So long as the opponent is flat footed, flanked, or denied his dex bonus the SA damage applies. Note that denied dex because the rogue was invisible ends immediately after the first attack is made - so unless something else is denying dex, or providing flat-footed/flanked, then only the first attack gets SA.
No. They only get Sneak Attack on the first one, as the invisibility condition is gone after that first attack and the target would no longer be denied their dexterity after that.
The target may still be flat footed for not having gone yet, or flanked, or what have you, so they could possibly still get sneak attack from another method, but not from that first invisibility. You need greater invisibility for that.
I'm going to sneak a question in on this one, basd on my latest reading of the Stealth (Hint: I haven't been keeping up on the Stealth eratta).
If a creature with sneak attack has successfully used stealth to hide, such that it's enemy is denied its dex bonus to AC, can that creature use the charge action to move out of hiding, attack the enemy, and still get sneak attack damage? That wasn't phrased as clearly as I hoped so I hope my intent is clear.
Follow-up question:
If you have concealment (not total concealment), are your attacks automatically sneak attacks?
No, having concealment does not deny an opponent their dexterity. It gives them a 20% miss chance to hit you, but does nothing to help your attacks.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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full attack, do all of their attacks get Sneak Attack damage, assuming the first one "reveals" the Rogue?
Only the first attack gets SA.
If you have concealment (not total concealment), are your attacks automatically sneak attacks?
No and if they have Concealment you need Shadow Strike.
I'm going to sneak a question in on this one, basd on my latest reading of the Stealth (Hint: I haven't been keeping up on the Stealth eratta).
If a creature with sneak attack has successfully used stealth to hide, such that it's enemy is denied its dex bonus to AC, can that creature use the charge action to move out of hiding, attack the enemy, and still get sneak attack damage? That wasn't phrased as clearly as I hoped so I hope my intent is clear.
If I understand your question no, you can only charge as a standard action if you are denied a your move action for some reason.
So, if were talking about moving and then using stealth to hide from someone, they now are denied their dexterity against your attacks. But you only have a standard action left, and unless you somehow managed to move towards your enemy and stealth him (Hide in Plain Sight maybe?) then you wouldn't be able to attack that person. You certainly can't charge him as charging is a special full round action, unless you can only take a standard.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
I'm going to sneak a question in on this one, basd on my latest reading of the Stealth (Hint: I haven't been keeping up on the Stealth eratta).
If a creature with sneak attack has successfully used stealth to hide, such that it's enemy is denied its dex bonus to AC, can that creature use the charge action to move out of hiding, attack the enemy, and still get sneak attack damage? That wasn't phrased as clearly as I hoped so I hope my intent is clear.
If I understand your question no, you can only charge as a standard action if you are denied a your move action for some reason.
So, if were talking about moving and then using stealth to hide from someone, they now are denied their dexterity against your attacks. But you only have a standard action left, and unless you somehow managed to move towards your enemy and stealth him (Hide in Plain Sight maybe?) then you wouldn't be able to attack that person. You certainly can't charge him as charging is a special full round action, unless you can only take a standard.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
I read his question more as:
Round 1: I hide successfully.
Round 2: I charge my opponent.
In this case this is legit to get the SA bonus. Being hidden while still being able to have the clear and straight movement path for the charge will be difficult in most cases though.
If I misunderstood the set up then yes it is possible.
If he has already successfully hidden from his enemy, then on his next turn he could use the charge special full round action to charge his enemy and he would be able to sneak attack him if he was successfully hidden from him.
If the foe has concealment, it not only doesn't grant you sneak attack, it will DENY you sneak attack even if you qualify for other criteria (such as flanking).
If the foe has concealment, it not only doesn't grant you sneak attack, it will DENY you sneak attack even if you qualify for other criteria (such as flanking).
Unless they have something to mitigate that, like the Shadow Strike feat. Or a hand full of other possible ways to circumvent concealment.
I'm going to sneak a question in on this one, basd on my latest reading of the Stealth (Hint: I haven't been keeping up on the Stealth eratta).
If a creature with sneak attack has successfully used stealth to hide, such that it's enemy is denied its dex bonus to AC, can that creature use the charge action to move out of hiding, attack the enemy, and still get sneak attack damage? That wasn't phrased as clearly as I hoped so I hope my intent is clear.
This is situational. If you are in a surprise round or the first round of combat and are charging a flat-footed enemy, your attack would get Sneak Attack. Not because of the Stealth, but rather because your opponent is still flat-footed. However, if you are past the first round of combat and manage to gain Stealth, no. The reason is your Charge would not fall under the rules of breaking Stealth. Breaking Stealth is for a move action or a double move away from cover/concealment to another point of C/C. You can also move action away from c/c and make an attack. However, a charge is a special kind of full round action and the Stealth skill specifically says you can't use Stealth while charging. That means the instant you start your charge you become visible leaving your enemy enough time to react... no Sneak Attack. With a regular move action under Stealth and a regular attack the defender will not know you are there until the blade cuts into him, no time to react... Sneak Attack.
bbangerter's assumption of my question's situation was the correct, however as Shadowlord pointed out we specifically can not use Stealth while charging. Thanks all.
Stealth skill specifically says you can't use Stealth while charging.
I'd missed that little detail under stealth. Nice.
Yeah that's a good point I wasn't thinking about at all. Yeah, the action of charging breaks stealth by itself. Which would seem to negate the possibility of getting sneak attack.
Resurrecting this just because I'm still hoping to find an "official" FAQ/errata/source that puts this to rest forever. (I've just read 300-400 posts on the subject, and I apologize for adding to the noise, but...)
In the middle of a combat, while BBEG was attacking other players (at range), my player's invisible rogue got behind him and was about to stab him 3 times, and the moment I told him, "No, you only get sneak attack damage on the first attack. After that you're no longer invisible so the rest of the damage is normal damage," he basically quit the fight, retired his rogue, and declared the Stealth rules useless and untenable.
It didn't matter that I offered to house rule sneak attack damage for the full round. The damage was done. If the "official" rules were that only the first attack gets damage, that's what he was going to play, but it made his rogue useless so he was retiring him.
So notice bbangerter's initial response is my interpretation, and as far as I know how the "rules as written" work, but it would be sooooooo nice to have an actual reference/FAQ/developer's opinion to point to instead of our erstwhile co-posters very cogent, very valid, very well-reasoned, but still "just opinions" postings...
EDIT: Yeah, I'm aware that asking for official postings on anything is a no-no. I was just hoping that my search-fu had failed me and there was a posting on this somewhere beyond the user threads I've been through.
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Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.Breaking Stealth When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
There really isn't a need for an official ruling on the subject. You handled the Stealth skill correctly. That is the problem with Rogue's in combat. Stealth is hard.
But, if you really want some kind of "official" voice on the subject, maybe this thread with James Jacobs might be of help?
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.Breaking Stealth When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
There really isn't a need for an official ruling on the subject. You handled the Stealth skill correctly. That is the problem with Rogue's in combat. Stealth is hard.
But, if you really want some kind of "official" voice on the subject, maybe this thread with James Jacobs might be of help?
The JJ quote is EXACTLY what I was after! Thanks SO much!
I'm afraid the whole group treats James' opinions as gospel, heresy as that may be, so I can point him at that thread and it'll end the discussion.
Thanks again!
Resurrecting this just because I'm still hoping to find an "official" FAQ/errata/source that puts this to rest forever. (I've just read 300-400 posts on the subject, and I apologize for adding to the noise, but...)
In the middle of a combat, while BBEG was attacking other players (at range), my player's invisible rogue got behind him and was about to stab him 3 times, and the moment I told him, "No, you only get sneak attack damage on the first attack. After that you're no longer invisible so the rest of the damage is normal damage," he basically quit the fight, retired his rogue, and declared the Stealth rules useless and untenable.
It didn't matter that I offered to house rule sneak attack damage for the full round. The damage was done. If the "official" rules were that only the first attack gets damage, that's what he was going to play, but it made his rogue useless so he was retiring him.
So notice bbangerter's initial response is my interpretation, and as far as I know how the "rules as written" work, but it would be sooooooo nice to have an actual reference/FAQ/developer's opinion to point to instead of our erstwhile co-posters very cogent, very valid, very well-reasoned, but still "just opinions" postings...
EDIT: Yeah, I'm aware that asking for official postings on anything is a no-no. I was just hoping that my search-fu had failed me and there was a posting on this somewhere beyond the user threads I've been through.
By the rules your invis stops working upon the first attack. That attack also ends stealth. JJ is not the rules guy*, but the guys who actually write the rules say the same thing.
*I am mentioning this in case you get a new player, and he tells you this, so you know it's true.
Resurrecting this just because I'm still hoping to find an "official" FAQ/errata/source that puts this to rest forever. (I've just read 300-400 posts on the subject, and I apologize for adding to the noise, but...)
In the middle of a combat, while BBEG was attacking other players (at range), my player's invisible rogue got behind him and was about to stab him 3 times, and the moment I told him, "No, you only get sneak attack damage on the first attack. After that you're no longer invisible so the rest of the damage is normal damage," he basically quit the fight, retired his rogue, and declared the Stealth rules useless and untenable.
It didn't matter that I offered to house rule sneak attack damage for the full round. The damage was done. If the "official" rules were that only the first attack gets damage, that's what he was going to play, but it made his rogue useless so he was retiring him.
So notice bbangerter's initial response is my interpretation, and as far as I know how the "rules as written" work, but it would be sooooooo nice to have an actual reference/FAQ/developer's opinion to point to instead of our erstwhile co-posters very cogent, very valid, very well-reasoned, but still "just opinions" postings...
EDIT: Yeah, I'm aware that asking for official postings on anything is a no-no. I was just hoping that my search-fu had failed me and there was a posting on this somewhere beyond the user threads I've been through.
If the Rogue was behind the BBEG, then he should be flanking. as long as a rogue is flanking then he gets sneak attack on all his attacks.
"The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
No, having concealment does not deny an opponent their dexterity. It gives them a 20% miss chance to hit you, but does nothing to help your attacks.Follow-up question:
If you have concealment (not total concealment), are your attacks automatically sneak attacks?
True, having Concealment does not deny your opponent his Dex bonus, and as James and others have pointed out, if your opponent has concealment, too, such as if you were all fighting in Smoke, then Sneak Attack is usually thrown right out the window unless you have some mitigating factor such as the Shadow Strike Rogue Talent.
But if you have Total Concealment by making your opponent Blind with the Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver, then you totally get Sneak Attack on everything you hit him with next.
Small clarification (since this wasn't the case before the necro), the UC Rogue changes the concealment language in their Sneak Attack.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with total concealment.
Emphasis mine.
Resurrecting this just because I'm still hoping to find an "official" FAQ/errata/source that puts this to rest forever. (I've just read 300-400 posts on the subject, and I apologize for adding to the noise, but...)
In the middle of a combat, while BBEG was attacking other players (at range), my player's invisible rogue got behind him and was about to stab him 3 times, and the moment I told him, "No, you only get sneak attack damage on the first attack. After that you're no longer invisible so the rest of the damage is normal damage," he basically quit the fight, retired his rogue, and declared the Stealth rules useless and untenable.
It didn't matter that I offered to house rule sneak attack damage for the full round. The damage was done. If the "official" rules were that only the first attack gets damage, that's what he was going to play, but it made his rogue useless so he was retiring him.
So notice bbangerter's initial response is my interpretation, and as far as I know how the "rules as written" work, but it would be sooooooo nice to have an actual reference/FAQ/developer's opinion to point to instead of our erstwhile co-posters very cogent, very valid, very well-reasoned, but still "just opinions" postings...
EDIT: Yeah, I'm aware that asking for official postings on anything is a no-no. I was just hoping that my search-fu had failed me and there was a posting on this somewhere beyond the user threads I've been through.
If the Rogue was behind the BBEG, then he should be flanking. as long as a rogue is flanking then he gets sneak attack on all his attacks.
"The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
Flanking requires an ally. There were no allies within 30' of the rogue.
Resurrecting this just because I'm still hoping to find an "official" FAQ/errata/source that puts this to rest forever. (I've just read 300-400 posts on the subject, and I apologize for adding to the noise, but...)
In the middle of a combat, while BBEG was attacking other players (at range), my player's invisible rogue got behind him and was about to stab him 3 times, and the moment I told him, "No, you only get sneak attack damage on the first attack. After that you're no longer invisible so the rest of the damage is normal damage," he basically quit the fight, retired his rogue, and declared the Stealth rules useless and untenable.
It didn't matter that I offered to house rule sneak attack damage for the full round. The damage was done. If the "official" rules were that only the first attack gets damage, that's what he was going to play, but it made his rogue useless so he was retiring him.
So notice bbangerter's initial response is my interpretation, and as far as I know how the "rules as written" work, but it would be sooooooo nice to have an actual reference/FAQ/developer's opinion to point to instead of our erstwhile co-posters very cogent, very valid, very well-reasoned, but still "just opinions" postings...
EDIT: Yeah, I'm aware that asking for official postings on anything is a no-no. I was just hoping that my search-fu had failed me and there was a posting on this somewhere beyond the user threads I've been through.
If the rogue of your party had greater invisibility he would have been able to get sneak attack on all his attacks. But regular invisibility will only allow one, then it is broken by the attack and unless the character has somehow produced another way for him to Sneak Attack the enemy (there are methods) then he will not continue to get sneak attack.
The player needs to invest in Two Weapon Feint and Improved Two Weapon Feint. It also helps if he's playing an Unchained Rogue instead of core rogue.
Hint:
For really big fights, or climatic BBEG encounters, every rogue worth his salt should carry "Dust of Disappearance", which gives you Greater invisibility for 2d6 rounds.
Or be a Ninja, and just call yourself a rogue, and get the ability at 10th level to Greater Invis yourself per ki-pool ability.
Or play an Arcane Trickster, who can cast regular Greater Invisibility on himself.
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Or play an Eldritch Scoundrel. Sure it reduces your Sneak Attack progression, but it also gives you 6th level spell casting from the wizard spell list. And you can cast Sense Vitals, which gives you back you Sneak Attack progression.
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No, having concealment does not deny an opponent their dexterity. It gives them a 20% miss chance to hit you, but does nothing to help your attacks.Follow-up question:
If you have concealment (not total concealment), are your attacks automatically sneak attacks?
Concealment allows the attacker to use Stealth.
Successful Stealth renders the target unaware of the attacker.An unaware attacker is denied their Dex bonus.
However the interesting question posed for this thread is:
* If you are Stealthed, and make a Full Attack, so the opponent is Unaware of your first attack, and you Deny Dex,
* is the opponent still unaware after the first attack, and can iterative attacks also claim Stealth, and so Deny Dex?
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No, having concealment does not deny an opponent their dexterity. It gives them a 20% miss chance to hit you, but does nothing to help your attacks.Follow-up question:
If you have concealment (not total concealment), are your attacks automatically sneak attacks?
Concealment allows the attacker to use Stealth.
Successful Stealth renders the target unaware of the attacker.
An unaware attacker is denied their Dex bonus.However the interesting question posed for this thread is:
* If you are Stealthed, and make a Full Attack, so the opponent is Unaware of your first attack, and you Deny Dex,
* is the opponent still unaware after the first attack, and can iterative attacks also claim Stealth, and so Deny Dex?
and the answer given above is "No: Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below)."
No, having concealment does not deny an opponent their dexterity. It gives them a 20% miss chance to hit you, but does nothing to help your attacks.Follow-up question:
If you have concealment (not total concealment), are your attacks automatically sneak attacks?
Concealment allows the attacker to use Stealth.
Successful Stealth renders the target unaware of the attacker.
An unaware attacker is denied their Dex bonus.However the interesting question posed for this thread is:
* If you are Stealthed, and make a Full Attack, so the opponent is Unaware of your first attack, and you Deny Dex,
* is the opponent still unaware after the first attack, and can iterative attacks also claim Stealth, and so Deny Dex?
No. Attacking breaks stealth. Once stealth is broken the opponent knows where you are and gets their dex bonus if no other rules kick in to prevent it.
Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Otherwise invisibility could also be used to gain a full round of attacks with denied dex, since invisibility in (essentially) super stealth - or could even be used to insure you have stealth by boosting your stealth roll.
Any thoughts on considering the opponent of the Rogue flat-footed(against the rogue only) until the opponent has acted after perceiving the rogue, even if its not the first round of combat?
So invisible rogue breaks invisibility on the first of iterative attacks on say, round 3, after the opponent has acted during rounds 1 and 2, and now the opponent can perceive the rogue, but since the opponent hasn't acted since the rogue broke invisibility, one could argue the opponent is still flat-footed against the rogue, similarly to the beginning of combat. They haven't had a chance to react and defend themselves.
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Any thoughts on considering the opponent of the Rogue flat-footed(against the rogue only) until the opponent has acted after perceiving the rogue, even if its not the first round of combat?
So invisible rogue breaks invisibility on the first of iterative attacks on say, round 3, after the opponent has acted during rounds 1 and 2, and now the opponent can perceive the rogue, but since the opponent hasn't acted since the rogue broke invisibility, one could argue the opponent is still flat-footed against the rogue, similarly to the beginning of combat. They haven't had a chance to react and defend themselves.
It doesn't work that way.
After the battle has started the opponent is aware he is in a fight and will not be flat-footed by a new combatant entering the fray.
Flat-footedness isn't per enemy. It's a general combat state. The creature is already at a state of heightened alertness and is able to react to the evolving combat situation since they are actively trying to avoid getting hurt (hence getting their dex mod to ac). They will be caught off guard when the rogue pops out of nowhere and stabs them. But the initial shock quickly wears off and now that they are aware of the rogue they can properly dodge the rogue's second attack.
Unless an ability specifically causes the enemy to become flat-footed to a limited number of creatures (eg. Shatter Defenses) its something that applies globally or not at all.