I built a ninja/sorc/ arcain trickster
After playing I tried to use scorching ray within 30 foot range and add sneak attack and I was told that it dosn't work that way. I always assumed that sneak attack worked with ray spells within 30 feet (so long as they are flat footed) am I wrong?
You are not wrong. Provided the target qualifies for a sneak attack (such as flat-footed) and you are within 30 feet you may make a sneak attack with any spell that does damage and has an attack roll.
Edit: Nefreet is correct, only one scorching ray will get the sneak attack damage.
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after bring this to the DMs attention, they house ruled it and said spells cant have sneak attack untill level 10 in arcain trickster.
Thank you for your input but it looks like I wont be playing this class any time soon.
Keyafay, I am curious what your GM's logic was? Spells are just another attack form such as arrows. You can even take weapon feats (such as Weapon Focus "Ray") for spells.
I have to wonder if he isn't reading more into the Surprise Spells ability. It is designed to grant sneak attack damage to spells that do not have an attack roll. Normally spells without an attack roll cannot have sneak attack damage added (you need spells with an attack roll).
Even the FAQ spells this out (pun intended).
What's your bloodline(s)? That could have a lot to do with his ruling...
I took the shadow bloodline.
I tried to make my point but he said that I am talking to the wrong person, as the DM its his rule and he doesn’t care otherwise if I feel different or not.
His logic was, to my understanding, that it dosn't work that way and that now that it is a house rule it cant be overwriten. I tried to make my point and all I got was, "No, too bad, we aren't doing that." I was shut out without a voice.
I am upset but in the end I just won’t play this class than. I have plenty other character concepts. I will just play it with a different game group.
Sounds like your GM is a bit of a jerk.
keyafay, sorry to hear that. Perhaps your GM should visit the boards to improve his understanding of the rules. :)
There are rules I change for various reasons but I usually put it to the group rather than making it an arbitrary decision. Additionally, I consider game balance and frankly, using a ranged touch attack spell to make a sneak attack is sub-par not superior. You are sacrificing multiple sneak attack opportunities for a single sneak attack with a spell.
I have a friend who is playing an official bi-monthly pathfinder society campaign. He is looking for some WRITTEN concrete proof that sneak attack can be used with spells. Any help here? Please list source book and page#.
I have a friend who is playing an official bi-monthly pathfinder society campaign. He is looking for some WRITTEN concrete proof that sneak attack can be used with spells. Any help here? Please list source book and page#.
You can check out this FAQ. It specifically discusses the ability to make sneak attacks with spells.
Other than that, here's the language for Sneak Attacks:
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
All it mentions is "attacks".
Here is a discussion of touch spells in combat:
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack as long as the spell deals damage. Your opponent's AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
To succeed, you make "an attack".
If what you are doing constitutes an attack, you can sneak with it so long as the other requirements for sneak attack are met.
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I am wondering what the GMs reasons are.
There are circumstances where I also would not allow sneak attack with a spell. For example, if a spell has a verbal component, a target within 30 feet will likely hear the caster. If that results in the target being aware of where the caster is, the surprise round would not occur. The target would also not be flat-footed if he wins initiative.
I could be wrong on how I interpret the rules. If I am, please point out where I am incorrect.
RedDogMT, yup, you are wrong. :)
Procedure for surprise rounds:
Determine awareness (often via perception checks). If some are aware and others are not a surprise round occurs.
Those who are aware roll initiative.
After the surprise round you roll initiative if you have not yet done so.
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware. Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Additionally, you are flat-footed until you act.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
The end result of these two rules is that not only can you be caught by surprise you are also going to be flat-footed for potentially two rounds (surprise round and first regular round).
Example:
Spellcasting Rogue character is hidden (Stealth check is 25) when a Fighter walks into the room. They are 20 feet apart.
Both roll perception checks.
The DC for the Rogue is 2 (0+distance modifier).
The DC for the Fighter 27 (the Rogue's Stealth check+distance modifier).
The Rogue succeeds while the Fighter fails, there is now a surprise round.
Surprise round:
The Rogue rolls initiative and gets a 15.
The Rogue casts a (verbal) spell with an attack roll and adds sneak attack damage (target is flat-footed). Note: it doesn't matter that this was a verbal spell, the fighter is flat-footed.
Round 1 (first full round of actions) begins:
The Fighter rolls initiative and gets a 13, poor fighter.
The Rogue uses his Quick Runner's Shirt, moves up to the poor fighter and hits him with a TWF full-attack adding his sneak attack damage to each attack (because the Fighter is still flat-footed). Assuming both attacks hit the Fighter may be unconscious and bleeding to death. Alternately, the Rogue could have used a spell again.
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Hi Guass. I think that we are actually on the same page...I was only referring to the situation/circumstance the OP put forward. I just didn't comment on the rest of the possibilities that could occur when initiative is rolled.
However, I do appreciate you taking the time to try and set me straight. :)
Ahhh, ok RedDogMT. :)