Don't believe anything he tells you. Nothing.


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Taking Ross's suggestion to the example RD gives it's easy to see how a master manipulator with a high bluff can get around it so long as the NPC gives them a chance to speak. It's all about crafting a lie that they *might* believe and giving them every reason to want to act on that information, a high enough Bluff skill simply encapsulates that the argument you make is convincing enough to grab their attention and make them question.

Captain: Don't believe a word Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar says, it is ALL lies, every word he speaks! He is NOT to be allowed past.

Guard: Sir, Yes Sir!

A few hours later...

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: Why hello there guardsman!

Guard: HA! My Captain warned me about you, I know you'll lie to me so begone!

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: Hmm... okay. But I'd just like you to know I am not currently, and never have been great friends with your Captain.

Guard: Err...

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: In fact, he did not EXPRESSLY send me here to keep you occupied whilst he fornicates with your wife.

Guard: Wait a minute...

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: They are definitely not going at it like rabbits, in your bed RIGHT NOW.

Guard: THAT BASTARD! /runs home.

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: Dum de dum de dum. /heads on past.


Xaratherus wrote:


As to the word 'amicably' somehow being undignified

I found the use of the word undignified, not the word itself.

And It is the implications of his words that conveyed the arrogance, not the statements themselves.

And if his intend was clearly so sincere, It would've been as easy as to simply open with that and let it end there.


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Xaratherus wrote:

Having followed the thread, I did not really find Claxon's response to be arrogant. In fact, in his original post he went out of his way to clarify that he was talking about his opinion and his house rules.

He even made a post stating flat-out that the continued discussion wasn't really constructive because he realized that they were his house rules and not RAW\RAI.

As to the word 'amicably' somehow being undignified - huh? He asked DrDeth if they could agree to disagree on friendly terms. Heck, it was so clearly a sincere attempt to agree to disagree that someone made the obligatory "Wait, you can't part ways on a friendly note on the INTERNET!" joke.

(And just to point out, DrDeth favorited that post. I'd have to take that to mean that he agreed to disagree amicably...)

Thanks for understanding Xaratherus.

I'm not going to defend myself any further for anything in this thread. I've already detracted enough from the original purpose, so I apologize for that and wont waste any more words doing so.


Claxon wrote:
I'm not going to defend myself any further for anything in this thread.

Please, in future, try and at least show the courtesy of acknowledging a reply after having asked for one yourself. Making the (albeit small) effort of replying only to find the person asking for the reply having already left the conversation is unpleasant, And I personally find that rude.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Has this thread devolved to a series of personal sniping?


For some reason, yes. Oddly enough, evidence seems to suggest that the main person with a horse in this race (DrDeth) probably did agree to disagree. I could be wrong - his marking of aegrisomnia's (totally spot-on) post makes it seem that way though.


Xaratherus wrote:
For some reason, yes. Oddly enough, evidence seems to suggest that the main person with a horse in this race (DrDeth) probably did agree to disagree. I could be wrong - his marking of aegrisomnia's (totally spot-on) post makes it seem that way though.

In tone with your horse-race comparison I'd use the equally colorful comparison of the attitude towards letting dogs urinate in public places, regardless of involvement, some might be fine with it and others might not.

I also hope you realize your own (small) part in keeping this horse-snipping-race going way beyond what it should've


Diekssus wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:
For some reason, yes. Oddly enough, evidence seems to suggest that the main person with a horse in this race (DrDeth) probably did agree to disagree. I could be wrong - his marking of aegrisomnia's (totally spot-on) post makes it seem that way though.

In tone with your horse-race comparison I'd use the equally colorful comparison of the attitude towards letting dogs urinate in public places, regardless of involvement, some might be fine with it and others might not.

I also hope you realize your own (small) part in keeping this horse-snipping-race going way beyond what it should've

Yup. My involvement rather pales in comparison to your part in it, though. Have a good night.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Suthainn wrote:

Taking Ross's suggestion to the example RD gives it's easy to see how a master manipulator with a high bluff can get around it so long as the NPC gives them a chance to speak. It's all about crafting a lie that they *might* believe and giving them every reason to want to act on that information, a high enough Bluff skill simply encapsulates that the argument you make is convincing enough to grab their attention and make them question.

Captain: Don't believe a word Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar says, it is ALL lies, every word he speaks! He is NOT to be allowed past.

Guard: Sir, Yes Sir!

A few hours later...

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: Why hello there guardsman!

Guard: HA! My Captain warned me about you, I know you'll lie to me so begone!

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: Hmm... okay. But I'd just like you to know I am not currently, and never have been great friends with your Captain.

Guard: Err...

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: In fact, he did not EXPRESSLY send me here to keep you occupied whilst he fornicates with your wife.

Guard: Wait a minute...

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: They are definitely not going at it like rabbits, in your bed RIGHT NOW.

Guard: THAT BASTARD! /runs home.

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: Dum de dum de dum. /heads on past.

So Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar also has long range telepathic abilities and knows that the Captain SPECIFICALLY stated that he ALWAYS lies?


Spastic Puma wrote:
Diekssus wrote:
seebs wrote:


So imagine the bard says "You are currently on fire." with intent to deceive the listener.

What now? "Obviously impossible" is a +20 modifier to sense motive. That doesn't even come close to solving the problem. The listener clearly believes the bard... But that's ridiculous.

Its not, not really, I mean in the real world, a priest with at most +1 bluff was able to convince massive amounts of people that they should kill for the god that demands "thou shall not kill" with the penalty of eternal damnation......

The guy believes he's on fire.

Maybe for a second. But as soon as he looks down and realizes he is not, in fact, on fire, that's the end of that.

One word: Jonestown.

Another word: Waco.

Another couple words: Nazi Germany.

How about this word: Evangelicals.

Charismatic people have gotten previously sane individuals (and mobs) to go along with, and believe things that all logic and even their very own eyes, tell them is patently untrue. Right here in the real world.

Silver Crusade

A few thoughts:

1. It is a game where we often take on roles we couldn't do in real life but that doesn't mean that everyone can pull off every role. For example, if you want to play a brilliant tactician, you can take a "tactician" archetype, but your character won't act in a tactically brilliant manner if you have trouble understanding why d12 is better than d8 and still can't understand the flanking rules after ten years of playing third edition and variants. Likewise, you can play a skilled social character, but if your game uses skills in a more detailed manner than "Diplomacy check, DC 35, they let me through" you will need some degree of actual social understanding to make the character effective. The game is abstract enough that you don't actually need to be, James Bond, Neil Caffrey (White Collar) or Patrick Jane (The Mentalist) to pull off a character like them, but you do need to think quickly enough on your feet to know what they would do.

Some people lack the tactical skills to play brilliant tacticians. Other people lack the ability to play dynamic social characters.

2. To the original point, others have pointed out useful modifiers for attitude and the inherent or subjective believability of the bluff. These are useful, but it is also important to consider what success means. I do not believe that success means that you automatically get what you want. In real life, there are lots of convincing liars. The institutions that employ and cater to these liars tend to rely on rules and verifications in order to avoid being suckered by the liars. For example, if you walk into a bank, tell them you make $120,000 per year and want a loan to buy a great house which is worth $300,000, they don't particularly care how convincing you are. They're not going to take your word for it. (At least not anymore). They're going to want documentation: copies of your tax returns, W2s, paystubs and bank statements. You could still bluff your way through, but you would need to have some good forgeries too.

So, let's look at a couple examples.

If the PC Bard is trying to fleece a local warrior by selling him a fake magic weapon, I would not run that as simply "make a bluff check. DC 40? OK here's your 40,000 gp." The bluff check would be necessary to not give the game away when the bard made his pitch, but any warrior who has enough money to be worth stealing (if the NPC warrior dumped Wis and is the kind of character who is easy to steal from, he probably doesn't have much money left) is going to be cautious. He'll look at the weapon. If it's not masterwork quality, then he's not buying it. However it probably is masterwork. He'll probably get a wizard to identify it for him to make sure that it is what the PC says it is. If he's dropping 40,000gp, he'll probably get the wizard to dispel the sword a few times first just in case the bard is trying to fake it with Nystul's magic aura. He'll test it by using the command word to see if the flaming property activates. Etc.

If the NPC is a guard at the gate, and discipline is lax and the command structure is incompetent, maybe he'll just let you through because you quickly convince him you have important business, but he'll probably ask to see your pass. Since you don't have one, you'll have to bluff again and when you succeed, he might, in a particularly orderly castle, call the sergeant to find out how to deal with someone who forgot his pass. The sergeant would try to look you up on a list or test to see if you know the password.

If the NPC has been told "PC X is a liar, don't believe anything he says," the reaction is going to depend very heavily on the NPC's alignment/personality and role. If the PC is a prisoner and the NPC is a guard, the NPC might decide that he does believe that the PC is really the King and that the king who gave him the orders is an evil doppleganger, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he'll let the PC out of prison. If he's a good, lawful type, he might care that the PC is probably the rightful king but remember that there are lots of good liars out there, so he goes to get the nearest cleric/inquisitor to cast discern lies or other divinations to confirm the truth before he lets the PC go.

Silver Crusade

For shame for all this talk of how to lie effectively! There are two things that Reiji Nakami hates more than anything--lies, evil, and lies!


Xaratherus wrote:


(And just to point out, DrDeth favorited that post. I'd have to take that to mean that he agreed to disagree amicably...)

Right.


On whether you should have them RP it out I say yes along with the roll and give a +/- circumstance for the argument they make. It doesn't have to be a brilliant speech, just more than "I lie". As people get more comfortable they get more into their roleplaying rhythm and it improves the game for everyone. It's a roleplaying game, not monopoly. You don't roll 3 dice and say "I kill the bad guy". You have to make maneuvers and decisions.

As for bluff, let me point out how flawed it is simply by the fact that I'm currently running a character that can get an auto result on bluff of a 95. Yes. a 95. At 8th level. No -5 or -20, or -50 is going to stop me from beating the roll if I really want to.

If I was a DM against a strong lying player (hope my DM isn't out there!) there would be several things to consider.

Even if the person believes you, does he care about your lie? I'm sure Dexter Morgan (from Dexter) believed his victims when they said they could pay him a lot, but didn't care about it whether it was true or not. Even if they believe you, does it motivate them to do what you want?

People believe their eyes first. You can't go up to someone and tell them they are on fire when all of their sensory information tells them otherwise. You might get a "made ya look!" but that's about it. You need to have a very good story or physical "proof" (disguises always help) and are unlikely to come to a gate in a tutu and your undies and convince anyone you are the King of Scotland.

People also have certain policies they will generally stick to. You aren't likely to go into the Federal Reserve and have them let you borrow some gold. You aren't likely to walk by in your hawaiian t-shirt and have a high-clearance guard let you into a top-secret nuclear facility. At some point you need things (like physical evidence) to convince them they are following procedure by letting you in. Like a fake badge and a disguise that makes you look 50, and knowing enough military lingo (or dropping specific Proper Nouns of people/places/things) to convince them you are who you say you are if you say you're a high command general on leave.

And as was mentioned, they have to listen to you.


MattR1986 wrote:

On whether you should have them RP it out I say yes along with the roll and give a +/- circumstance for the argument they make. It doesn't have to be a brilliant speech, just more than "I lie". As people get more comfortable they get more into their roleplaying rhythm and it improves the game for everyone. It's a roleplaying game, not monopoly. You don't roll 3 dice and say "I kill the bad guy". You have to make maneuvers and decisions.

As for bluff, let me point out how flawed it is simply by the fact that I'm currently running a character that can get an auto result on bluff of a 95. Yes. a 95. At 8th level. No -5 or -20, or -50 is going to stop me from beating the roll if I really want to.

There already exists a bonus for making up a reasonable lie. It's called "The lie is believable" and nets you a whopping +0 ;)

I'm very curious as to how you got your bluff so high, especially at that level. I assume glibness must be involved... care to share?

Liberty's Edge

Thymus Vulgaris wrote:
MattR1986 wrote:

As for bluff, let me point out how flawed it is simply by the fact that I'm currently running a character that can get an auto result on bluff of a 95. Yes. a 95. At 8th level. No -5 or -20, or -50 is going to stop me from beating the roll if I really want to.

There already exists a bonus for making up a reasonable lie. It's called "The lie is believable" and nets you a whopping +0 ;)

I'm very curious as to how you got your bluff so high, especially at that level. I assume glibness must be involved... care to share?

Yeah...that sounds seriously incorrect. I mean, the right kind of Bard can manage to add half their level, have Skill Focus, Deceitful, and, eh, call it Chr 26 counting a +4 Headband, plus a Circlet of Persuasion, +1 from a Trait, and +2 from a human racial trait, +1 from Voice of the Sibyl but that's only +35, +55 with Glibness. Which is still a whole lot, but at least +30 shy of that claim. There are a few other spells that add, but usually not on all Bluff checks. At level 10 that'll go up by +11...but we're still talking almost 20 shy.

Now, if he's Mythic, that's different (and quite doable), but well, he's also a Mythic Liar and probably should be able to convince people that the sky is actually a shade of green...


@deadmanwalking, to add some possible numbers: Aid another, +2, vision of madness, +4, now we're down to +14 shy ;)

Liberty's Edge

cmastah wrote:
@deadmanwalking, to add some possible numbers: Aid another, +2, vision of madness, +4, now we're down to +14 shy ;)

+24 if his level is as advertised, actually. :)


Deadmanwalking wrote:
cmastah wrote:
@deadmanwalking, to add some possible numbers: Aid another, +2, vision of madness, +4, now we're down to +14 shy ;)
+24 if his level is as advertised, actually. :)

Vision of Madness doesn't actually change anything, since our baseline is a bard with +1/2 bard level to bluff (presumably Street Performer). But let's keep aid another and call the one doing the aiding a Helpful halfling for another +2 on top of the regular aid another.

If we stick to the straight bard we can swap the human for kitsune and lose the +2 racial trait allowing us to instead spend the favored class bonus at every level for +1/2 on bluff checks to lie. At 8th level this'll give the kitsune bard +2 more bluff than the human, and +3 more at level 10. Then I suppose we can throw in Heroism combined with Moment of Greatness for +2 each.

Now we should be 20 short at level 8 and just 9 short at level 10, as far as I can tell.

EDIT: You know what we don't have yet? Competence bonuses. Let's go hunt down some competence bonuses to bluff.

EDIT EDIT: Helpful halfling is a Cleric at the same level with the glory domain. Touch of Glory reduces us to +12 missing at 8th level, and we've now succesfully surpassed it with +1 at level 10. (But I think MattR1986 meant without help).

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Swap Circlet of Persuasion with Mask of Stony Demeanor for a net gain of +7 bluff to lie, or keep the Circlet and add a Mulberry Pentacle for +5.

Liberty's Edge

Thymus Vulgaris wrote:

EDIT: You know what we don't have yet? Competence bonuses. Let's go hunt down some competence bonuses to bluff.

EDIT EDIT: Helpful halfling is a Cleric at the same level with the glory domain. Touch of Glory reduces us to +12 missing at 8th level, and we've now succesfully surpassed it with +1 at level 10. (But I think MattR1986 meant without help).

The Circlet of Persuasion is a Competence bonus, actually.

Hmmm. I forgot about Glory temporarily. There's probably some way to get that on top of stuff without an ally. One level of Infiltrator Inquisitor with the Conversion Inquisition might do better with double Wisdom (instead of Charisma) to Bluff, then 7 levels of Glory-possessing Cleric. That drops the +4 from Bard levels, but adds +15 from Glory and Wisdom, for +11 over the build offered. He loses personal access to Glibness, though...so I dunno if that works.

Thymus Vulgaris wrote:
EDIT EDIT EDIT: Swap Circlet of Persuasion with Mask of Stony Demeanor for a net gain of +7 bluff to lie, or keep the Circlet and add a Mulberry Pentacle for +5.

Oh yeah, that's definitely a help.


Ravingdork wrote:
Suthainn wrote:

Taking Ross's suggestion to the example RD gives it's easy to see how a master manipulator with a high bluff can get around it so long as the NPC gives them a chance to speak. It's all about crafting a lie that they *might* believe and giving them every reason to want to act on that information, a high enough Bluff skill simply encapsulates that the argument you make is convincing enough to grab their attention and make them question.

Captain: Don't believe a word Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar says, it is ALL lies, every word he speaks! He is NOT to be allowed past.

Guard: Sir, Yes Sir!

A few hours later...

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: Why hello there guardsman!

Guard: HA! My Captain warned me about you, I know you'll lie to me so begone!

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: Hmm... okay. But I'd just like you to know I am not currently, and never have been great friends with your Captain.

Guard: Err...

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: In fact, he did not EXPRESSLY send me here to keep you occupied whilst he fornicates with your wife.

Guard: Wait a minute...

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: They are definitely not going at it like rabbits, in your bed RIGHT NOW.

Guard: THAT BASTARD! /runs home.

Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar: Dum de dum de dum. /heads on past.

So Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar also has long range telepathic abilities and knows that the Captain SPECIFICALLY stated that he ALWAYS lies?

The guard said that the captain warned him about Bongo and that he expects Bongo will lie to him, so it's fair for Bongo to assume that the Captain warned that he was a liar. Bongo then uses that to craft a lie that casts the Captain's warning in a bad light. It's pretty much the turn around a good Face should be capable of pulling.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
The Circlet of Persuasion is a Competence bonus, actually.

Oh, didn't see that. Scratch the possibility of adding a Mulberry Pentacle on top of the Circlet of Persuasion, then.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Hmmm. I forgot about Glory temporarily. There's probably some way to get that on top of stuff without an ally. One level of Infiltrator Inquisitor with the Conversion Inquisition might do better with double Wisdom (instead of Charisma) to Bluff, then 7 levels of Glory-possessing Cleric. That drops the +4 from Bard levels, but adds +15 from Glory and Wisdom, for +11 over the build offered. He loses personal access to Glibness, though...so I dunno if that works.

We actually lose another +4 from the bard's favored class bonus, but now we can go back to the human with a +2 racial bonus on bluff. Glibness can be fixed with Bracers of the Glib Entertainer.

EDIT: If we can still keep up a positive charisma modifier, we still get to add that to bluff.

Liberty's Edge

I think that's a total of +53, +73 with Glibness, an extra +4 with Aid Another stuff. So -8 to -12 from what he'd need to get 95 taking 10. And a hideously specific build, to boot.

Thymus Vulgaris wrote:
EDIT: If we can still keep up a positive charisma modifier, we still get to add that to bluff.

No, actually. The Conversion Inquisition replaces Charisma with Wisdom.


The kitsune street performer on its own is at +48 before glibness, +68 after, and +80 with his halfling cleric friend's help. That leaves just +5 to be desired when taking 10.

Still hideously specific, yes.

Deadmanwalking wrote:
No, actually. The Conversion Inquisition replaces Charisma with Wisdom.

Okay, I get it. You are of course right, I just sort of mentally skipped that part.


How about we take the infiltrator1/cleric7 and give him madness domain instead of glory? This would dump him from +73 (+53) to +65 (no heroism), but now he can use his already sky-high bluff* to convince the halfling cleric8 (who does have the glory domain and heroism subdomain) to help him out with aid another, heroism and touch of glory, which brings him back up to +81, just slightly ahead of the bard.

*Because how else is a cleric of Lamashtu going to get the help of a cleric of Iomedae or Sarenrae ;)


Thymus Vulgaris wrote:


*Because how else is a cleric of Lamashtu going to get the help of a cleric of Iomedae or Sarenrae ;)

Tell them he/she needs their help to take down a rovagug-ian/daemon-worshipping cult, heck, that's a diplomacy check with a +5 bonus o.O (I would so jump on that bandwagon, those guys are the greater evil +5)


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Fraust wrote:
DrDeth...has nothing to do with being an introvert in my opinion, and everything to do with not being able to run the character they wrote up. If someone isn't there to engage they're a problem in my opinion.

I am sort of wondering if you fully understand the concept of "introvert".

The key here is: Some players may want very much to play the game, and engage, but genuinely have no discernable ability to come up with plausible bluffs, or otherwise "roleplay" their bluff and diplomacy.

It is not obvious to me that it is any more reasonable to demand that someone with inherently weak social processing ought to roleplay out their bluff attempts than to demand that someone whose arm is in a cast ought to roleplay out their swings of a two-handed sword.

The reason there's a Bluff skill is so that players who do not personally have the knack can nonetheless run characters who do.

The issue here is not that the introvert "isn't there to engage", it's that what "engaged" looks like for them is totally unlike the thing you decided in advance is the only acceptable form of engagement.


seebs wrote:
Fraust wrote:
DrDeth...has nothing to do with being an introvert in my opinion, and everything to do with not being able to run the character they wrote up. If someone isn't there to engage they're a problem in my opinion.

I am sort of wondering if you fully understand the concept of "introvert".

The key here is: Some players may want very much to play the game, and engage, but genuinely have no discernable ability to come up with plausible bluffs, or otherwise "roleplay" their bluff and diplomacy.

It is not obvious to me that it is any more reasonable to demand that someone with inherently weak social processing ought to roleplay out their bluff attempts than to demand that someone whose arm is in a cast ought to roleplay out their swings of a two-handed sword.

The reason there's a Bluff skill is so that players who do not personally have the knack can nonetheless run characters who do.

The issue here is not that the introvert "isn't there to engage", it's that what "engaged" looks like for them is totally unlike the thing you decided in advance is the only acceptable form of engagement.

Well, obviously you have to play a character with the exact same mental and social attributes as yourself, or worse than your own. If you strive to play a character that's better at any of these things than yourself, you're obviously a power gamer who won't even try to be part of the game world and just wants to roll dice to solve everything instead of thinking exactly like one with your character's mental stats, which you really should be able to do since they cannot exceed your own.

So never put more than 12 into those mental stats (who do you think you are, Einstein?) and buff that strength so you can be the combat monster your spindly nerd arms won't allow you to be IRL!

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Tobias wrote:


The guard said that the captain warned him about Bongo and that he expects Bongo will lie to him, so it's fair for Bongo to assume that the Captain warned that he was a liar. Bongo then uses that to craft a lie that casts the Captain's warning in a bad light. It's pretty much the turn around a good Face should be capable of pulling.

Absolutely. As long as the guardsman is human, and not an automaton, and he is processing Bongo's words, there is some lie, series of lies, or lies combined with persuasion (Diplomacy) that will get him to let Bongo pass.

For instance:

Bongo: Guard! Guard! You must let me pass, I have urgent news for the Duke!

Guard: The Captain said to let no one pass, no matter what they said! You will have to wait until morning, or take it up with the Captain.

Bongo: Of course he did! He's the one I have to warn the Duke about! He's a traitor!

Bluff is a fun skill because it synergizes so well with other skills. For instance, the above lie is more believable (and has a lower DC) if Bongo shows up in a Royal Messenger uniform (Disguise), or with forged credentials (Linguistics).

Even if the guard stonewalls him and tries to pull a 'British Guard' immobility, the fact of the matter is even those guards have SOMEONE they let pass. It certainly makes it harder, since you can't gauge success or incorporate responses back into your lies. But it isn't impossible. Claim to be a Prince. Appeal to their duty (or just threaten them) with the 'dire consequences' that could happen if they don't let you pass. Give them a fake message from their superior to get them to physically go somewhere else.

Dark Archive

Ravingdork wrote:


So Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar also has long range telepathic abilities and knows that the Captain SPECIFICALLY stated that he ALWAYS lies?

Maybe Bongo has been scrying the Captain to know when he leaves and can try and sneak past, or perhaps he favours clairvoyance/clairaudience, in fact maybe he disguised himself as a servant and overheard, perhaps he went to the trouble of bribing a guard to tell him what orders the Captain left, maybe he knows the Captain from previous encounters and thus knows his modus operandi, who knows, he IS however a ridiculously good liar and so I suspect asking him will be of little use!

Also, don't play poker with him.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Ravingdork wrote:
So Bongo the Ridiculously Good Liar also has long range telepathic abilities and knows that the Captain SPECIFICALLY stated that he ALWAYS lies?

No, because real people don't view the world as a logical negation. 'Bob always lies' can't be literally true, because that would mean Bob can talk his way past the guard by saying 'This statement is a lie.' and the guard's head implodes as he tries to reason out the paradox.

It doesn't matter if the Captain said 'Bongo the Liar is in town, keep an eye out.', 'Bongo the Liar is after the Duke. Keep him out.', or just 'Bongo the Liar is an unscrupulous weasel. Do not trust him.' All Bongo has to do is cast doubt on the Captain's truthfulness, or even just insist that while he's generally a liar, this time he's telling the truth. He realizes the parable about the boy who cries wolf, but that doesn't mean the boy still deserves to die.

Does it stretch the bounds of belief that a skilled liar can talk themselves past the Secret Service? Maybe, even though Social Engineering is frightfully effective at getting people access to things they shouldn't. But also, anyone over 5th level is essentially a superhero. And a potion of glibness is a potent magic item on par with casting charm person on the target. It should be able to accomplish a lot.


You guys are trying too hard to get to my number. I believe this is the last (or near the last) version I had of it:
LINK

Doesn't include items like my Ring of mind-shielding, or my necklace of bluff +13 which gets it the magic number. Used the standard item creation rules, so no sneaky work-arounds. I considered the Mask of Stony Demeanor but considered it kind of lame to get that +10 for so cheap with such a minimal drawback so I paid the full enchilada for it. That is basically the highest we've gotten with bluff using PRD only (and not spending all your cash on an item). You could swap a thing here or there to technically get a point or two higher at 8th, but in the long run it all comes out the same.

I always disagree with this "what if they're a wallflower" argument. They obviously are social enough to have left their house and come to a social event where they have to talk and interact for 4 hours weekly. What if making them roll dice gives them anxiety, maybe you should give them auto 10s instead? Having them actually speak as their character and describe what he/she is doing is for many a vital part of playing a role playing game. Its time to stop pitying people and play the game as most intend it to be played. It's like if there's a quiet kid in class and the teacher never calls on him because he's quiet. She is not helping the kid. Should she humiliate him and single him out? No. But giving special treatment in feeling sorry for the child is just enabling the behavior that is not helping him succeed.

I also have people with 9 charisma scores roll bluff/diplomacy and tell me what they're saying when it applies to the situation. No free charisma-dump rides at this theme park.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

MattR1986 wrote:
or my necklace of bluff +13 which gets it the magic number. Used the standard item creation rules, so no sneaky work-arounds.

Those competence bonus items generally cap at +5. Going beyond that is a sneaky work-around. Not saying such an item can't exist, just that the pricing formula of 100 * Bonus^2 is no longer accurate.


Eh, 16,900 gold for a necklace that only grants you a +13 to Bluff? That's not too bad. You could pick up a +2 INT headband with Bluff as a skill and get a rough equivalent (once you hit 13th level).


Just on a very fast search: ELIXIR OF HIDING +10, ELIXIR OF SWIMMING, Tumbling/Vision, robes of eyes, salve of slipperyness.

That's with a quick search for +10 in the CRB wondrous items.

It's following their formula straight up. I even mentioned a mere 500 gp item (Mask of Stony Demeaner) that gives a +10 to bluff for the mere drawback of you get a -5 on secret messages. Even if you took 3 away from me for the "norm" max of +10 that still gives me a 92.


Also, don't the Int headbands have to be for an intelligence or knowledge skill???

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Xaratherus wrote:
Eh, 16,900 gold for a necklace that only grants you a +13 to Bluff? That's not too bad. You could pick up a +2 INT headband with Bluff as a skill and get a rough equivalent (once you hit 13th level).

The headband wound't stack with ranks you already have: It is good for someone who didn't already know how to lie, but it can't double an existing 13th level character's bonus.

To a character based on using Bluff, +13 Bluff is way better than the +4 armor they could have bought instead.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

MattR1986 wrote:

Just on a very fast search: ELIXIR OF HIDING +10, ELIXIR OF SWIMMING, Tumbling/Vision, robes of eyes, salve of slipperyness.

That's with a quick search for +10 in the CRB wondrous items.

It's following their formula straight up. I even mentioned a mere 500 gp item (Mask of Stony Demeaner) that gives a +10 to bluff for the mere drawback of you get a -5 on secret messages. Even if you took 3 away from me for the "norm" max of +10 that still gives me a 92.

The elixirs and salve are single-use items. The robe is an outlier, but Perception does not degenerate the same way Bluff or Diplomacy does. As I said, the item isn't impossible, but pricing it is harder than you might think.

This gets discussed every RPG Superstar when pricing comes up: Pricing magic items is as much art as a science, and the tables in the Core Rulebook are guidelines, not rules. When you create a new magic item, you can start with the table, but ultimately you need to consider what other items are available at the same price and what it is worth to various types of characters.

If your GM approved the +13 Bluff item, that's great, in your game. But it isn't a generally applicable principle.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

MattR1986 wrote:
Also, don't the Int headbands have to be for an intelligence or knowledge skill???

By default/random chance it is a Knowledge skill, but can be any skill if hte creator so chooses.


My thought is Bluff and Diplomacy can be the most powerful stats in the game or the most worthless in the game. It really depends on your DM. It's been mentioned before, but with D&D being such a combat-oriented game usually, there is a reason why skills come so cheap. You get ranks every time regardless of class. The same doesn't apply for AC, Saves or BaB.

A skill item costs x^2*100
A magic weapon costs x^2*2000

That's saying something when something costs 20x more.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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Suthainn wrote:
Also, don't play poker with him.

Good advice. But Bongo will just tell you he's actually terrible at poker.


And again, if I didn't use item creation there's a perfectly legal +10 item for HALF of the regular cost, so I ask, which is lamer?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

MattR1986 wrote:
And again, if I didn't use item creation there's a perfectly legal +10 item for HALF of the regular cost, so I ask, which is lamer?

Oh, definitely the mask. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say the designer was overly fixated on the pre-requisite spell innocence, which also provides a +10 Bluff bonus, but only to say 'I didn't do it', which is a whole different kettle of fish than lying in general.

But we're getting off topic, since the question of the thread was 'Can you lie to someone who has been warned not to listen to you?'. My answer is 'Yes, and the existing rules give us some guidance on the DC adjustments.' Exactly how high you can get a Bluff check is beside the point.


Ha, that's nothing! My current character's build has a +112 on bluff checks AND is a Dwarf!

-rolls-


We are venturing off topic, but just to add one more thing is that it helps reinforce the importance of combat idea that they tack off half the price when then the feint option is reduced to +5 (with the measly secret message to -5). And I don't know a DM that wouldn't take this option when A) I don't imp. feint and B) with that extra cash you could get a +4 cha item and with now a bluff +12 instead of +13, have +2 to all cha checks, extra spells, higher DCs etc. Personally I think the mask is stupid because A) masks are lame, and B) it seems to be counter-intuitive to bluffing that you have a "stony demeanor" and don't show emotion. Part of lying involves emotion unless you were just using it to play poker.

As for lying to someone who was warned not to listen to you again I refer to what I said earlier.

Even if they believe you, do they care? Are they more scared of their captain than whatever consequence you just put forward? There is a saying in a certain branch that goes "Guard your post from flank to flank and take no s*** from any rank." Meaning it doesn't care who you are, your orders to guard this post and follow procedure come first. Thus, it may depend on the personality of the guard. Are they flimsy and weak? Are they very rigid to their job and regulations? If you come with a great bluff of "If you don't let me through I'm going to get General so and so down here on your ass!", let's say they believe you or are pretty sure you are telling the truth. Which is it worth to be wrong on? Getting chewed out by a general when you come back with him, or the Captain who is going to beat you for not following proper procedure, especially if you were wrong about this person?


Spastic Puma wrote:

Ha, that's nothing! My current character's build has a +112 on bluff checks AND is a Dwarf!

-rolls-

prove it.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Some skills work better when the world is a little bit less fleshed out, giving you some wiggle room. Does the Guard fear his Captain or the General more? Does he have personal loyalty to the Duke? What about his family? How plausible is an armed attack on the building? Is anyone authorized to come down the passage, or is the guard just backup for a lock? One could say all of these things affect the DC of the Bluff check, but I prefer to think that they are the things that fed into the die roll.

Picking the wrong lie is just failing the Bluff check. Like trying to convince the guard that the Captain is having sex with his wife when he isn't married. Or he's gay. Your smooth talker with the +30 to Bluff failed his check? He could have still been a perfect performer, but of the wrong lie. He succeeded on the same lie? Maybe the target already had jealousy issues.

Picking the right lie, and telling it convincingly, means you either convinced them to abandon their post (because someone is attacking the other side of the building, the Captain is having sex with his wife, whatever), or that the consequences of not letting you pass are worse than the consequences of letting you pass ("You need to let me by right now or the Duke is going to die!").

There is not a one-size-fits-all Bluff for this type of situation. The difference is that someone with a high Bluff bonus has a better chance than me of finding it. I'm just demonstrating that such a thing exists.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

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MattR1986 wrote:
Spastic Puma wrote:

Ha, that's nothing! My current character's build has a +112 on bluff checks AND is a Dwarf!

-rolls-

prove it.

I think you failed your Sense Motive.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ross Byers wrote:
And a potion of glibness is a potent magic item on par with casting charm person on the target. It should be able to accomplish a lot.

There's no such thing as potions of glibness, since glibness is a personal range spell, and thus ineligible for potion use.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Ravingdork wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
And a potion of glibness is a potent magic item on par with casting charm person on the target. It should be able to accomplish a lot.
There's no such thing as potions of glibness, since glibness is a personal range spell, and thus ineligible for potion use.

You're right. What I should have said was 'Glibness is a third level spell. This puts it on par with charm monster for effectiveness. It exactly counters out the penalty for impossible lies. It is allowed to talk you past things that are hard to lie to.'

Basically, that spell lets an average liar convince a commoner that he's actually a hummingbird. It should let a skilled liar convince a wary guard that he should be let past. It should let a spectacularly skilled liar convince that same guard that he's a hummingbird.

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