a BAB of +19/14/9/4 and would flurry at +18/18/13/8/3/-1, right?

I'm counting two.

Your flurry BAB would be +18/+18/+13/+8/+3. Your four attacks from high BAB plus one extra attack from flurry for a total of five attacks, not the six you have listed.

You're right. He would get the extra -1 attack the next time he gained +1 to his BAB though.


CKorfmann wrote:
Shimesen wrote:

Flurry states "as a full attack" and not "while making a full attack" which indicates that it is not in fact a normal full attack and thus should be treated as a seperate action.

I see what you guys are saying, and I'm glad to know that this is the general RAI, but I've never seen any ruling stating that flurry is NOT its own FAA.

If you guys are correct, then by all rights there is nothing stopping someone from combining flurry with spell combat because the added attack from flurry would still be an attack "you could normally make with a full attack" as spell combat states. But everything I've seen on other threads says otherwise.

Take a look at the table. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) I see where you are coming from, but your conclusion would invalidate the table. I think you're reading too much into the RAW. I doesn't invalidate the normal attack progression.

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
CKorfmann wrote:
So that same character at Monk 2/Fighter 18 would have a BAB of +19/14/9/4 and would flurry at +18/18/13/8/3/-1, right?

I'm counting two.

Your flurry BAB would be +18/+18/+13/+8/+3. Your four attacks from high BAB plus one extra attack from flurry for a total of five attacks, not the six you have listed.
You're right. He would get the extra -1 attack the next time he gained +1 to his BAB though.

Unless Pathfinder has changed it, you don't get a fifth attack from BAB.


My conclusion doesn't invalidate the table because the table is only accurate if you never have levels in another class.

Flurry is its own special full attack action and cannot be combined with a normal full attack action, AFAIK. So the progression of added attacks from flurry do not get added into a normal full attack, and the same goes for the other way around. Unless I'm missing something.


Shimesen wrote:

My conclusion doesn't invalidate the table because the table is only accurate if you never have levels in another class.

Flurry is its own special full attack action and cannot be combined with a normal full attack action, AFAIK. So the progression of added attacks from flurry do not get added into a normal full attack, and the same goes for the other way around. Unless I'm missing something.

It says "one ADDITIONAL attack" as if using Two-Weapon Fighting.

That's not ambiguous.

If you have 4 attacks, one additional attack makes that 5.


Hmm...I see your point rynjin. I never saw it as being that simple I guess...I guess I just tend to overanalize.


Not a problem. Happens to everybody sometimes. =)


But this still doesn't solve the problem of the flurry and spell combat. If you are using spell combat and making all of your attacks with the same weapon, why doesn't flurry count as one of those attacks? If your allowed 3 attacks with main hand (from bab) and one additional from flurry (also with that same hand), you arnt breaking any rules for spell combat.

Then again, I see the issue - the added attack from flurry is the same attack you are replacing with a spell.

I'm an idiot....its been a long day...

[Edit] but in the case of my character (a Kasatha) wouldn't I still be able to make my other two attacks (for my other two off-hands that I can now make using my main hand because im a monk)? I know this is really just a GM ruling at this point, but I'm curious. FYI I'm using mwf.


Spell Combat And Flurry don't really mix. Spell Combat is a distinct Full-Round Action, not a Full Attack Action (even though it benefits from Haste).

As for a Kasatha, no you wouldn't. There is no "off-hand" for Flurry.


ok, so what about a plain old monk kasatha? wouldn't it get 5 attacks with flurry at first level?


Shimesen wrote:
ok, so what about a plain old monk kasatha? wouldn't it get 5 attacks with flurry at first level?

No because flurry is it's own ability, not two weapon fighting or multi-weapon fighting. It merely uses similiar mechanics as two weapon fighting (extra attack for penalties to all your attacks) and that's why it references two weapon fighting.


I really don't want to get into another debate on the special line in mwf again, but the kasatha keeps brining it back into play. I would just like to point out that any creature with more than 2 hands can fight with all available hands as a full attack action. If a kasatha takes monk levels his flurry SHOULD modify his total attack modifiers for his attacks making all of them -1 at first level. Now weather he'd be granted the extra attacks from flurry at 8th and 13th, I'm still up in the air about, but using flurry shouldn't limit his total number of attacks in a full attack action to two because twf and mwf rules (not feats) are identical.


Shimesen wrote:
I really don't want to get into another debate on the special line in mwf again, but the kasatha keeps brining it back into play. I would just like to point out that any creature with more than 2 hands can fight with all available hands as a full attack action. If a kasatha takes monk levels his flurry SHOULD modify his total attack modifiers for his attacks making all of them -1 at first level. Now weather he'd be granted the extra attacks from flurry at 8th and 13th, I'm still up in the air about, but using flurry shouldn't limit his total number of attacks in a full attack action to two because twf and mwf rules (not feats) are identical.

Again, flurry of blows is its own ability. It has similar mechanics but is not connected to two weapon fighting or multi-weapon fighting. Flurry does not care how many hands you have. Flurry does only what it says it does. You get one extra attack at first level, two extra attacks at eighth level, and three extra attacks at fifteenth level. It cannot be combined with two weapon fighting or multi-weapon fighting.


Just to be clear:

Naturally four armed PC
Monk level 1
BAB +0

Can make one attack at +0 at 1x STR
Can Flurry with two attacks at -1/-1 at 1x STR
Can multi-attack with one attack at -6 at 1x STR and three attacks at -10/-10/-10 at .5 STR (without feats)

Monk level 8
BAB +6/+1

Can full attack at +6/+1 at 1x STR
Can Flurry with four attacks at +6/+6/+1/+1 at 1x STR
Can multi-weapon attack with two attacks at +0/-6 at 1x STR and three attacks at -4/-4/-4 at .5x STR

Monk level 15
BAB +11/+6/+1

Can full attack at +11/+6/+1at 1x STR
Can Flurry with six attacks at +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 at 1x STR
Can multi-attack with three attacks at +5/+0/-5 at 1x STR and three attacks at +1/+1/+1 at .5x STR


Think of it as game balance or as a lack of rules to support multi armed characters, the same reason why there is no improved or greater multi-weapon fighting. It would make an ungodly over balanced character if you could flurry with each arm plus one extra hit just at level one. Even with the -1 penalty not much is surviving your five swings. Granted you can build characters that do things like this but usually not until the mid levels, around 7-10, and at that point there is enough other stuff going on that it's not as noticeably broken.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Shimesen wrote:
bab grants you 4 attacks because its 19/14/9/4, your flurry is still just 18/18.

No

gourry187 wrote:

Monk 2/Fighter 6

BAB = +6/+1 flurry +5/+5/+0

Does that look right?

Monk 2/Fighter 6 when Flurry:

Attack = +2 (Monk Level) +6 (Fighter BAB) - 2 = +6

+6/+6/+1

Edit: Seems this was cleared up after I loaded the page but before I responded.


why do people make this stuff unnecessarily complicated? you take your BABfrom monk monk levels add your full monk level. this gives you your bab for flurry. you then add -2 to all attacks and oneextra attack at highest BAB. the math should not be confusing once you have identified your bab for the flurry its mechanicallly identical to twf as far as the math goes.

but as others have said it isnt actually twf you cant multiweapon fight with it. but thats a discussionn for another thread.


gourry187 wrote:

Ok so I keep reading about monk dipping and how flurry works and then it hit me ... I have had a multiclass monk/ fighter for a while and as I am about to hit a +6 BAB, I want to get a grip on the number of attacks and bonuses I have.

For simplicity I'm onlyhoin to use base BAB and not include any bonus/penalty from attributes and feats

Monk 1/Fighter 5
BAB = +5 flurry +4/+4

Monk 2/Fighter 6
BAB = +6/+1 flurry +5/+5/+0

Does that look right?

Should have just checked the FAQs!

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