(Now that I got your attention...)
What was the thought process of making Asmodeus a deity, instead of a regular Archdevil? To second that, why no demon as a deity, to serve as his sworn enemy, since demons and devils are always at each others' throats?
Not saying that it's a must-have, but I'm curious to know why an Archdevil was chosen to be converted into a deity, especially since he was often depicted as an Archdevil, complete with a statistic block... and a hellishly high CR (pun totally intended).
As David pointed out, Lamashtu is a demon goddess. So the Abyss is covered.
Daemons are the ones left out, unless you count the fifth horseman.
Well, the reason is that Pathfinder isn't D&D. This means that they can't use a lot of things that are property of WotC. This would include Asmodeus' statblock as an archdevil and the bloodwars.
Asmodeus is referred as an Archdevil that ascended. After seeing several Demon Lords being statted, I was just wandering why Asmodeus wasn't planned as a regular Archdevil, just like Lamashtu wasn't planned as a regular Demon Lord.
Also, Lamashtu is a demonic deity. Check your facts.
Yeah, I forgot that part... I stand corrected then.
So there can be a true god in each of the lower planes.
Asmodius (hell)
The 5th horseman (abbadon)
Lementasu (abyss)
So there can be a true god in each of the lower planes.
Asmodius (hell)
The 5th horseman (abbadon)
Lementasu (abyss)
There's a 5th Horseman? Considering that all 4 Horsemen can be worshipped, wouldn't that make them a collective deity?
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Also, other bad premise: in Pathfinder, devils and demons are not always at each other's throats. The Blood War is a thing of D&D. In Pathfinder, they're all evil, different motifs and MOs, but not trying to destroy each other constantly.
Also, other bad premise: in Pathfinder, devils and demons are not always at each other's throats. The Blood War is a thing of D&D. In Pathfinder, they're all evil, different motifs and MOs, but not trying to destroy each other constantly.
Oh I see.
(I really need to read and re-read the Golarion books I bought; I keep taking several elements from D&D for granted...)
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Also, other bad premise: in Pathfinder, devils and demons are not always at each other's throats. The Blood War is a thing of D&D. In Pathfinder, they're all evil, different motifs and MOs, but not trying to destroy each other constantly.Oh I see.
(I really need to read and re-read the Golarion books I bought; I keep taking several elements from D&D for granted...)
Well, the Blood War was kind of cool, granted :)
There's a 5th Horseman? Considering that all 4 Horsemen can be worshipped, wouldn't that make them a collective deity?So there can be a true god in each of the lower planes.
Asmodius (hell)
The 5th horseman (abbadon)
Lementasu (abyss)
The fifth is the horseman that doesn't respond to prayers, and is worshiped by the other 4.
No-one knows just how powerful it is.
Well, the Blood War was kind of cool, granted :)Also, other bad premise: in Pathfinder, devils and demons are not always at each other's throats. The Blood War is a thing of D&D. In Pathfinder, they're all evil, different motifs and MOs, but not trying to destroy each other constantly.Oh I see.
(I really need to read and re-read the Golarion books I bought; I keep taking several elements from D&D for granted...)
It goes beyond that. My players keep correcting about rules that changed from WotC to Pathfinder, not because I don't want to apply them, but because i didn't notice them and saw their modifications.
I would also posit that there is a precedent for Asmodeus transcending typical devilhood. Since the 2E "Guide to Hell" supplement, Asmodeus was a deity. I'm pretty sure he retained that status in 4E, though I'm a bit fuzzy where he fell in the 3E years. The canon was all Greyhawk (the big deifying promotion there went to Vecna), and I don't have my copy of the 3.5 "Fiendish Codex II" handy...
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I would also posit that there is a precedent for Asmodeus transcending typical devilhood. Since the 2E "Guide to Hell" supplement, Asmodeus was a deity. I'm pretty sure he retained that status in 4E, though I'm a bit fuzzy where he fell in the 3E years. The canon was all Greyhawk (the big deifying promotion there went to Vecna), and I don't have my copy of the 3.5 "Fiendish Codex II" handy...
Off the top of my head:
2e Planescape didn't define Asmodeus except as a big, incredibly powerful mystery for the most part that manipulated the other Lords of the 9 like chess pieces.
2e's 'Guide to Hell' presented him as a gigantic serpent that ate disbelief, didn't need worship, had the power of a greater deity, and was partially responsible for the creation of the multiverse along with Jazirian the coatl deity. This concept was never picked up in subsequent books except for the idea that he had a true form different from the avatar in Nessus, and that he fell from somewhere else.
3e MotP mentions the 2e GtH as a rumor, but largely sticks with the Planescape line and leaves mystery in place for DMs to flesh out as they choose.
3e BoVD largely does the same as the 3e MotP.
3e Fiendish Codex II presents a twist on previous material and defines Asmodeus as originally being a LN entity that fell to LE, with his followers becoming the first devils/baatezu (though it mentions that Baator/The Hells were already there when they fell, which fits in nicely with the 2e and Fiendish Codex I yugoloth creation mythos that had them and their own creators seeding the Abyss and Baator with the first Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians).
4e Asmodeus isn't the same entity as the 1e/2e/3e Asmodeus because 4e uses a completely different cosmology and different in-game history. I don't recall the specifics of his power level, but I think Asmo became a deity. 4e Asmo and his followers were originally angels that killed their patron deity.
I would also posit that there is a precedent for Asmodeus transcending typical devilhood. Since the 2E "Guide to Hell" supplement, Asmodeus was a deity. I'm pretty sure he retained that status in 4E, though I'm a bit fuzzy where he fell in the 3E years. The canon was all Greyhawk (the big deifying promotion there went to Vecna), and I don't have my copy of the 3.5 "Fiendish Codex II" handy...
In the 3.5 version of Eberron (i.e., the original version), Asmodeus isn't mentioned at all, and probably doesn't exist.
In the 4e version of Eberron, he was ret-coned in, and is apparently a full deity. Keith Baker said he really didn't like the change, but yea, it's there.
Also, the supposedly setting-neutral 3.0 MotP says that no one knows whether Asmodeus is an archdevil or a true deity.
Well, if we are just listing what Asmodeus is in different books. . .
In Kaballah Asmodeus is the Cambion son of the Israelite King David and a succubus
In other ancient writing he is a king of demons, then eventually one of the lords of the nine hells in medieval times where he is identified with the 2nd layer of hell and lust.
But in game terms there isn't that much separating an Archdevil and Deity-- just a few more thousand followers/supplicants to push him up into divinity. . .
After all demon lords/archdevils/ect are all just outsiders on the path to becoming deities.
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But in game terms there isn't that much separating an Archdevil and Deity-- just a few more thousand followers/supplicants to push him up into divinity. . .
Actually...in Golarion and thus Pathfinder by default, number of worshipers isn't what makes a deity more powerful. They simply aren't powered by belief.
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In the 4e version of Eberron, he was ret-coned in, and is apparently a full deity. Keith Baker said he really didn't like the change, but yea, it's there.
Wait... what?
Isn't one of the selling points of Eberron the mysterious nature of their deities? Like potentially they don't exist and everyone gets power from belief?
Way to screw that one up...
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Lessee here.
In 1E, Asmodeus is the archest arch-devil, and his stat block is in the first Monster Manual.
In 2E, TSR refused to even identify the name of the lord of Hell until the Guide to Hell came out near the end of 2E. As already noted above, the Guide to Hell portrayed him as a severely wounded overgod who had fallen to merely being a greater diety,
In 3E, Asmodeus received a stat block in either the Book of Vile Darkness or the Fiendish Codex II. I don't own the BoVD and my FCII is at a friend's house, so I can't check. IIRC, he wasn't an actual god (gods had their own rules in 3E, where a number were statted out), but he was still a complete bad-ass. I vaguely recall that, among other things, he had an at-will dominate monster with a duration of instantaneous. I.e., if you failed, he owned you forever.
In 4E, Asmodeus was the right-hand man of a god whose name was stricken after Asmodeus overthrew him. The god's last act transformed his realm into what's now known as Hell, and I believe bound Asmodeus to it in some way. Asmodeus reshaped the new Hell into the 9 realms we all know and love, and created devils to go forth and carry out his will. He was much better at combating the Primordials (and later, the demons) than his predecessor, so the other gods have grudgingly accepted the traitor as one of their own. Some gods in 4E, including Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, and Vecna, were statted out, but Asmodeus was not. Some of his archdevils, like Glasya, Geryon, and Dispater, were statted out in Dragon articles. (Minor note of disappointment - Glasya was an elite rather than a solo, making her relatively weak for an arch devil).
In Pathfinder, Asmodeus is a full-bore god, who may have been one of the major creators in the universe, who may have murdered his sibling and fellow creator Ihys (who, according to those legends, created Sarenrae and free will), and who definitely found an existing plane and completely reshaped it into what is now Hell.
Asmodeus's archdevils currently come in three categories - angels that followed him to Hell and were transformed (Dispater, Baalzebul, Mammon (though Mammon's complicated)), beings he created (Moloch, Belial, and the first devil, Mephistopheles), and a couple of outsiders he elevated (Barbatos and Geryon).
Being a god allows Asmodeus to operate on a scale that a "mere" archdevil could not, and firmly establishes him as the head of Hell's pecking order. As an archdevil, he'd have mechanical limits. As a true god, he doesn't have mechanical limits, granting significantly more leeway for plot purposes.
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So there can be a true god in each of the lower planes.
And that makes for a lot more sense than the older iterations of the game, where the Abyss and the Hells were ruled and dominated by demon lords and archdevils, who were strictly weaker than the various actual *gods* that lived in their planes, such as Tiamat (who was often portrayed as the bouncer at the door to Hell, keeping out the riff-raff, despite being an actual god of dragons), or Set, or various other LE gods, who, generally speaking, should have been running the place. Various CE gods, such as the beholder and yuan-ti gods, also got shoved into the Abyss, despite not being demon lords.
Same with various good gods. The Norse and Olympians kind of had their own upper planes, but the good Egyptian gods, like Bast, were kind of scattered around other pantheon-specific planes, like refugees kicked out of whatever 'heaven' they should have had. Ditto the elven pantheon, hanging out in Asgard, drinking mead and hoping no one notices how out of place they are.
Golarion still has elements of that. Urgathoa and Zyphus seem to be tucked away in Abaddon, like the old 'unwelcome guests' in the Hells and Abyss, in various D&D iterations.
Ultimately, I think it makes far more sense, in a game setting that has planes of existence dominated by powerful outsiders, and actual gods, that the gods would be the powerful outsiders that run said planes of existence, and not 'guests' of less powerful outsiders...
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or Set
Are you telling us you feel you should rule in hell?
or SetAre you telling us you feel you should rule in hell?
Set never ruled the Egyptian underworld, that would be Osiris.
This thread is a fail. There are two false statements in the OP.
This thread is a fail. There are two false statements in the OP.
Hey, cool your jets, would you?
1) I had completely forgotten that Lamashtu was a Demon deity, since she's not a well-known figure. We're not talking about a "popular" demon lord, across all versions of D&D, that ascended, but a brand-new lord created by Paizo themselves.
2) I'm coming from D&D 3.5, where Asmodeus was an archdevil, not a deity.
3) My question is as legit as any other. Paizo could totally have made Asmodeus an archdevil with a stat block, as they could have made Lamashtu a demon lord with a stat block. However, they didn't... and they didn't explain why. Not that they need to, but I'm just curious.
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Hey, cool your jets, would you?
I'd like to note that I think this is a totally reasonable request.
1) I had completely forgotten that Lamashtu was a Demon deity, since she's not a well-known figure. We're not talking about a "popular" demon lord, across all versions of D&D, that ascended, but a brand-new lord created by Paizo themselves.
That's not quite accurate on a couple of levels actually. First, she's a real-world mythological figure, and second she was in fact mentioned in D&D, though not gone into in any detail.
Still an understandable omission, mind you, but just FYI and for clarity.
2) I'm coming from D&D 3.5, where Asmodeus was an archdevil, not a deity.
True.
3) My question is as legit as any other. Paizo could totally have made Asmodeus an archdevil with a stat block, as they could have made Lamashtu a demon lord with a stat block. However, they didn't... and they didn't explain why. Not that they need to, but I'm just curious.
True enough. Though I think people in this thread have provided several reasonable answers. This in particular would also be a great question for the Ask James Jacobs thread, where you can probably find out the answer to something like this in some detail from the horse's mouth if you like.
In some ways the distinction was also actually kinda academic until Mythic came out recently, since they lacked the power-level necessary to stat out full Demon Lords or Archdevils (as opposed to nascent Demon Lords and Infernal Dukes, which were always stat-able).
Creative Director
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3) My question is as legit as any other. Paizo could totally have made Asmodeus an archdevil with a stat block, as they could have made Lamashtu a demon lord with a stat block. However, they didn't... and they didn't explain why. Not that they need to, but I'm just curious.
We wanted an example of several outsiders as full-on deities.
Asmodeus = deity devil
Lamashtu = deity demon
Sarenrae = deity angel
Rovagug = deity qlippoth
We chose Asmodeus because of ALL the devils in the game, he had that magic combination of being a real-world mythological name (and thus a character not protected as Wizards of the Coast intellectual property) AND because he had a decades-long legacy in the game of being the most powerful devil.
That's not quite accurate on a couple of levels actually. First, she's a real-world mythological figure, and second she was in fact mentioned in D&D, though not gone into in any detail.
Still an understandable omission, mind you, but just FYI and for clarity.
I just checked that she's a Mesopotamian goddess... but I don't recall seeing, or even reading about her in D&D 3.5. She was briefly mentionned in Dragon #392 in the Pazuzu article, written by James Jacobs, but never fully expanded in the actual 3.5 books.
If you mention her appearance in 4e, then I didn't notice it; I don't play 4e, so...)
True enough. Though I think people in this thread have provided several reasonable answers. This in particular would also be a great question for the Ask James Jacobs thread, where you can probably find out the answer to something like this in some detail from the horse's mouth if you like.
I actually posted here because it's more related to Golarion's setting than the general Pathfinder rules. I've seen several Golarion exclusive topics, including some of my owns, being moved here. Considering that Asmodeus is a Golarion deity, I thought it was wiser to post it here.
In some ways the distinction was also actually kinda academic until Mythic came out recently, since they lacked the power-level necessary to stat out full Demon Lords or Archdevils (as opposed to nascent Demon Lords and Infernal Dukes, which were always stat-able).
Funny you say that... because none of the Demon Lords have Mythic levels XD
3) My question is as legit as any other. Paizo could totally have made Asmodeus an archdevil with a stat block, as they could have made Lamashtu a demon lord with a stat block. However, they didn't... and they didn't explain why. Not that they need to, but I'm just curious.We wanted an example of several outsiders as full-on deities.
Asmodeus = deity devil
Lamashtu = deity demon
Sarenrae = deity angel
Rovagug = deity qlippothWe chose Asmodeus because of ALL the devils in the game, he had that magic combination of being a real-world mythological name (and thus a character not protected as Wizards of the Coast intellectual property) AND because he had a decades-long legacy in the game of being the most powerful devil.
Thanks for your time and the clarification, good sir ^_^
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Creative Director
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Funny you say that... because none of the Demon Lords have Mythic levels XD
That's not really the point. We COULD have built demigod stats long before we did Mythic Adventures, yes... but they'd still be in the CR 26+ range, and that meant that there wasn't really a huge point since they'd be too tough for anyone to actually take on for the most part. Once we built Mythic Adventures, we not only were justified in increasing the CR cap to monsters, but we actually knew what those more powerful characters were about and could design the monsters above CR 26 appropriately.
So while demigods don't have mythic ranks, we needed those rules to build them anyway. And they're mythic equivalent to a MR 10 creature, so while they don't have mythic levels, they do count as mythic for a lot of things.
Funny you say that... because none of the Demon Lords have Mythic levels XDThat's not really the point. We COULD have built demigod stats long before we did Mythic Adventures, yes... but they'd still be in the CR 26+ range, and that meant that there wasn't really a huge point since they'd be too tough for anyone to actually take on for the most part. Once we built Mythic Adventures, we not only were justified in increasing the CR cap to monsters, but we actually knew what those more powerful characters were about and could design the monsters above CR 26 appropriately.
So while demigods don't have mythic ranks, we needed those rules to build them anyway. And they're mythic equivalent to a MR 10 creature, so while they don't have mythic levels, they do count as mythic for a lot of things.
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Oh, yeah, sure... good point ^_^Well, at least you didn't make Asmodeus a huge snake like in Red Wall XD
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Also keep in mind the other Archdevils are also 'quasi gods'
Mechanically if you offer domains you are a deity/god in a setting. Thus Mephistopheles and co are all gods too.
The fact that Cheliax now venerates Asmodeus as the State religon also lifts his claim to fame. No other country (bar say Razmiran) can say the same (Sarenrae might come close but isnt there).
Out of every single deity in the multiverse, only Asmodeus can boast that he is the unquestioned ruler of an entire planar realm. How could he NOT be a true deity!?
Oh snap...
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Barbatos, the Lord of the First, the Bearded Lord
Dispater, the Lord of the Second, the First King
Mammon, the Lord of the Third, the Argent Prince
Belial, the Lord of the Fourth, the Pale Kiss
Geryon, the Lord of the Fifth, the Serpent
Moloch, the Lord of the Sixth, the General of Hell
Baalzebul, the Lord of the Seventh, the Lord of the Flies
Mephistopheles, the Lord of the Eighth, the Merchant of Souls
Asmodeus, the Lord of the Ninth, the Prince of Darkness
Only the last is a 'true' deity (the others can still grant domains/spells.
They are each rulers of their own layer.
Rovagug's a qlipoth?
Rovagug's a qlipoth?A qlippoth who ascended to deity status, yes.
Maybe. Lamashtu ascended, because she had to kill Churchanus (sp?) to do it.
Asmodeus could be an ascended devil, but he's probably an elder deity who created the devils to serve him. Sarenrae has a similar deal with angels.
Likewise, Rovagug could be the biggest meanest Qlippoth, or he could be the creator of the Qlippoth.
2e's 'Guide to Hell' presented him as a gigantic serpent that ate disbelief, didn't need worship, had the power of a greater deity, and was partially responsible for the creation of the multiverse along with Jazirian the coatl deity. This concept was never picked up in subsequent books except for the idea that he had a true form different from the avatar in Nessus, and that he fell from somewhere else.
I have a theory that Asmodeus and Apsu were once the same, and Ihys was the same as Tiamat. (If we tie in 2e, that means Jazirian/Ihys/Tiamat were all one primordial being.)
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Maybe. Lamashtu ascended, because she had to kill Churchanus (sp?) to do it.
Well, everyone's gotta do something to get there...
Asmodeus could be an ascended devil, but he's probably an elder deity who created the devils to serve him.
That's very possible, though we only have his word for it.
Sarenrae has a similar deal with angels.
This, however, is pretty clearly not the case. Sarenrae herself claims to have originally been an angel, as does her church, and she's a much more believable source than Asmodeus.
Likewise, Rovagug could be the biggest meanest Qlippoth, or he could be the creator of the Qlippoth.
Again, quite possible.
When the universe was young, just being the first to do something was enough to become God of it: Urgathoa became Goddess of Undeath just by being the first mortal to refuse to stay dead, for instance.
Sarenrae claims to originally have been an Angel, or at least less than a Goddess, but her myths also have her standing toe-to-toe (he planted the first darkness [Evil], she created the first light [Good]) or side-by-side with Asmodeus (binding of Rovagug) since the dawn of time. Sure, that could mean they were both demigods at the time, but they had to both be Gods by the binding of Rovagug. And things like inventing Good and Evil is the kind of thing that, if you weren't a God when you did it, makes you a God afterward.
But you're right, no one was there, the Gods don't talk much and when they do, some of them lie.
Not quite true. He's not the unquestioned ruler of the entire plane of Hell.
I know the Asuras claim parts of Hell that the Devils consider the hinterlands and the Asuras probably hold in higher esteem. The Kytons have largely emigrated to the Plane of Shadow, but I suspect some remain and give Zon-Kuthon claim to part of the plane (basically an Embassy, I figure.)
I'm sure Zursvaater/Minderhal/Surtur has a Fire Giant petitioner domain somewhere.
Any other LE Deities/Outsider races in residence?
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When the universe was young, just being the first to do something was enough to become God of it: Urgathoa became Goddess of Undeath just by being the first mortal to refuse to stay dead, for instance.
Sarenrae claims to originally have been an Angel, or at least less than a Goddess, but her myths also have her standing toe-to-toe (he planted the first darkness [Evil], she created the first light [Good]) or side-by-side with Asmodeus (binding of Rovagug) since the dawn of time. Sure, that could mean they were both demigods at the time, but they had to both be Gods by the binding of Rovagug. And things like inventing Good and Evil is the kind of thing that, if you weren't a God when you did it, makes you a God afterward.
But you're right, no one was there, the Gods don't talk much and when they do, some of them lie.
Sarenrae's deity article includes a very specific rundown of how that went. She started as an angel bringing light and opposing darkness, then became an Empyreal Lord with her fellow angels' support for being so good at it, while an Empyreal Lord she stood alone against Rovagug, and her willingness to sacrifice herself so as to save others (and the hope this brought the other Gods) catapulted her to full godhood and allowed her to cast him down and help to bind him.
It's not ambiguous or presented as IC at all. It also fits all known facts (except possibly some of Asmodeus's story in BotD, and that's IC and from Asmodeus).
So...while nothing's absolutely sure, I think Sarenrae having been an angel once is about as certain as Iomedae or Cayden Cailean having been mortal once. Or that Aroden is dead. It's a pretty fundamental setting assumption, really. Though perhaps somewhat easier to change than the others I mention.
Actually there were hints at Asmodeus being worshipped as a god as far back in First Edition. Just like Tiamat and Bahamut.
May I ask why the poster has the issue with this? I do suspect the main reason it was done, was to provide the foundation for the backstory of Cheliax. He's also a major figure in the sealing of Rovagug, something that the good and neutral gods could not pull off on their own. Asmodeus seems tailormade as a replacement god for a nation so heavily grounded on the theme of human supremacy.
I have absolutely no issue with Asmodeus being a deity. As I stated above, I mostly have a 3.5 background, where Asmodeus was a regular archdevil. So seeing him as a deity was a little surprising... and puzzling... and a little alienting. Thus, I asked ^_^
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I like it when a setting has its 'own' gods, or treats certain monster types with a different origin story.
Which is why it saddens me when I hear 'But the setting has to have Cthulhu or Tiamat or Bahamut!. It just has to!'. No really it dosnt, if you have a multi headed dragon headed creature/deity it dosnt have to be Bahamut. Give it a new origin story a new name.
The reason Golarion is so interesting is that it's so varied. We have a nation of Atheists, an Island controleed by a Gold Dragon as part of a eugenics experiment, a nation worshipping a devil as a state religon.
We honestly dont need to bring in Bahamut because 'Hes the core Good Dragon God, so he has to be there'
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Also, didn't see this point above except in passing, but Paizo has a history of taking figures from Myth, Legend, and History, and making them into major figures of the setting. To me, it's more inspiring to have "Asmodeus", or "Baba Yaga", or "The Jersey Devil," or "Jack the Ripper" as a main villain than "Kibba-Bibbi the Fierce," or "Jubilex the Faceless." There's no copyright, they strike a known legendary chord with the player base, and there are THOUSANDS of years' worth in human culture to draw from.