Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pretty much every fantasy game system has some sort of mount system, and lets face it, then NEED mounts. Otherwise travel simply becomes a doggedly boring thing to do.
On the flip side, I've walked into a shop in some games to find myself staring at 20 horse butts because people ride their mount into town, then into the shop.. never leaving it as they do their shopping.
I don't want to prevent people from riding horses in the street.. I certainly don't want to stop small folk from riding dogs in the street.
What would people think if, when you hit the door to go into a shop, if your mount was put at a hitching post until you emerged? Thus you can see how busy the shop is from the outside AND the inside of the shop won't get cluttered by extra animals? Maybe the same can be done with a necromancers undead pets?
But at very least I hope they derez pets when someone goes into a shop so they aren't riding around on a horse, banging their head against a chandelier.
Boojum the brown bunny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hitching mounts outside would be a nice touch, though I wonder about what would happen when you "reach capacity" for your hitching posts; maybe it only displays mounts up to a certain number? It would allow players to show off their fancy mounts while also chilling out at the bar (and give bandits the opportunity to scout out for valuable looking mounts to tail). Good idea.
Mounts will almost certainly be in game; I would expect the first incarnation of them to show up sometime before OE, but that's just a guess on my part.
By the by, welcome to the discussions Boojumbunn, thanks for offering up some fresh ideas for inclusions into the game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
*grin* Thanks, I've actually been lurking here for a while. Our Friday Night Tabletop Pathfinder game is running again and that got me wanting to discuss some of the play idea's. I'm REALLY looking forward to this game coming out, it and Star Citizen. This weekend I am building my new game machine to handle the new games.
For the hitching post idea, I could see it where when it hits capacity the oldest mount vanishes to be replaced by the new one... but the simpler answer may just be to not rez new mounts when it's full. You have a hitching post to allow for five standard size mounts... the first five riders to enter the store have their mounts at the hitching post while the sixth just has his derezzed.
Another interesting possibility would be to make it rank based. The highest ranked person gets their mount closest to the door.. the lowest ranked get's their shuffled off (*snicker* possibly to a random hitching post in town.. now that your done shopping, go find your horse. That'll teach them to try and ride their horse into the shop.)
That last suggestion is not serious, of course.. but it is funny.
Boojum the brown bunny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am not sure if travel in the River Kingdoms will *ever* be boring.
The River Kingdoms are too dangerous for that.
This actually raises a point that I've seen in secret wars. You can't get from point A to point B without getting pulled out of run speed by attacks and having to fight everything along the way. This slows down your ability to actually get things done because of the constant, step by step battle that travel becomes.
I wouldn't want to see that in Pathfinder Online. Yes, the world needs to be challenging with lots of things going on.. but every five feet you shouldn't end up fighting another band of goblins when your trying to reach town b. That is something that being on a mount can help with, particularly if you can see and run around packs of creatures.. or simply ignore them and outrun them.
Boojum the brown bunny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This one time, in Darkfall....
Seriously, overland travel never becomes boring there. The world is much larger than the River Kingdoms will be (for some time) and the population much less dense, but you are constantly alert or you die eventually. The travel does become tedious though, even with mounts. Walking will be tedious and mounts will be great. Once we are used to mounts, riding will become tedious (as well), but neither will be boring! :)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Mounts will *puff!* into the stables when not in use. Saves having mounts taking up resources, from previous converstations.
But some sort of horse-system (economy and horse-shoes, saddles etc) would be quite cool and stables to refresh horses (after a long tiring journey) for travel again sooner as a settlement utility.
I'd prefer it if mounts were not simply charging around willy-nilly but more restricted to fast travel along roads. Adventuring parties travelling out in the wilds with no roads would be going at a steady pace whereas the thundering hooves of horses would attract all sorts of monsters.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
OOOoooo.. AvenaOats, that's some interesting idea's. I wonder if we can also engage in horse breeding? Have a stable of horses, breed a grulla or an appaloosa? Specialize in breeding heavy war horses that we can then sell to adventurers! After all, they are going to have a robust economy in the world, I wonder if that could include an economy for where horses and mounts come from? Maybe mounts WON'T be available at your local grocery store, maybe someone has to breed, raise, and train them first! A task handled by NPC's at first, but available as a profession for player characters!
Boojum the brown bunny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am not sure if travel in the River Kingdoms will *ever* be boring.
The River Kingdoms are too dangerous for that.
This actually raises a point that I've seen in secret wars. You can't get from point A to point B without getting pulled out of run speed by attacks and having to fight everything along the way. This slows down your ability to actually get things done because of the constant, step by step battle that travel becomes.
I wouldn't want to see that in Pathfinder Online. Yes, the world needs to be challenging with lots of things going on.. but every five feet you shouldn't end up fighting another band of goblins when your trying to reach town b. That is something that being on a mount can help with, particularly if you can see and run around packs of creatures.. or simply ignore them and outrun them.
Boojum the brown bunny
Well, I wasn't talking about NPC mobs, but rather players. Players that your settlement may be at war with, or a feud, or a PC banditgroup. I do not think GW would implement a feature that could simply make you outrun any PvP encounter. Mind you, they have been talking about players having the option to run from a fight (which will not Always work), but that is not the same as being able to zoom by any enemies simply because you are on horseback.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What would people think if, when you hit the door to go into a shop, if your mount was put at a hitching post until you emerged?
Two simple mechanisms that could solve the issues:
1) prevent (tall) mounts to go through doors (or tight cave entrances, into deep water, up ladders, etc)
2) have stables give the mounts some sort of 'rested' buff (scaling with time stabled and quality of stables).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
OOOoooo.. AvenaOats, that's some interesting idea's. I wonder if we can also engage in horse breeding? Have a stable of horses, breed a grulla or an appaloosa?
Boojum the brown bunny
Eventually, down the line if Crowdforging pushes that way after Open Enrollment, it would seem to be a good fit.
Not sure what damage to a mount would do: Impede your further use of it until taken back to a ranch for example? Animal healing sounds like Druid work?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The mechanism for protecting the livestock would probably be the same as protecting your gardens and farmland. Besides, there really should be something for Bandits to get when they raid a settlement. :) And we hang horse thieves in this here town...
Boojum the brown bunny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The mechanism for protecting the livestock would probably be the same as protecting your gardens and farmland. Besides, there really should be something for Bandits to get when they raid a settlement. :) And we hang horse thieves in this here town...
Boojum the brown bunny
Farms, ranches and stables are likely to be POIs and hopefully will have raid mechanics similar to Outposts, other than having better defenses and a larger contingent of NPC Guards.
These could essentially become a bandit character's PvE / PvP content. /crosses fingers
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is the issue that originally brought me to the forums. Other than mounts for travelling....is it possible for the first time in any MMO I have ever played I can actually lance someone!
We'll assign you to the Cavalry Division when Armies are drawn up.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Fallen Earth has mounted combat, but only ranged weapons. I'm wondering if Lee Hammock could explain what the issues of melee weapons and mounted combat were?
Yup...just made my cav horse a couple of nights ago. Haven't played much, but I can fire both my pistols and my rifle from horseback.
Great ideas for a horse economy and ranch PoI.
Hopefully they make mounts persistent in the game world, rather than a utility that magically appears and disappears. I like the idea of mounts being able to be killed or stolen.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Great ideas for a horse economy and ranch PoI.
Hopefully they make mounts persistent in the game world, rather than a utility that magically appears and disappears. I like the idea of mounts being able to be killed or stolen.
I'm not so certain about the Persistent idea. I'm traveling through the countryside when I have to log off to go get dinner... because my horse is persistent it stands there in the middle of nowhere with my character not around as wolves come and eat it.. or a wandering adventurer comes along and eats it. Either way, I don't think that a persistent mount is a good idea.
Boojum the brown bunny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Great ideas for a horse economy and ranch PoI.
Hopefully they make mounts persistent in the game world, rather than a utility that magically appears and disappears. I like the idea of mounts being able to be killed or stolen.
I'm not so certain about the Persistent idea. I'm traveling through the countryside when I have to log off to go get dinner... because my horse is persistent it stands there in the middle of nowhere with my character not around as wolves come and eat it.. or a wandering adventurer comes along and eats it. Either way, I don't think that a persistent mount is a good idea.
Boojum the brown bunny
But, horse meat is so tasty!!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Great ideas for a horse economy and ranch PoI.
Hopefully they make mounts persistent in the game world, rather than a utility that magically appears and disappears. I like the idea of mounts being able to be killed or stolen.
We discussed a while back why persistent horses would cause too much overhead iirc. The idea will be to keep them functional as much as possible I guess. Likewise ranches etc is a long-long term projection (and seemingly a very good one). Damage to mounts is a whole extra discussion: Possibly a reason to use your mount carefully if it can be damaged and therefore temporarily not usable with a sort of degradation over time quality as you'd find for items. Possibly.
We discussed a while back why persistent horses would cause too much overhead iirc. The idea will be to keep them functional as much as possible I guess. Likewise ranches etc is a long-long term projection (and seemingly a very good one). Damage to mounts is a whole extra discussion: Possibly a reason to use your mount carefully if it can be damaged and therefore temporarily not usable with a sort of degradation over time quality as you'd find for items. Possibly.Great ideas for a horse economy and ranch PoI.
Hopefully they make mounts persistent in the game world, rather than a utility that magically appears and disappears. I like the idea of mounts being able to be killed or stolen.
When I wrote that I wasn't thinking along the lines of a disconnect from logged in/logged off characters to their horses, but simply the idea that while you were playing your horse would be with you whether you were riding it or not. Basically that your horse would end up being another perishable item that you would need to protect.
I've read a few posts that advocated persistent in-game characters. It's an interesting concept. I can think of arguments for and against requiring players to log out in safe areas.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally I'd rather not see mounts at all until they could be released with fully developed game systems associated with them. In particular Mounted combat and NPC's using mounts too. Just make it the primary focus of a major update or expansion and throw in the Cavalier class with it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Upon log out the mount does not have to be any more persistent then the character does. A mount is a quasi pet, which I mean by this that it can not be put into your back pack and summoned later.
The mount needs upkeep, and to be stabled or left (vulnerable) outside if a stable, unless you log off or disconnect.
A mount can be attacked and killed, just like a pet, but it does not respawn. A mount should be something that can be stolen, or slaughtered and salvaged for materials (Yummy!).
A mount should have quality levels (tiers), and appropriate key words based on its tier. This simulates a mount having "training".
A Mount should be name able, and with its selected key words, it will become unique.
Because mounts are like items, that can be lost permanently, killing or stealing someone's mount should place that killer/thief on your enemies list. This way you can hire a Bounty Hunter or Assassin to avenge the loss of your mount.
I recognize that this is a thing that is way, way down the road. But, every element I mentioned is possible, I've seen them done separately in many games. All GW woukd have to do is bring it all together.
How cool would it be if PFO could state it has the most in depth mount system as a feature?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was going to say, killable mounts would keep mounted combat from being the default best form of combat. Mounted combat is superior, up until your mount dies, then all of those slotted mounted combat abilities are useless and you become an inferior combatant on foot.
Also everything Bluddwolf said. Though I probably would recommend mounts have separate qualities for breeding and training, with players that have Animal Training skills able to improve mounts training quality.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Bludwulf you just about summed up my thoughts on mounts. Also most of the the ideas mentioned in this thread could apply to pack and draft animals. I would also like to add that there should be a major difference between war mounts and those used primarily for traveling.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Bludwulf you just about summed up my thoughts on mounts. Also most of the the ideas mentioned in this thread could apply to pack and draft animals. I would also like to add that there should be a major difference between war mounts and those used primarily for traveling.
Those differences could also come from the use of key words. But, also the stock or breed of the initial horse could also be the difference as well.
I'd also like to add to Hark's thoughts on mounted combat, and specifically targeting mounts.
I think it should be a non lawful (alignment) act to intentionally target the mount of the enemy. AOE's would be exempt from the chaotic shift, but direct fire woukd be a Chaotuc act. There was (I believe) a code of honor amoungst Knights and later Cavalry Officers that the horses were not to be targeted intentionally.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because there's a Chaotic shift for stealing things, I think a Chaotic shift for killing mounts would also be appropriate. It's just stealing the item but you don't get it either.
Well, so far killing in PFO has been described as an evil act, not a chaotic one. Attacking has been described as chaotic.
If horses could have names and be trainable, then I could see treating them as almost like an alt. ....
Dev Blog: A Horse with No Name (suggested title) for Mounts in PFO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I would also really like to see players be able to own a stable and raise/train horses for sale.. The rules for breeding particular traits into horses are fairly well known today and I think would be easy for them to include in the game. Even let people breed horses with fantasy colors like a starfall appaloosa or a glitterdust sunset palamino.
Boojum the brown bunny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I would just like this game to have a subscription-graph as Eve online has. :)
Ryan once stated that if you would like to see a certain feature in the game, you had to ask yourself 3 things(I think it was like this):
1) How many people would actually use this feature;
2) How much does this feature add to meaningful player-interaction;
3) How much development-time would have to go into this feature.
When we talk about horse-breeding my assesment would be:
1) about 1 percent;
2) none, other then some extra trade by the breeders;
3) quit a bit I would imagine;
Maybe in a (distant?) future, mounts will be added. And maybe mounted combat. And maybe horses can die, so they become a disposable commodity.
In that case, I could see something like stables and breeding come into play, since there needs to be a way that horses make it into the economy(could be simple NPC Merchants at first).
Even so I would rather expect GW to add Stables as a Settlement building(costing DI) that will crank out horses, using resources. I still do not see them implement an intricate breeding system, since it would only need so many players to work that system(like 1 per settlement).
I hope you do not find me too negative, but there are a lot of "way out-there proposals" lately.
Then again, they are a nice diversion from all the back-and forth about Reputation, so keep em coming I guess. :)
About the Starfall appaloosa: no.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm not sure if I agree with your assessment. I know a lot of girls who love breeding horses and who play the horse breeding games for the PlayStation platform. I also know that one of the huge things in Second Life is people raising pets on their land.
Even the silly little facebook games include raising and breeding pets as some of them now.
I think you would be surprised at how many people would give ranching a try.
Boojum the brown bunny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
So let me see if I can explain my view on this better. There are two main points I want to make.
Point 1. Pathfinder Online is a sandbox game, not a straight combat game. This means that one of the main selling points of the game is your ownership of a part of the game and what you can do with it. You have to provide enough things for people to do in their lands so that they have fun and a reason to develop them. It needs to be more than "Fought off bandits today", "Fought off monsters today", "Cleared out bad things in north quarter today" over and over again. There needs to be a variety of tasks to do on your land.
So your time could instead be "Fought off Bandits today", then "Had 5 new chickens today, but one of the horses is sick. Had to pay a vet.", and then "Ran across a band of goblins while clearing out a watering hole for the horses."
Once your home is built and your town is going.. you need things to do, just like regular people do. I think that looking to games like second life and the mini games people play on their phones is a good place to research this.
Point 2. Every game has it's bottlenecks. Places where the flow of traffic bogs down because your adventurers start queuing to get in. One solution is to increase the capacity of the bottleneck points. Now you can fit 1000 people into a dungeon instead of 100. This solution lacks variety, however. The game then devolves into rechewing the same adventures over and over. Another solution, and a better one in my mind, is to add content that draws people away from those choke points. In the past, this has meant a new dungeon. In a lot of games, the new dungeon, however, simply becomes the new choke point, leaving the old dungeon empty. Games played in your sandbox area, like crafting and ranching and growing crops, spreads out the shift in activity in a distributed method. No longer does everyone congregate at the new dungeon/event/server requiring greater and greater overhead. Instead, they spread out to their own bits of lands, on lots of servers, to play with the new functionality.
I feel that both of these are solid points for a sandbox MMORPG... and things I hope get built into Pathfinder. Not necessarily at the beginning, but I have hopes for it to be as rich and breathing as the AD&D game that I've been playing in weekly for the last 20 years. It never get's old because there is always something to do in the world in addition to adventuring.
Boojum the brown bunny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think you are talking about completely different demographics here.
I do not think that PFO is targeting "girls who love breeding horses" but I could be wrong.
That is probably true, but is an extreme example offered. You could say that PfO is not targeting "girls who love to kill without reason".
No MMO can include everything that everyone might like to do, yet many (some of them FTP) include lots of similar things like that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Sorry, Boojumbunn, but I am getting too much Farmville and too little Game of Thrones vibe, when you talk like that.
I totally agree that this game is more then an FPS where you respawn then run out to shoot some more baddies, die, repeat.
But the whole Settlement game, including the economy based on resources and crafting already creates a huge amount of gameplay.
Putting so many resources in systems that focus on keeping individual players "busy" does not really seem the intent of the game.
It is a cost/benefit thing but more then that, it could hurt their original premisse if they end up with 10% bothering with Settlements and Warfare and 90% going on about their business in their own little slice of the game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think you are talking about completely different demographics here.
I do not think that PFO is targeting "girls who love breeding horses" but I could be wrong.That is probably true, but is an extreme example offered. You could say that PfO is not targeting "girls who love to kill without reason".
No MMO can include everything that everyone might like to do, yet many (some of them FTP) include lots of similar things like that.
I think catering (or trying to) to the wrong demographic can actually hurt the game. Also, I do not really understand your remark, it was Boojumbunn who mentioned the girls who love breeding horse, as if they could be a source of potential PFO players. I do not see that. Nor the Second Lifers.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Oh, I agree.. but neither should it be so focused on combat and adventuring that your character is limited to only doing those tasks. When you think about it, Crafting itself is sort of a niche part of games. Yeah, you can get better equipment for adventuring, but I know of a lot of people who do it because they find it fun to do.
Certainly the MAIN things should be included. The things that everyone or a vast majority is going to want. But if that is all you include then the game becomes stale. To me, Star Wars Old Republic is like this. Spectacular game, beautifull graphics, wonderfull stories. It includes the stuff that everyone wants, but leaves out stuff that fewer people want. After you run through all the character types twice, most people are pretty much done with the game. All that is left is doing the same thing over and over.
I think that, now that sandboxed games are coming out, that they need to consider what can be done on the land you own besides building a house. Almost no one wants a horse they can't ride. Almost no one wants a sword they can't swing. I believe that almost no one wants a house they can't live in.. land they can't use.
The next step is to consider, what things can be implemented in the game that can be done on the land. That is something I haven't seen much discussion on. Yes, you have a pretty plot of land. Can you grow things on it? Can you have a bar and have friends come over to your tavern and drink and sing dirty songs? Do people hang out near the town well? Can I buy beer in bulk from a town, have it hauled overland to my tavern in the town I've built, and then sell it to the people who visit my tavern for roleplaying?
Not everything can be implemented, not everything SHOULD be implemented. But something needs to be done to address what will be done on your land beyond protecting it and building on it? What do you do while waiting for that next bandit attack? Do you stand in front of your house doing nothing, or do you work on raising your chickens?
Boojum the brown bunny
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I have to admit it I don't see many people buying the game just because they heard it's a good stable sim. Maybe as a sidekick character from someone that plays in the more well known aspects.
Still, once development time is available for elective activities, I enthusiastically endorse a smorgasbord of elective sub-games for people to do while they wait for the next war.
If there's a way to "breed" keywords through lineages of horses (as well as train keywords) using the conceptual scaffolding of other crafters with a husbandry surface, the elective activity can keep "girls who love breeding horses" types happy and be incredibly meaningful to many players when the mount patch is released.
Little stand-alone games that feed back into the overall world are the best elective features there are to spend time developing. Which is why I'm not automatically opposed to a Farmville option if it's fun and challenging rather than repetitive (or set-it-and-forget-it kind of repetitive with a knock to productivity).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
As already mentioned, mounts and mounted combat would be nice along with a compelling way to integrate them into the overall system. Most in-depth mount, mounted combat and mount ecosystem would be awesome (and time-consuming + resource-draining + what value does it add for users?)
TL;DR: Unless they are already in the roadmap for EE release, please do not add mounts to MVP. M = minimum.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I think catering (or trying to) to the wrong demographic can actually hurt the game. Also, I do not really understand your remark, it was Boojumbunn who mentioned the girls who love breeding horse, as if they could be a source of potential PFO players. I do not see that. Nor the Second Lifers.I think you are talking about completely different demographics here.
I do not think that PFO is targeting "girls who love breeding horses" but I could be wrong.That is probably true, but is an extreme example offered. You could say that PfO is not targeting "girls who love to kill without reason".
No MMO can include everything that everyone might like to do, yet many (some of them FTP) include lots of similar things like that.
It was largely tongue in cheek. The point is that there are MMO fantasy games out there where you grow strange hybrid flowers and plants, breed and/or train pets with lots of different abilities, tailor unique clothing, etc... Very customizable things. It is not impossible. I will admit it may not fit for PfO at this or any near future stage, but it is not unheard of.
Besides, it would be nice if the game were more attractive to a wider audience. Not necessarily little girls or boys, but wider than the usual PVP heavy titles.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I myself would greatly enjoy running a horse ranch PoI if that were in-game. Horse breeding does not have to be restricted to little girls, and including horse breeding does not target the wrong demographic in any way. I mean, what's the alternative to horse ranches, just having everyone's mounts imported from foreign lands? The horses have to come from somewhere, and especially in a sandbox where we say that all your stuff comes from player efforts horse ranches just make sense.
A well-done breeding system which included heredity and other factors would likely lean more towards catering to the type of players who like to do the spreedsheets-in-space deal, in my opinion.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Naw.. I pointed out girls because my wife loves horses and would so play Pathfinder online with me if they had horse breeding. She's been pouting about MMO's since City of Heroes went away. So it was a recently discussed case in point rather than a specific demographic to target. I know that I have played games like Breeders Cup for the playstation and enjoyed raising horses, I suspect a lot of the people who play crafters and miners would also enjoy it. But it has to have game elements worked into it for it to be fun.
At any rate, I sort of side tracked the discussion on not letting people ride horses inside buildings, which was my point on what I wanted them to do at release if they included mounts. The rest was just me being excited about some possabilities.
boojum the brown bunny