(SPOILERS) Way of the Wicked Book 3: Tears of the DM


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I've been running a party through Way of the Wicked for a couple months now, and we're closing in on the end of Book 3, and I'm seeing issues left and right.

In the first book, my players were getting spanked by everything, though in book two and especially book 3, nothing is challenging. The reason is clear: three of them have leadership. I know they acknowledge the issue with multiple cohorts in book 2 and I've accounted for that in fights, but seemingly to no avail. By finishing Artephius, they have an infinite-shot catapult with touch attacks that follows them into (nearly) every combat. Has anyone else seen these issues?

During the assault on the Vale, my party was roaming around with the four, three cohorts, Artephius, and three Nessian Warhounds from the Contract Devil (each of which can do fireball damage every 1d4 rounds). Did anyone else watch the Warhounds smother absolutely everything they faced in seconds? ((Book 2: the party had used their last 'request' of Vetra Kali to be eternal servitude (the players are wicked indeed)! Ironically, they forgot to call on him during this whole book. All the same, can you imagine?))

When it came to the Phoenix (which they put off until the last possible minute), they buffed like mad (fire resist 30 on everyone but Artephius), moved in with the half-fiend-Vital-Striking Grumblejack + Four-Armed Elephant-sized Eidolon, and smoked it in two turns. Desecrate was easy to manage (half-fiends). They drained its blood for Blood Transcription, stuffed the ashes into a Bag of Holding IV, plane-shifted to Hell, dumped it out and left! They got the egg, and I RPed an example NPC that traded undead grafts (with some adjustments for balance/fairness) and magical items. What did folks do about the egg? They say it's worth at least 250,000gp (I gave 200k worth, which was split evenly among four). Should the egg just not be worth as much as the Adventure Path book says it is?

In the Cathedral of Mitra Made Manifest, the first floor was very tedious. Every room, the party loots, and gets assaulted by three ghost paladins, and there are 10+ such rooms. Did you play out each fight, or skip a lot of the encounters altogether?

When encountering the Lord-Abbot downstairs, the party killed him in two player actions (vital strike + poison spit (which only did 15)). The guy has a Constitution of 10; how is he suppose to be challenging? Did anyone else's party just walk through him?

((As a side-comment, the editing of this book was sorely lacking and in some cases confusing. "The two e's in the word servant" still boggles my mind.))

For the most part, I want to see what others' experience with Book 3 of Way of the Wicked has been like, and if its anything like the group I'm running for.


I believe this post shouldn't be here but in other products. There is a post about book three full of suggestions.

However, the answer to your problem is quite simple: MOOOORE monster!
Give every NPC that is important some cohort(angels), and dress them a bit. An example could be give to Ara Mathra some clothes (he's naked and withoud a shield, if I am correct). Also, some "evil monster redeemed" could be funny. An example could be:

The Ghaele with an armor (use spell for exalted deed, it's funny) and 3 raelis eladrin (or firre or noviere if you find them in pathfinder).
If the lord abbot was so easy, then let's have round to with ghost abbot inside the vault!

Also, a good way to slow down the characters is to destroy their cohorts or force them to return in the city of Sanctum. 1 storm giant? No, let's say 4 cloud giants and a Storm giant. Let the bugbear plead to pcs to be saved!

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Conspicuous wrote:
In the first book, my players were getting spanked by everything, though in book two and especially book 3, nothing is challenging. The reason is clear: three of them have leadership.

What you have run into is one of the reasons that many GMs disallow or heavily restrict Leadership (including PFS by the way). It works much better as an NPC feat.

Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:
However, the answer to your problem is quite simple: MOOOORE monster!

Pnakotus is correct. You now have to reassess the effective level of your "villains." The warhounds and cohorts add the equivalent of three extra characters to your PC party. This allows you to add a +2 to the CR of every encounter. Yes, all this is more prep-work for you as a GM, but it will be better then the frustration you are dealing with now.

While Lawful Evil types can cooperate, ultimately everyone is out for themselves. Play their allies more treacherously (but avoid pointless or stupid treachery). Make sure your PCs are looking over their shoulder. Your players wanted to be EVIL. Make sure they experience the downside to that as well as the benefits.

Counter-wise, one of the benefits that "Good" has in the cosmic struggle is that they tend to cooperate very well (it is that whole "selflessness" thing). When things start to go south for the NPC, what stops them from calling nearby allies for help?

Conspicuous wrote:
((Book 2: the party had used their last 'request' of Vetra Kali to be eternal servitude (the players are wicked indeed)!

The upside to all this is that your players are smart and ruthless; but that means you have to up your game too.


@Pnakotus Detsujin

I took the suggestion of adding Round Two with the Lord Abbot as a ghost (template included), and also added an Astral Deva to the fight with Ara Mathra. The players really liked it, as it turns out, though the fight was still a breeze for these guys. Maybe I need to give every monster Improved Initiative, because usually things explode before they get a chance to act a second time (or at all in some cases).

In order to keep their level reigned in, I've kept the XP distribution to the original encounters (otherwise, they would be lvl 22 by the time they get to the final book, thus compounding the issue).

In book 4 so far, I've doubled nearly every encounter, which just leads to an excruciatingly long combat every time (the gargoyles were painful without being effective against the party). During one particular combat (I cannot recall which) there were 14 initiative numbers

Dark Archive

More monsters is one solution but usually only prolongs a given result. A more effective solution has always been BETTER tactics. Give the opponents 2-3 rounds to prepare before the PC's and their minions to show up and have these GENIUS Intelligence level creatures get ready.

the PC's have been loud about what they do so the BBEG has used a few scrolls to get significant resistances to Fire (removes the Hellhounds and Artephius as threats), thrown a few grease spells around to protect himself from charging attacks and used spider climb to get out of reach of Grumblejack. 500GP in scrolls removes 80% of the NPC's effectiveness.

As for your players since all we know is you have a summoner so anything that prevents summoned critters from entering an area massively decreases his power (I like Hallow with a linked Protection from Evil). Follow that up with a Dismissal or Banishment for the eidolon and you can pretty much ignore the summoner while you focus down the real threats. Tell us about the rest of your party if you want some actual advice on upping the challenge.

My personal favorite way of dealing with parties that bring lots of minions, cohorts or Summons with it is a simple Symbol of Sleep (persistent) on the casters clothes. 90% of the time the cohorts/summons lack the will save to be able to handle making that save twice and drops unconscious as soon as they show up or try to affect the caster. Follow that with a Dispel Magic, Greater (area Effect version), Persistent and boom the party is immediately on the defensive and panicking. That's round 1 of the fight, anything after that is just for fun.

Finally to follow up on the main weaknesses of Cohorts is how one dimensionally built they are. A smart Boss will take advantage of that and keep on retainer/summon a creature with Dominate Monster as an ability. 2 Succubi employees who start the fight with a dominate monster on Grumblejack and any other physical looking chort and ordering them to destroy the party is a more than valid option.

Work on your tactics and prep and you'll see a whole new level of caution/fear from your players.


@Mathwei ap Niall

I didn't realize how tactically I needed to handle the situation, but thanks to your (no offense) terrifying suggestions, the players may choke during the next part (Eiramanthus).

I apologize for not vocalizing the party make-up before:

PC#1: Half-fiend (2nd character) Summoner with a chainsaw for an Eidolon. He mostly functions as a support to the party with Greater Invis and Prot from Energy/Resist Energy (sometimes both).
PC#2: Tiefling Fiendish Vessel Cleric/"Unholy" Vindicator that hops between melee and spell-casting. Crazy bonus to pass through SR, but horrific D20 luck.
PC#3: The heavily-templated Devilbound (Imp, nixxed the Summon devil 1/day) Vampire Witch with a focus on DeBuffing (almost no buffs at all). Lots of will saves through sleep effects and Misfortune.
PC#4: NPC "tank", Dwarven Armor Master who has become largely ineffective thanks to Grumble and our Cleric/Unholy Vindicator. His saves are very good thanks to Steel Soul.

NPC#1: Artephius. During the storming of the Vale, he crit literally five times in a row (had to see it to believe it) and has since become the party mascot. He's crit maybe twice ever since, but our Summoner is never far from him. He has unlimited bombs of a random element, though the splash as per RAW is only 1d6.
NPC#2: Grumblejack, who is now a Half-Fiend (Book 2) Two-Handed Fighter that lays the vital-striking smackdown . . . so long as he hits. Average of ~62 dmg per hit. Thanks to Half-Fiend (at least, book 2's rendition) he can magically fly (80ft good), and he uses this to his advantage constantly
NPC#3: Dhampir Anti-Paladin (home-ruled to be Lawful Evil). This guy wasn't good at first, but now he gives everyone in the area a Smite Good and all enemies turn to fine red mist before the round is done. His fighting style is identical to Grumble's save for the flying bit. Not surprisingly, his saves are just stupid.
NPC#4: Vampire Sniper Rogue, newest to our freakish family. His strategy has been quite simple as of late: give him Greater Invis, and he finishes off everything (~30 dmg per shot, 4 shots with Blessing of Fervor). All of his skills are just insane (Vampire), and he functions like an early warning radar everywhere they go.
NPC#5: Vetra-Kali Eats-The-Eyes, an advanced unique six-armed leukodaemon tricked into eternal servitude (CR 15). He has been neglected for everything since getting him at the end of Book 2, but after facing down the Time-Stop-casting consort, the party QQ'd at their memory decided that he would 'never leave their sides again'. Still working on a strategy to throw him out (likely involving an assault on the Horn of Abbadon, which will result in his re-banishment and the players' eternal enmity).

Before going into the third book, it was an unspoken rule that the Nessian Warhounds were forfeit (mostly because of . . . well, everything).

So that's the clan. On the whole, our party's saves are generally ridiculous except for Reflex, though I expect they'll get the chance to suffer from that penalty with Eiramanthus. I plan on throwing in another surprise "4th consort" to aid him, though unsure what to use yet (Grtr Invis. Evoker, mebe). In general, their ACs are also stupid (melee ACs are approx: 27(vetra), 28(anti), 34(dwarf, ironically), ~35(cleric), 36(Grumble), 41(eidolon buffed). Hitting them where it hurts often seems short-lived.

Dark Archive

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Thanks for the party make-up. You have an interesting set of players there and a well played Eiramanthus will devastate them in 2 rounds. You'll have to dispense with his tactics as written but considering your difficulties with these players you should be fine tweaking things a bit.
If you're open to suggestions do this.

First give him a Diamond Metamagic Gem to give him a single Quicken spell for any level spell.
Second, Change his Extend metamagic rod to an enlarge one.
Finally, cast mislead right before the party enters the room and talk to them through that. A +4 init will be the death of him in the first round if he doesn't get them to waste their first round on an illusion.

This will turn that fight into a nightmare for the players but still give them a real chance to win. The actual fight (after the dialogue and RP) should go like this:
Standard action cast Stone to Mud on the area UNDER the players. There is no save for this so instantly the party is chest deep in the mud. Difficult terrain and limited to 5 feet movement with penalties to AC and hit. Follow this with a quickened (from the Gem) Anti-magic field (Enlarged by the rod) so it's 20 feet area under the dragon (the dragon's head is outside the area of the spell so it can still breath and cast spells. Move action to fly over the stuck party and cover them with the field.

This shuts down all their magic items, spells, spell-like & supernatural abilities and banishes all their summoned creatures. Panic will immediately set in since the only party member that can reach/attack the dragon is Grumblejack (he's the only one with non-magical flight) and as soon as he tries he eats a +36 CMB improved Disarm to remove his ability to do damage.

The important thing to remember at this point is you DO want the players to win so don't just land and full attack. That's an insta-kill and no fun for anyone (his minimum is 70pts of damage a round with a 100+ being a safe bet). The dragon is a trickster, not a combat machine, have him talk, joke and threaten while they figure out how to get out of this horrible situation.

You can also use this opportunity to remove a few of the more unpleasant minions the party has accumulated to make your future easier.This would be an excellent time to remove Vetra-Kali Eats-The-Eyes and Grumblejack (put the PC armor Master back in the spotlight as the main melee machine with these two gone) by having the dragon devour them. Give a little speech on how much he despises demon/daemon-kind then swallow them whole (they'll need a reincarnate or resurrection to bring them back from that which they probably won't be able to do).

Eventually the fight will really start but the players will be thinking defensively instead of trying to annhilate it in one round making the fight a little less one-sided (9 against 1 is a death sentence for the 1 in a straight fight) but there are a few more things you can do to make it more interesting.

The dragon's See Invis last 2.5 hours per cast so no sneak attacks from the rogue and a 19 will save should make him relatively immune to Misfortune hex (he's immune to most of the other offensive hexes the witch should have) especially if he stays flying out of range.

Remember to never stop flying to avoid the full attacks and throw Reverse Gravity, Wall of Stone, Programmed image (of the allies running into the room to defend him) and Mislead as much as you can with the occasional Quickened Glitterdust for giggles.

Tactics make or break encounters and at this level of the game it's all about using ALL of your creatures abilities against their foes. A dragon of this level is no joke and if it wants to should be able to annhilate nearly any party who dares to challenge it. If you still thnk the party is going to easily run over this encounter well there's a certain Demi-Lich in the next room who could very easily use this battle as an opportunity to try and break lose making this a 3 way fight. Be careful with this option though, that's a CR 18 challenge fighting these 2 together and would normally be a TPK (this isn't a normal party though).


Conspicuous wrote:

I've been running a party through Way of the Wicked for a couple months now, and we're closing in on the end of Book 3, and I'm seeing issues left and right.

In the first book, my players were getting spanked by everything, though in book two and especially book 3, nothing is challenging. The reason is clear: three of them have leadership. I know they acknowledge the issue with multiple cohorts in book 2 and I've accounted for that in fights, but seemingly to no avail. By finishing Artephius, they have an infinite-shot catapult with touch attacks that follows them into (nearly) every combat. Has anyone else seen these issues?

During the assault on the Vale, my party was roaming around with the four, three cohorts, Artephius, and three Nessian Warhounds from the Contract Devil (each of which can do fireball damage every 1d4 rounds). Did anyone else watch the Warhounds smother absolutely everything they faced in seconds? ((Book 2: the party had used their last 'request' of Vetra Kali to be eternal servitude (the players are wicked indeed)! Ironically, they forgot to call on him during this whole book. All the same, can you imagine?))

When it came to the Phoenix (which they put off until the last possible minute), they buffed like mad (fire resist 30 on everyone but Artephius), moved in with the half-fiend-Vital-Striking Grumblejack + Four-Armed Elephant-sized Eidolon, and smoked it in two turns. Desecrate was easy to manage (half-fiends). They drained its blood for Blood Transcription, stuffed the ashes into a Bag of Holding IV, plane-shifted to Hell, dumped it out and left! They got the egg, and I RPed an example NPC that traded undead grafts (with some adjustments for...

Our group also just finished this book, and so far I've got to say I'm fairly unimpressed with the whole adventure path. The story is fun, but the actual mechanics and design of everything are really lacking. This book in particular was noticeable, since depending on the order you fight things in, you can (and we did) end up fighting about 2 full sessions of enemies with ridiculously high saves, SR (or flat out magic immunity), tons of hit points, immunities or resistances to nearly every energy type, and who spontaneously return to life after you kill them. Our whole party was so fed up and frustrated by the end of last night's session that the DM skipped about half the encounters towards the end and just rushed us through to the final fight so we could be done with this book. We're hoping things improve in the next one or we may never finish this.


Conspicuous wrote:

@Mathwei ap Niall

I didn't realize how tactically I needed to handle the situation, but thanks to your (no offense) terrifying suggestions, the players may choke during the next part (Eiramanthus).

If I'm correct about what i've read, you have 2 vampires, 1 half fiend and a soon to be graveknight + Vetra Kali, the ogre, another vampire and a soon to be vampire despot ...

So, hear me out: you have to punish them hard, and you can do at the copper dragon place. They (pcs) are level 13 or more, right? so, here what to do ...

1) follow mathwei tactis (remenber thought that the dragon cannot use is breath in antimagic because good part of his body is inside

2) send someone against vetra kali expecially for him - he's a deacon of pestilence, it should not be allowed to stay free in the world. the tears of aklys are not his only weapon. this being (a CR 15 something) should be me at the dragon house. i suggest the angel at the throne room, and switch the latter with a greater challange.

3) Let the dragon know pcs are coming - i mean, the have: destroyed valtaerna, killed of many high celestials, killed the son of Antharia Regina and they ride a dragon around. Eira should have sensors around Chargammon house and know everything about them and have strategies just for them. like wands of searing light and scrolls of sunbeam.


@Mathwei ap Niall

I took some of your suggestions (the party flipped out when he started quickening spells; my players get angry when they're surprised :D ). I started with the Mislead for his eternal-conversation before launching the assault.

Knowing the dragon was not going to be enough, I also threw in a Manitou (CR15, constant grtr invis) as a mystery 4th consor. At the intro to combat, she threw down a purple wurm right between the party and the dragon illusion, who then swallowed Vetra Kali whole. Ended up being a bad decision, as he proceded to "exit" via his "cone" ability (vague for decency). Everything when topsy-turvy when I threw in Reverse Gravity, but as it turned out, everyone in the party (minus Artephius and the vamp rogue) had Slow Fall cloaks or wings. The rogue clung to the wall via Spider Climb, but Artephius was cushioned only by his DR.

The party anti-paladin tried to smite (and give everyone else a use of smite) on the illusion, but it failed (because the illusion is not evil). Vetra Kali went toe-to-toe with the dragon and was barely scratched thanks to his ridiculous DR 15. Dragon popped antimagic field against him, which coincidentally banished our Summoner's eidolon (the player was not pleased).

Overall, the combat was pure chaos, and the players were rather frustrated (I think it was because of the difficulty and complication of Reverse Gravity). They were challenged, even if no one perished, and really felt like they earned that dragon's hoard

molten_dragon wrote:
Our group also just finished this book, and so far I've got to say I'm fairly unimpressed with the whole adventure path. The story is fun, but the actual mechanics and design of everything are really lacking. This book in particular was noticeable, since depending on the order you fight things in, you can (and we did) end up fighting about 2 full sessions of enemies with ridiculously high saves, SR (or flat out magic immunity), tons of hit points, immunities or resistances to nearly every energy type, and who spontaneously return to life after you kill them. Our whole party was so fed up and frustrated by the end of last night's session that the DM skipped about half the encounters towards the end and just rushed us through to the final fight so we could be done with this book. We're hoping things improve in the next one or we may never finish this.

There is a noteable lack of editing that only intensifies throughout the books (spelling and grammer-related errors everywhere). Did your players have access to the Nightmare/hounds from book 2, or the Nessian Warhounds? How about Artephius? At the end of book 3, there are a ridiculous amount of arbitrary easy encounters that do nothing but waste time (it doesn't 'weaken the group' if they leave, rest and return before the big guy). I'm fairly sure the difficulty is based on having a least 1 other tack-on (Grumble, Artephius, etc), though my party clearly had the opposite problem with 8 people (at the time) rolling from one room to the next.

Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:
If I'm correct about what i've read, you have 2 vampires, 1 half fiend and a soon to be graveknight + Vetra Kali, the ogre, another vampire and a soon to be vampire despot ...

My freak-show is 1 vampire, 1 vampire/Devilbound (imp), a dhampir (vampire-lite), 1 ogre/half-fiend, 1 human/half-fiend, an Alchemical Golem, an Advanced Unique Leukodaemon, the human/half-fiend's ridiculous pet, an "ordinary" tiefling and a truly ordinary dwarf. This does not account for the Nightmare that they own (and never remember) and now a young adult black dragon (which I will be just writing off). Never allowing more than two (probably not more than one) player to have leadership again.

Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

2) send someone against vetra kali expecially for him - he's a deacon of pestilence, it should not be allowed to stay free in the world. the tears of aklys are not his only weapon. this being (a CR 15 something) should be me at the dragon house.

3) Let the dragon know pcs are coming - i mean, the have: destroyed valtaerna, killed of many high celestials, killed the son of Antharia Regina and they ride a dragon around. Eira should have sensors around Chargammon house and know everything about them and have strategies just for them. like wands of searing light and scrolls of sunbeam.

I actually sent both the dragon and the purple wurm against him, and it didn't cut it (though he was at less than half health at the end). Not 100% sure what you mean by the Angel in the Throne Room (Ara Mathra is dead by that point)

I did give the dragon prior-knowledge, as he met them with a Mislead (I forgot about the Programmed Image during the combat). The strategies I used were not 100% on queue admittedly, and I didn't use any scrolls (lessons learned), though the metamagic gems came in handy.

Exo-Guardians

If the Copper Dragon has ANY idea that a large group of heavily armed psychos is approaching his island he will take some precautions. My party had to attack the crystal island multiple times. A big dragon + one or more of his consorts is a devastating encounter. Even with the full team (an ogre mage, Grumblejack, a medusa, 4 cohorts and 5 PCs) they had trouble.

There are several effects in the game which are hit dice dependent. The "Holy Word" spell comes to mind and by now your group should be meeting clerics who can drop one. Fear saves can rapidly split up the group and dragon fear has a big area. One thing I've been doing lately is sneaking a mythic tier or template onto important NPCs (like Tiadora). Those powers can change the fights in interesting ways and the PCs never have to know. It works best on Boss Monsters or creatures the players haven't memorized the stats for. To deal with Arty (the alchemical golem) I just played up the "programming faults" it is described as having. The group left him behind in the Vale because they were worried about it turning on them.

I have to agree with the lack of editing. There are many spots were the default Office spell check clearly wasn't run. If I remember right, about 1/2 way through book 3 I had to start reading ahead more and updating all the combat encounters. Mostly to add a target or two to give the larger group something to do.

I think one thing that was assumed in the AP that I ignored was letting the party take Grumblejack as a "Team Cohort" that would have the same hit dice they have plus the half fiend template.

The fact that the party size more than doubles after the Horn is not taken into account by the author. The easiest way to deal with that is simply remove the sideline characters. As they don't level up at the same rate as the main PC's they should be easy (relatively speaking) to kill off. If the group really wants to waste resources bringing them back fine. If the party has enough help and there is an encounter where they could recruit someone new, skip it. Don't bring it up, don't replace it with a fight, just move along.

Does the entire group travel together? that has to make some things much harder. Even if the humanoids have the Iron Circlets, the more monstrous elements will not be welcome anywhere civilized. I know the party is evil, but until book 6 the nation of Talingard is Lawful Good. They should be getting harassed at every turn. Low to mid level paladins, random townsfolk, even other celestials. These people burned down Mitra's holiest site right. If they get too out of hand just drop a Solar on them (weapon of last resort obviously).

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molten_dragon wrote:
Conspicuous wrote:

I've been running a party through Way of the Wicked for a couple months now, and we're closing in on the end of Book 3, and I'm seeing issues left and right.

In the first book, my players were getting spanked by everything, though in book two and especially book 3, nothing is challenging. The reason is clear: three of them have leadership. I know they acknowledge the issue with multiple cohorts in book 2 and I've accounted for that in fights, but seemingly to no avail. By finishing Artephius, they have an infinite-shot catapult with touch attacks that follows them into (nearly) every combat. Has anyone else seen these issues?

During the assault on the Vale, my party was roaming around with the four, three cohorts, Artephius, and three Nessian Warhounds from the Contract Devil (each of which can do fireball damage every 1d4 rounds). Did anyone else watch the Warhounds smother absolutely everything they faced in seconds? ((Book 2: the party had used their last 'request' of Vetra Kali to be eternal servitude (the players are wicked indeed)! Ironically, they forgot to call on him during this whole book. All the same, can you imagine?))

When it came to the Phoenix (which they put off until the last possible minute), they buffed like mad (fire resist 30 on everyone but Artephius), moved in with the half-fiend-Vital-Striking Grumblejack + Four-Armed Elephant-sized Eidolon, and smoked it in two turns. Desecrate was easy to manage (half-fiends). They drained its blood for Blood Transcription, stuffed the ashes into a Bag of Holding IV, plane-shifted to Hell, dumped it out and left! They got the egg, and I RPed an example NPC that traded undead grafts

...

Welcome to the wonderful world of High Level Pathfinder play. There is no way an author that can write an AP that can played as is for every group of crazy players with access to feats/spells/abilities that didn't exist when the book was written.

This AP is designed to be an excellent framework for a DM to tweak to address the vagaries of their individual parties. Your GM is responsible for taking what is presented and polishing it to make the PC's experience fit their abilities/playstyle.
It's written to assume a default set of classes (the standard fighter, rogue, Wizard,Cleric) who are assumed to be able to do x,y & z at this level of play. If you have a party of all witches with a dozen undead/outsider minions then the GM needs to change it to challenge that style of group.
If your GM hasn't taken the time to set it at your parties level of competence and play-style then things are definitely going to be less then optimal.

As for the Cohorts, yeah they are potent when you get them but they don't stay that way.
As the party levels those cohorts fall further and further behind and stop contributing much pretty quickly. Remember when XP time comes around those cohorts get between 1/3rd to 1/4th as much as the PC's so they quickly become 3-5 levels behind. They actually become a liability by the next book in the series. (when assigning XP divide the cohort's level by the PC's leaders level. Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to you, then add that number of experience points to the cohort's total).

As for the Dragon encounter yeah, that's the reason I said rock to mud instead of reverse gravity. By this level of the game (and with your party specifically) it's assumed that most if not all of them can fly. Dropping them into a mud pool does more than throw them off their feet, it significantly messes with their mobility and the anti-magic field removes their ability to get out of it. Reverse gravity just gives them a free get away from the dragon's area card. It helps more then it hurts.

As for the worm and dragon being unable to kill the demon I have no idea how it lived. It's DR isn't good enough to stop the sheer amount of damage those two can put out in a round. Especially since all of those abilities it has stops working inside the anti-magic field the dragon has running.

Dark Archive

Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:
Conspicuous wrote:

@Mathwei ap Niall

I didn't realize how tactically I needed to handle the situation, but thanks to your (no offense) terrifying suggestions, the players may choke during the next part (Eiramanthus).

If I'm correct about what i've read, you have 2 vampires, 1 half fiend and a soon to be graveknight + Vetra Kali, the ogre, another vampire and a soon to be vampire despot ...

So, hear me out: you have to punish them hard, and you can do at the copper dragon place. They (pcs) are level 13 or more, right? so, here what to do ...

1) follow mathwei tactis (remenber thought that the dragon cannot use is breath in antimagic because good part of his body is inside

2) send someone against vetra kali expecially for him - he's a deacon of pestilence, it should not be allowed to stay free in the world. the tears of aklys are not his only weapon. this being (a CR 15 something) should be me at the dragon house. i suggest the angel at the throne room, and switch the latter with a greater challange.

3) Let the dragon know pcs are coming - i mean, the have: destroyed valtaerna, killed of many high celestials, killed the son of Antharia Regina and they ride a dragon around. Eira should have sensors around Chargammon house and know everything about them and have strategies just for them. like wands of searing light and scrolls of sunbeam.

Actually you are incorrect with the anti magic field. As long as any part of the body is outside the field it's free to use it's magical abilities. The size of this dragon exceeds the size of the field (slightly) so as long as it's head is out and the party currently isn't in it then it's free to use it's breath weapon. I'd recommend a strafing flight that stops right over them tends to be the best.

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