My monk rework for my gaming group- Overpowered, or Just right?


Homebrew and House Rules

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Alright first I want to say that I'm not going to rehash why I and most people believe the monk to fail as a class, that's been done a million times before and could take up an evening. What I am going to say is that my gaming group asked me to make monks an actual option in our games, make it more interesting, engaging, and all around deliver more of the Wuxia style Unarmed combatant with mystical powers gained from a very rigorous and lifelong pursuit of perfection. Now since 'monk' doesn't quite give the right connotation to me I prefer to call the class something like "Ascetic Master" or something along that tone.

I came up with this concept from Paizo message boards Jason Nelson's Feather step and Abundant step fixes, Squirrelloids idea of letting them have 'pressure point' style attacks that debuff somehow, and the Frank and K Tome Monk redesign (particularly the Armored in Life and Unarmed damage). Those ideas aren't my own but I thought were clever and easy to implement to meet the design of a proper monk class, and tried to marry them with one or two ideas of my own in the final product.

I won't say it's perfect or anything, and is more to meet the goals of my own group, but I think something similar to it might be a decent 'fix' for most of the monks problems...at least I hope lol. It's most likely a little overpowered in this first draft, and if so I find it easier to decrease somethings power then increase since taking away or weakening a power is less work then making up a whole new one or something akin to that, so here it is, and hoping for some thoughts on what you all think.

Here be the Google Doc, which should be easier then typing it all out here lol: Monk rework


You forgot to make it so people with the link could view it.


I did? o.0 forgive my misunderstanding of google drive I've only been using it for like a week, where do I set that then?

Ok I think I got it, sorry I'm new to all this stuff


Interesting. I like Feather Step, and overall it seems like a solid rework.

One gripe is that he still has Diamond Soul, which is much more of a hindrance than a help a lot of the time.

Also, Counterspelling seems thematically...off, and not very effective in any case. May want to drop that aspect.


One thing that jumps out at me right away (and one of the simplest mistakes in the Monk writeup since 3.0) is Fast Movement as an enhancement bonus rather than simply increasing his base speed.


Ah, that too. I knew I'd meant to comment on something else.


Rynjin wrote:

Interesting. I like Feather Step, and overall it seems like a solid rework.

One gripe is that he still has Dimaond Body, which is much more of a hindrance than a help a lot of the time.

Also, Counterspelling seems thematically...off, and not very effective in any case. May want to drop that aspect.

Alrought would you have a suggestion for what to replace diamond body with? I mostly left it alone because I didn't know what to put in it's place.

And I can agree that it's a tad off concept, at the time I was thinking "they can use their Ki to cast spells, and so would know the motions...why not enforce the whole 'mageslayer' idea of them" so I tacked it onto Counter Strike, I can easily just take that clause off though


kyrt-ryder wrote:
One thing that jumps out at me right away (and one of the simplest mistakes in the Monk writeup since 3.0) is Fast Movement as an enhancement bonus rather than simply increasing his base speed.

Actually you have a good point there I forgot I meant to change that lol


You don't have to remove Diamond Body, if you include in the ability an explicit note that the Monk gets a choice of weather or not to apply his spell resistance to any spells cast at him as a non-action.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
You don't have to remove Diamond Body, if you include in the ability an explicit note that the Monk gets a choice of weather or not to apply his spell resistance to any spells cast at him as a non-action.

Ahh i see, because there's no clause that says he can't just let something beneficial hit him without passing it. I'm learning more and more why I made this for my group lol

Edit- Don't you mean Diamond Soul?


Yes I meant Diamond Soul. I was going off of Rynjin's comments (which were directed at Diamond Soul but stated Diamond Body) and went with the flow by mistake.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Yes I meant Diamond Soul. I was going off of Rynjin's comments (which were directed at Diamond Soul but stated Diamond Body) and went with the flow by mistake.

no worries lol, I've done that too before, and I've edited the suggestions in.

Their movement speed is explicitly stated to not be an enhancement and simply a base increase, as well as applying to all natural modes of movement they have.

Counterspelling no longer a part of Counter Strike.

Diamond Soul can be passed freely is the monk wishes and your doing something good for him, if you say you are and he lowers it, but you cast something harmful instead it raises back and he becomes aware of the lie.

On the note of things, what do you think is right about this rework? and what do you think of the changes to things like flurry being part of the Ki pool, Ki powers, and the like?


Everything else looks good. I'd have to see it in play to make a final judgement, but nothing jumps out as being broken, really.

As I said before, Feather Step is awesome, and the Ki Flurry ability is neat.


Rynjin wrote:

Everything else looks good. I'd have to see it in play to make a final judgement, but nothing jumps out as being broken, really.

As I said before, Feather Step is awesome, and the Ki Flurry ability is neat.

Alright I'm glad you like it :D, how strong would you say this version is on the tier list? I was at least gunning for tier 3 since thats what my group was hoping for.

Sovereign Court

Everything looks good, except for two comments:
1. I think wholeness of body is a bit too powerful. It basically means that after combat is over, the monk heals to full with no expenditure of resources. In some campaigns (with CLW wands easily available), this isn't a big deal, but in others, it is. I would make it limited use. Either have a fixed number of rounds per day (maybe monk level+wisdom?), or spend ki to gain fast healing for a specific number of rounds, either monk level or wisdom bonus

2. Counterstrike says "firstly ..." but doesn't give any other bonus. Is this a typo?

Overall, really good.


Not tier three, but a very playable tier four.


GralphidB wrote:

Everything looks good, except for two comments:

1. I think wholeness of body is a bit too powerful. It basically means that after combat is over, the monk heals to full with no expenditure of resources. In some campaigns (with CLW wands easily available), this isn't a big deal, but in others, it is. I would make it limited use. Either have a fixed number of rounds per day (maybe monk level+wisdom?), or spend ki to gain fast healing for a specific number of rounds, either monk level or wisdom bonus

2. Counterstrike says "firstly ..." but doesn't give any other bonus. Is this a typo?

Overall, really good.

hmm, I suppose you have a point, I'm used to playing in games where fast healing is pretty normal to gain somehow since we don't use casters or wands as much as some, and I think we've played maybe one game with a an actual healer lol. I think making it Monk level + Wis rounds is fine.

and for 2...yeah I didn't notice that XD, it used to have another clause I'll edit that


I wouldn't mind a couple more open options, like getting to chose between sorcerer/wizard or cleric for ki powers (once chosen then it cannot be changed) and instead of wisdom and intelligence determining ki (which feels straining to me) how about you let the monks choose one mental ability score of their choice and have that apply to their ki pool and ki power abilities.


christos gurd wrote:
I wouldn't mind a couple more open options, like getting to chose between sorcerer/wizard or cleric for ki powers (once chosen then it cannot be changed) and instead of wisdom and intelligence determining ki (which feels straining to me) how about you let the monks choose one mental ability score of their choice and have that apply to their ki pool and ki power abilities.

Hmmm, I suppose those are nice little extra's to add in, originally I was having it be Wis +Int for Ki so can you could deal with having average stats in them and still have the chance to have as good an amount of Ki as someone with a good stat in wisdom lol, but I like the elegant solution of just picking one stat.


Overall I think you have some good ideas, but I also find level pretty front loaded. I would delay Fast Movement and would also scale back the AC bonus a pinch.


Naoki, do you have dragon tiger ox by any chance?


In martial PC's front loading isn't nearly as much a bad thing as Paizo likes to make it out to be. Even a little frontloaded, I can tell you straight out this particular class is appealing enough that not many people will want to try dipping around rather than just taking the revised Monk.


There are many issues with this, some things are OP, some things are underwhelming or unclear, and some things are redundant.

Right off the bat, BAB and HD. In Pathfinder, base classes have their BAB and HD tied together. Slow BAB nets you d6 HD (Wizard, Witch, Sorc etc.), Medium BAB nets you d8 HD (Rogue, Bard, Cleric), while Fast BAB nets you d10 HD (Ranger, Fighter, Cavalier) or d12 HD in the case of the Barbarian.

If you want it to be follow Pathfinder's guidelines, this needs to be resolved.

==========================

Personally, I'd like to see the Monk with 6 skill points, if only because the Ranger has them and I often feel a little skill starved when building a Monk, even if he has a high int.

Not a crucial aspect though, can't have everything after all :)

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Weapon Proficiency: Kind of irks me that the weapon list is expanded, by the Monk isn't automatically proficient with all special Monk weapons. Might be easier to state he's proficient with Monk weapons and then a short list of additional weapons that aren't Monk weapons (like the short sword).

==========================

Armor in Life needs to be re-written for clarity, power and redundancy.

Clarity: What type of bonus is the armor bonus? Is it the same armor bonus as the one armor grants i.e. does it stack with Bracers of Armor?

Does it apply to normal AC or just Touch AC as it's written? Does it apply when flat-footed or denied dexterity?

Power: If it's a typeless bonus and applies to normal AC, then it's an extremely powerful armor bonus and needs to be reigned in. You'r talking a 24 AC starting before adding dex, bracers, natural armor etc. This easily lets Monks get ridiculous ACs without even trying.

If it's not typeless and doesn't stack with Bracers, then this Monk is defensively weaker than the current Monk. The current Monk can get up to a +13 AC bonus from Bracer's of Armor and the Monk AC bonus, then it adds Wisdom and Dexterity. Your proposed Monk does not get a secondary stat to AC and it really hurts as he doesn't have the option for a shield without losing class features.

The best way I can think of to fix this, would be to give the Monk a starting bonus of +2 at level one, and then at 3rd level and every 3 levels after, it increases by another +1; in addition, you might give something like half the wisdom bonus, or full wisdom bonus to AC. I would suggest half, so you don't make a class that is defensively and offensively strong, unless you put some real drawbacks, like a Paladin's code of conduct.

Redundancy: Ok, every feature that I can think of that applies to touch AC also applies to Incorporeal Touch AC, while the reverse is not true. So differentiating the two is a redundancy.

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Ki Pool: The fact the Monk chooses his mental ability score for Ki, yet all of his other abilities function off Wisdom means everyone is going to choose Wisdom, or they will force themselves to be even more MAD than normal. It's also rather low with the changes to the Ki Powers you made.

For example, a higher level Monk might be spending 2-3 points every round for additional attacks and god-forbid he ever attempt to cast a spell. A 3rd level spell, like Haste, is going to cost him 6 points. At something like 10th level, this is half or more of his Ki Points available.

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Ki Power: This is just... weird. First of all, it's listed as an (Ex)traordinary ability, despite being spell casting.

Second, is this a Spell, or a Spell-like Ability? The distinction matters a lot. Spell-like Abilities have no material cost or focus requirements, so a SLA of Simulacrum is 100% free, and would be available to a 13th level Monk.

Although a Simulacrum SLA would be cool for a Monk as he could try and pull off a Naruto-esque Shadow Clone Jutsu by having a bunch of low-level versions of himself as mooks.

The Ki Points cost to cast the spells is pretty outrageous. 6 points for Haste, 10 points for teleport. At 19th level, a Monk has 19 Ki Points + the modifier from an ability score (the max probably being +10); he has the option of an 8th level spell, but it would cost him 16 of his ~29 Ki Points available, which is an extraordinary amount of points.

Honestly, the Wizard spell list is the most game breaking spell list in the game and you should be very hesitant of granting access to it. Granting access to the Cleric Spell list is much less game breaking, and would let you drop down to only spending a number of Ki Points equal to the spell level.

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Improved Feather Step: I would add a clause that lets the Monk continue to walk on water if he spends a Ki Point each round to not sink. These kinds of abilities always bug me because it really enforces the 'turn style' fights instead of flowing combats that are reality. People don't take turns in real fights, they just act.

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Abundant Step: This has the same pitfalls the current Abundant Step has, meaning it functions like Dimension Door. Once the Monk uses Abundant Step, he loses the rest of his term as per Dimension Door.

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Diamond Soul: This is just wrong. While I appreciate the fact you made it more Party friendly, it really flies in the face of all the other creatures with SR. I'd be fine with a Monk spending a Ki Point to lower his SR as a swift action, but it no-way-shape-or-form should it automatically be raised if the caster is lieing.

With the way you have it written, you might as well just state, "At 13th level the Monk gains spell resistance equal to 10 + his Monk level against any non-harmful spells or effects." If a creature lowers his SR, it should be him willingly opening a hole in his defenses, not a false-hole that actually isn't really there.

Remember, a Human who becomes a Monk is not natural resistant to spells, he learns to become so. A creature like a Dragon is naturally resistant, just by the nature of being a dragon. Why is it a creature who isn't naturally resistant to magic, has a superior spell resistance mechanic to that of a creature who is naturally resistant?

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Boundless Body: This is a phenomenally powerful ability. You realize at this level he can hold open a portal to another plane for up to 3 minutes before it closes? Sure, it's only once per day, but the Monk could, theoretically, line up an army on the other side and have them all move through it to invade places.

Plane Shift would be a better spell to use instead of Gate. If you want the accuracy of Gate, have the Monk spend Ki to give himself pinpoint accuracy or something.

==========================

Perfect Self is a hard ability to balance. It turns him into an Outsider, typically which means he no longer has a maximum age (most outsiders are ageless). However, it also means many spells no longer function on him, such as Enlarge Person, which specifies targeting Humanoids rather than Outsiders.

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Over-all, I think this needs some work and is potentially too strong. You seriously run the risk of making a Monk who is both offensively and defensively strong, and with his Saves, SR and other abilities he's going to be nearly impossible to defeat. Only a supreme melee class is going to be able to take him down, because he's very likely to just out-right ignore any spell a caster throws at him.

The only thing that really stops him from becoming too powerful, is he really has no way of enhancing his attacks like other martials do. Accuracy is a big issue for martials and with the exception of Rogue/Ninja, and Monks all other melee characters have some method of gaining bonuses on their attack and damage rolls.

One thing you might do, is if you go with the reduced AC I mentioned above you could give half the Monk's AC bonus as a bonus on attack rolls, possibly only with unarmed strikes and monk weapons though.


Now, for a less 'negative' post.

I really liked the changes to Fast Movement, though I would have liked to see capping it at +60 only because it's a nice round number.

The Feather Step abilities are really cool and really flavorful and I would love to have such an ability on any of my Monks.

Debilitating Strikes and Counter Strikes are both really cool abilities that could be a lot of fun for Monk characters.

I liked the inclusion of the Ki Power ability (though I feel it's too strong) because many Monks or Martial Artists in fantasy or literature have very mystical abilities that aren't well portrayed by the Core Monk and only loosely so by some of the archetypes (namely Qinggong). So the inclusion of the spells is really neat.

I also liked that you included the ability to speak to animals into the Ki Pool ability as 'communing with nature' is a common theme in many martial artist shows.

You have a lot of cool ideas that really adds flavor to the Monk and I'd like to see this developed further.


christos gurd wrote:
Naoki, do you have dragon tiger ox by any chance?

I'm not really familiar with what your asking lol

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Quite a bit of good stuff. I like that the speed boost comes right away, and that the bonus feats aren't quite as front-loaded.

I like that Tongues comes in much sooner, though at a Ki cost.

Emulating spells costs too much Ki.

Armored in Life should not apply if the Monk is wearing any sort of armor (even if they are proficient in it), but it's fine to make an exception for clothes enchanted as armor (if they have a base Armor Score of 0).

It seems you try to liberate the Monk from Wis dependance (which I don't necessarily agree with, but I can respect) with Armored in Life and making Ki Pool based on any mental stat, but then why does Wholeness go off Wis?

The assignment of Su vs Ex seems somewhat random here. I can see immunity to poison being Ex (but you have it as Su), while creating a Gate is most definitely not Ex (but you have it as Ex).


Naoki00 wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
Naoki, do you have dragon tiger ox by any chance?
I'm not really familiar with what your asking lol

gifted it to you. Might have some ideas worth mining.


Tels wrote:

There are many issues with this, some things are OP, some things are underwhelming or unclear, and some things are redundant.

Right off the bat, BAB and HD. In Pathfinder, base classes have their BAB and HD tied together. Slow BAB nets you d6 HD (Wizard, Witch, Sorc etc.), Medium BAB nets you d8 HD (Rogue, Bard, Cleric), while Fast BAB nets you d10 HD (Ranger, Fighter, Cavalier) or d12 HD in the case of the Barbarian.

If you want it to be follow Pathfinder's guidelines, this needs to be resolved.

==========================

Personally, I'd like to see the Monk with 6 skill points, if only because the Ranger has them and I often feel a little skill starved when building a Monk, even if he has a high int.

Not a crucial aspect though, can't have everything after all :)

==========================

Weapon Proficiency: Kind of irks me that the weapon list is expanded, by the Monk isn't automatically proficient with all special Monk weapons. Might be easier to state he's proficient with Monk weapons and then a short list of additional weapons that aren't Monk weapons (like the short sword).

==========================

Armor in Life needs to be re-written for clarity, power and redundancy.

Clarity: What type of bonus is the armor bonus? Is it the same armor bonus as the one armor grants i.e. does it stack with Bracers of Armor?

Does it apply to normal AC or just Touch AC as it's written? Does it apply when flat-footed or denied dexterity?

Power: If it's a typeless bonus and applies to normal AC, then it's an extremely powerful armor bonus and needs to be reigned in. You'r talking a 24 AC starting before adding dex, bracers, natural armor etc. This easily lets Monks get ridiculous ACs without even trying.

If it's not typeless and doesn't stack with Bracers, then this Monk is defensively weaker than the current Monk. The current Monk can get up to a +13 AC bonus from Bracer's of Armor and the Monk AC bonus, then it adds Wisdom and Dexterity. Your proposed Monk does not...

oook wow XD, alright I'll try to reply to this one bit at a time lol

Firstly I want to say it's not 'entirely' finished, which is why I'm on here for help :) for the HD and BaB ratio I guess I never really noticed, and thought that since they get all manner of powerful defensive tools upping their HD seemed a bit overkill, I'd like to keep it as is for that reason personally since I think they deserve a full BaB.

In regards to the Skill points I suppose I'd like it to be 6+int too, but thought I shouldn't give too much lol

The weapon proficiency I honestly copy and pasted from the monk class itself, but I can just clear it up a little, I personally would rather just use unarmed but thats just a style preferance lol

With Armored in Life hmmm...I suppose it is a little ambiguous and I can clear it up, in terms of power though how are you getting 24 base without stats 0.0, it's +4 at first, so 14 base, with maybe an 18 dex brings it to 18, and since they can't use armor or shields that seems perfectly reasonable for a front liner to me, since they should have high AC to counter act their relatively low HP.

On to the Ki Pool, and I just haven't gone through to put the saves from +wis to "+ chosen modifier from Ki pool", since it was an idea from Kristos Gurd that I really liked to let you choose your mental stat to it so it can open more build options and help reduce MAD since you can plan around your single mental score, I'll get to working on that.

Alright I'll admit the wording I have on Ki Power is a little rough lol, it's supposed to be a SLA and I'll adjust that, and probably change the ability itself to a Spell Like one, and I figured the cost should be kinda steep as a way to balance out the sheer level of power just saying "casts from wizard list" can give, but some of the wizard spells are so useful I thought it would be nice to include, and the Ki Powers are supposed to be potentially powerful boons to a melee class, not to be used with a large amount of frequency like an actual caster, so I figured making it a high Ki cost would work instead of times per day. I can admit it's a bit...wonky though to cost so much, so if some other people agree that saying "cleric only, but spell level=point cost" is better, I'm perfectly happy to change it lol.

Improved Feather step- I didn't even notice it didn't let you just keep doing it to be honest lol

Abundant Step- Oh jeese I didn't even realize that about the regular monk (haven't really played one beyond 6th level), how about letting them take a Standard action afterwards?

Diamond Soul- Honestly I don't see much a problem in it since it's a rather flavor based line lol. It's the idea that his SR isn't stemming from normal means, but from a nearly subconsciously trained ability to understand magic, and then say "no" to it, much like how they become immune to poison through force of will and mystic training. The being about the lies was just supposed to be kinda like a twitch reaction if a caster tried to mess with him like- Caster "hold on there monk, let me heal you.." (casts Cause serious wounds) Monk after failing a sense motive- "oh of course kind mage I would like that" (consciously doesn't try blocking it), Monks body- "heeeeeeeey now....." Of course this IS a bit wordy and was just supposed to be nifty, I can just change it to "can be turned on and off as a free action" instead.

Boundless Self- Well in this guys case you'd at least need to have actually GOTTEN an army on one side of the gate in the first place, unlike the party wizard who can just call in the army straight up lol. I just don't feel like being able to go anywhere you want once a day and pinpoint where your going is that strong when by that level your party should be doing that freely anyway according to most people

Perfect Self- Yeah I...I don't really know what to do with this, I figure I could just add the line that they could choose to be treated as Either an Outsider or their original if it suits them

All in all though, thanks for the in depth criticism :D, it's nice to hear where it needs improving, and on the note of monk to hit, I did give them a little boost in the Unarmed Strike ability, 1/3rd level as +1 to hit and dmg but that's their only really boost


christos gurd wrote:
Naoki00 wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
Naoki, do you have dragon tiger ox by any chance?
I'm not really familiar with what your asking lol
gifted it to you. Might have some ideas worth mining.

Oh why thank you! :D, where will I find it since this is a first time being gifted?


Class has been a bit more updated with a few things


Naoki00 wrote:
With Armored in Life hmmm...I suppose it is a little ambiguous and I can clear it up, in terms of power though how are you getting 24 base without stats 0.0, it's +4 at first, so 14 base, with maybe an 18 dex brings it to 18, and since they can't use armor or shields that seems perfectly reasonable for a front liner to me, since they should have high AC to counter act their relatively low HP.

I wasn't very clear here, so let me clarify.

If a character (any class) were to wear a chain shirt, he gains a +4 AC bonus; if he were to then equip a set of +3 Bracers of Armor, his AC would not increase because they don't stack (both give an Armor Bonus).

So, what 'type' of bonus the Monk's AC bonus is matters in how he increases his AC.

So, for example, if the Monk's AC bonus were typeless (as the Core Monk's AC bonus is) then it stacks with everything. So, in this case, the Monk could equip a set of +8 Bracers of Armor at high levels to gain a +22 AC bonus (for an AC of 32). The current Monk would only have a +13 AC bonus from his AC bonus and a +8 Bracers of Armor, though he does get a second stat to his AC.

Naoki00 wrote:
Alright I'll admit the wording I have on Ki Power is a little rough lol, it's supposed to be a SLA and I'll adjust that, and probably change the ability itself to a Spell Like one, and I figured the cost should be kinda steep as a way to balance out the sheer level of power just saying "casts from wizard list" can give, but some of the wizard spells are so useful I thought it would be nice to include, and the Ki Powers are supposed to be potentially powerful boons to a melee class, not to be used with a large amount of frequency like an actual caster, so I figured making it a high Ki cost would work instead of times per day. I can admit it's a bit...wonky though to cost so much, so if some other people agree that saying "cleric only, but spell level=point cost" is better, I'm perfectly happy to change it lol.

Well, even charging double the spell level in Ki for Arcane Spells is way too much. If you design it to be costly so it's an 'out of combat' ability, then people are going to take the best 'non-combat' spells there is. Namely spells like Simulacrum, Planar Ally/Binding, Limited Wish etc.

I strongly advise to not make them Spell-like Abilities if you do go this route. The reason being is that spell-like abilities don't have to pay for costly material components. For example, Limited Wish requires a diamond costing 1,500 gp to cast, but a Monk that selected Limited Wish as his Spell-like Ability Ki Power could cast Lesser Wish without needing the diamond.

Now, sure, Limited Wish has... well limits on it. But say the Monk takes Simulacrum and every non-combat day he makes a Simulacrum of himself or others for free? Suddenly he can afford to field an army of mooks half his level. Say he copies the party Wizard each time and the next time the party gets into trouble, they could have the Simulacrum Wizards teleport in (via several scrolls and a telepathic bond) and unleash things like massive amounts of Acid Arrows, Fireballs and the like to utterly annihilate everything in immediate vicinity.

Naoki00 wrote:
Abundant Step- Oh jeese I didn't even realize that about the regular monk (haven't really played one beyond 6th level), how about letting them take a Standard action afterwards?

The simplest method is changing the wording from Dimension Door to Teleport instead. Though this does clash with the Dimensional Agility line of feats.

Naoki00 wrote:
Diamond Soul- Honestly I don't see much a problem in it since it's a rather flavor based line lol. It's the idea that his SR isn't stemming from normal means, but from a nearly subconsciously trained ability to understand magic, and then say "no" to it, much like how they become immune to poison through force of will and mystic training. The being about the lies was just supposed to be kinda like a twitch reaction if a caster tried to mess with him like- Caster "hold on there monk, let me heal you.." (casts Cause serious wounds) Monk after failing a sense motive- "oh of course kind mage I would like that" (consciously doesn't try blocking it), Monks body- "heeeeeeeey now....." Of course this IS a bit wordy and was just supposed to be nifty, I can just change it to "can be turned on and off as a free action" instead.

In Pathfinder, you can willingly forgo your saving throw on spells that have saves. If the Caster tricked you, you don't still get to make your saving throw. The Monk's SR should be the same way.

All I'm saying is letting a Monk lower his SR, but allowing it to automatically reactivate if the spell is actually harmful is very powerful. At the bare minimum, if you absolutely had to include this ability, require the Monk to succeed in a Spellcraft check to identify the spell, and if it's harmful, he can spend a Ki Point to raise his SR as an immediate action.

Naoki00 wrote:
Boundless Self- Well in this guys case you'd at least need to have actually GOTTEN an army on one side of the gate in the first place, unlike the party wizard who can just call in the army straight up lol. I just don't feel like being able to go anywhere you want once a day and pinpoint where your going is that strong when by that level your party should be doing that freely anyway according to most people

Getting an army of outsiders to aid you really isn't that hard depending the outsiders and the situation. For example, say you're assaulting the terrible evil lich that's been ruling over the people for centuries. You could easily get a group of willing celestials to come aid you in the fight.

Naoki00 wrote:
Perfect Self- Yeah I...I don't really know what to do with this, I figure I could just add the line that they could choose to be treated as Either an Outsider or their original if it suits them.

Honestly? Tie Perfect Self into the Monks SR; if he lowers his SR he can be affected as creature of his original race, but as long as his SR is raised, he's considered an outsider for spells and effects related to race.


Petty Alchemy wrote:

Quite a bit of good stuff. I like that the speed boost comes right away, and that the bonus feats aren't quite as front-loaded.

I like that Tongues comes in much sooner, though at a Ki cost.

Emulating spells costs too much Ki.

Armored in Life should not apply if the Monk is wearing any sort of armor (even if they are proficient in it), but it's fine to make an exception for clothes enchanted as armor (if they have a base Armor Score of 0).

It seems you try to liberate the Monk from Wis dependance (which I don't necessarily agree with, but I can respect) with Armored in Life and making Ki Pool based on any mental stat, but then why does Wholeness go off Wis?

The assignment of Su vs Ex seems somewhat random here. I can see immunity to poison being Ex (but you have it as Su), while creating a Gate is most definitely not Ex (but you have it as Ex).

For Ki power refer to my thoughts in my super long reply post above.

Armored in life does all those things XD, it says it doesn't work if your wearing armor your not proficient in (which is all of them), but clothing with an enhancement is fine.

with wholeness I was meaning to switch that, now done :)

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My point is that you could easily become proficient in any armor.


Naoki00 wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
Naoki00 wrote:
christos gurd wrote:
Naoki, do you have dragon tiger ox by any chance?
I'm not really familiar with what your asking lol
gifted it to you. Might have some ideas worth mining.
Oh why thank you! :D, where will I find it since this is a first time being gifted?

you should receive an email, and it should be added to yoyr downloads under your account.


Have you put your monk through the Same Game Challenge?


Tels wrote:


I wasn't very clear here, so let me clarify.

If a character (any class) were to wear a chain shirt, he gains a +4 AC bonus; if he were to then equip a set of +3 Bracers of Armor, his AC would not increase because they don't stack (both give an Armor Bonus).

So, what 'type' of bonus the Monk's AC bonus is matters in how he increases his AC.

So, for example, if the Monk's AC bonus were typeless (as the Core Monk's AC bonus is) then it stacks with everything. So, in this case, the Monk could equip a set of +8 Bracers of Armor at high levels to gain a +22 AC bonus (for an AC of 32). The current Monk would only have a +13 AC bonus from his AC bonus and a +8 Bracers of Armor, though he does get a second stat to his AC.

Well, even charging double the spell...

Armored in life right now after I changed it provides an Insight bonus, though honestly I'm not sure why having AC in the low to high 30s as high level is that big an issue, I was always under the impression that you SHOULD have it that high by 14-20th level if your going to be a front liner, especially if you know your HP isn't the highest of them lol. As an insight bonus with this help?

Ki Power- Honestly I knew this ability might be a lot of trouble lol, spells in general almost always seem game breaking if your competent in picking them, and some spells (like simulacrum) I didn't even think of since their nearly permabanned in our games due to it just being silly. I'd really like them to just be Spell likes to not fuss around with components since it's supposed to be them channeling their own inner power and will and not normal 'casting'...I suppose I'll just remove the Wizard list in the end and make it the Cleric list with 1 point per spell level casting, that sound more in line? honestly with the ascetic idea in the long run Cleric spells are probably more thematic anyway lol

Abundant step- yeah that was my slight issue since I don't want to invalidate whole feat chains lol

Diamond Soul- I suppose I'll just add a regular old "can drop it" line lol, if anything for simplicity.

Perfect self- Hmmm...alright I can see the logic in this, but how would you treat him when he's dead? as original because it's not technically 'on'?


OgreBattle wrote:

Have you put your monk through the Same Game Challenge?

Forgive me and my weaksauseness for terms and general naivete lol, but what is the same game challenge? first thought would be playing one of each version in the same scenario


Just a thought, but simply capping ki powers at 6th level instead?


christos gurd wrote:
Just a thought, but simply capping ki powers at 6th level instead?

Sometimes it's the simple things lol, this might work out pretty well. HOw about- No higher then 6th level spells, Ki point cost is 1/spell level, OR, Spell level +1


Spell level +1 seems fair.


christos gurd wrote:
Spell level +1 seems fair.

Alright updates put in lol


Quote:

In Pathfinder, you can willingly forgo your saving throw on spells that have saves. If the Caster tricked you, you don't still get to make your saving throw. The Monk's SR should be the same way.

All I'm saying is letting a Monk lower his SR, but allowing it to automatically reactivate if the spell is actually harmful is very powerful. At the bare minimum, if you absolutely had to include this ability, require the Monk to succeed in a Spellcraft check to identify the spell, and if it's harmful, he can spend a Ki Point to raise his SR as an immediate action.

I do agree with this. It's really weird that a monk would be able to let something through his SR... and then it flies back up if he were mistaken.

My suggestion here: Give the monk a simple choice on every spell that is cast at him. Let it through, or apply SR to it. If he chooses to let it through, and the spellcaster WAS lying to him (or worse, it wasn't actually his spellcaster and was an enemy spellcaster in disguise) he's screwed. That's the nature of making choices.

Hopefully the spell allows a save.


some thoughts.

you give out too much at 1st level. full BAB plus all saves is a significant temptation to dip. plus a feat. can i suggest you streamline the bonus feats like ranger's style feats? 2/6/10/14/18.

agreed with comments about proficiency. 'simple + monk + shortsword + shortbow' will do (you can drop that last one of you like).

i like the Ki powers. i would consider granting them one power every level beginning with 4th level, at the progression of other full-BAB casters (1st at 4/5/6, 2nd at 7/8/9, 3rd at 10/11/12, 4th at 13+), on a more restricted list (Cleric's is a good suggestion), at a cost equal to spell level. still a very finite amount, especially given the other pool abilities.

i would restore WIS to AC. require investment.

Diamond Soul: the suggestion to 'lower as immediate, re-raise as free' is much better than the slippery definition on friendly spells. it also grants a window to enemies to ready an action to hit the monk who lowers his resistance 'just for a second', while still demanding less sacrifice overall.

maybe the fast healing bit can last for one minute?

more later


rainzax wrote:
Diamond Soul: the suggestion to 'lower as immediate, re-raise as free' is much better than the slippery definition on friendly spells. it also grants a window to enemies to ready an action to hit the monk who lowers his resistance 'just for a second', while still demanding less sacrifice overall.

The problem here, is that an immediate action is a very limited resource, the use of which robs the character of his swift action for the following round.

'Allow an incoming spell to bypass as a non-action' is the better way to run it in my mind.


rainzax wrote:

some thoughts.

you give out too much at 1st level. full BAB plus all saves is a significant temptation to dip. plus a feat. can i suggest you streamline the bonus feats like ranger's style feats? 2/6/10/14/18.

agreed with comments about proficiency. 'simple + monk + shortsword + shortbow' will do (you can drop that last one of you like).

i like the Ki powers. i would consider granting them one power every level beginning with 4th level, at the progression of other full-BAB casters (1st at 4/5/6, 2nd at 7/8/9, 3rd at 10/11/12, 4th at 13+), on a more restricted list (Cleric's is a good suggestion), at a cost equal to spell level. still a very finite amount, especially given the other pool abilities.

i would restore WIS to AC. require investment.

Diamond Soul: the suggestion to 'lower as immediate, re-raise as free' is much better than the slippery definition on friendly spells. it also grants a window to enemies to ready an action to hit the monk who lowers his resistance 'just for a second', while still demanding less sacrifice overall.

maybe the fast healing bit can last for one minute?

more later

To be honest it's really hard to NOT front load this type of class I'm finding, since it needs to actually be able to do it's thing (frontline with D8 hit die and only your fists usually) and still work, thats kinda hard to do at first through 4th it feels like, Though an have been thinking about moving the Bonus Feat at first to 2nd lol, as for dipping as is you'd get a feat, unarmed, and stunning fist which is nice and why I've been thinking on it, though armored in life won't work unless your unarmored and then why not just keep going in monk lol

As for Ki power...honestly I don't like the full BaB spell progression, and I want these chosen powers to be a big deal in what you choose because they are so limited, but are only limited in use by Ki pool management, as for levels they kinda already have that lol, -1 max level of a caster you level when you pick it and all.

With the AC...why would you want to make them MAD still? the reason it's not there is to actually let them have more freedom in that regard lol

Diamond soul- the problem with that is that they would lose a very precious swift action next round, and honestly I would rather not have the opening for a caster to use like that, caster have it too good as is , no need to let them hit through the one defense a monk has against them (sides good saves which don't always help)


Naoki00,
overall i like some of the creative stuff you got here. also i like the suggestion to have Featherstep remain active round-round, increasing it's range, at a ki cost. an elegant suggestion.

frontloading/dipping:
i think you underestimate how cool all good saves is, +2/+2/+2 to Fort/Ref/Will, coupled with +1 BAB, coupled with Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist and another bonus feat, coupled with an armor bonus of +4 at no check penalty, coupled with +10 movement. if it were me, i'd cut back atleast two of those things. it's too good. like shifting the bonus feats to 2/6/10/14/18, and maybe making it cost a feat to get Stunning Fist (rather than getting it for free).

ki powers:
maybe you misunderstood me, but i didn't suggest full 4-level progression, i suggested 1 power per level starting when the monk gains his ki pool at 4th level (so, 17 total ki powers by level 20). these are initially 1st level powers, but the option to select 2nd/3rd/4th level powers comes at 7th/10th/13th level. the chassis is borrowed from full-BAB casters, but the mechanic is different. what balances this is the fact that the monk's actual ki pool in constrained, making lower-level powers more desirable for their lower cost.

diamond soul:
is a very cool ability. i think the occasional sacrifice of an immediate action is a fair price to pay for such flexibility. the beauty of the immediate action lowering is that you can do it right as an ally is casting a beneficial spell on you, and then on your initiative count it re-raises for free. besides, i think a limited ki pool takes some of the pressure off of the action economy in a roundabout way concerning swift actions, and it gives the monk another tool to weigh the risk/reward of accepting a multi-round buff versus taking a single extra attack/move/dodge, etc.

cheers


If you feel the need to address the perceived 'front-loading/dipping' problem being repeatedly brought up here, leaving a bonus feat at level 1 and making stunning fist one option that can be taken with it (rather than handing it out for free) might be a good way to tone it down without screwing the level 1 monks.

EDIT: and Rain, you're forgetting that SR isn't even guaranteed to work. On average you're probably going to be lucky if it succeeds 50% of the time against an opposing caster.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

If you feel the need to address the perceived 'front-loading/dipping' problem being repeatedly brought up here, leaving a bonus feat at level 1 and making stunning fist one option that can be taken with it (rather than handing it out for free) might be a good way to tone it down without screwing the level 1 monks.

EDIT: and Rain, you're forgetting that SR isn't even guaranteed to work. On average you're probably going to be lucky if it succeeds 50% of the time against an opposing caster.

I think I will move stunning fist to an option instead of a guarantee,, I mostly kept it to help balance out that until lvl 3 they still don't and bonus to hit with their preferred method of attacking and since I made the feat list still only a few options that they now need to meet the prereqs to get (other then style feats or stunning fist related which are free to take, but of course are for unarmed). moving Stunning fist from free to 'another option' should help


rainzax wrote:

Naoki00,

overall i like some of the creative stuff you got here. also i like the suggestion to have Featherstep remain active round-round, increasing it's range, at a ki cost. an elegant suggestion.

frontloading/dipping:
i think you underestimate how cool all good saves is, +2/+2/+2 to Fort/Ref/Will, coupled with +1 BAB, coupled with Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist and another bonus feat, coupled with an armor bonus of +4 at no check penalty, coupled with +10 movement. if it were me, i'd cut back atleast two of those things. it's too good. like shifting the bonus feats to 2/6/10/14/18, and maybe making it cost a feat to get Stunning Fist (rather than getting it for free).

ki powers:
maybe you misunderstood me, but i didn't suggest full 4-level progression, i suggested 1 power per level starting when the monk gains his ki pool at 4th level (so, 17 total ki powers by level 20). these are initially 1st level powers, but the option to select 2nd/3rd/4th level powers comes at 7th/10th/13th level. the chassis is borrowed from full-BAB casters, but the mechanic is different. what balances this is the fact that the monk's actual ki pool in constrained, making lower-level powers more desirable for their lower cost.

diamond soul:
is a very cool ability. i think the occasional sacrifice of an immediate action is a fair price to pay for such flexibility. the beauty of the immediate action lowering is that you can do it right as an ally is casting a beneficial spell on you, and then on your initiative count it re-raises for free. besides, i think a limited ki pool takes some of the pressure off of the action economy in a roundabout way concerning swift actions, and it gives the monk another tool to weigh the risk/reward of accepting a multi-round buff versus taking a single extra attack/move/dodge, etc.

cheers

Saves- I supposer I do underestimate it lol, if only because in all the games I've played having all good saves doesn't mean all GREAT saves, since that 3 ability scores that need to be high (or 1 if your a paladin) and half the time it's still been a 50/50 shot to pass from good or bad rolls, but thats a personal opinion and not why I kept them. I kept them because until you get Diamond soul their all your gonna get against magic. Most people buy SR armor or something from what I've played but the monk can't.

Ki powers- woah 17? thats...thats a LOT of spells lol. That sounds more like what a primary caster should be sorting through compared to what I was thinking, I just want them to have the option of personalizing with 'special' techniques, like how in wuxia style stuff everyones got their own special moves, these are the monks, and even if their low level the quantity seems a little much even for lv20, you could pick all the utility spells under the sun at that point.

Diamond Body- but even after the changes their still a melee frontliner that can't buy and customize armor for certain challenges, why make them weaker then they are by giving the most powerful enemies in the game (casters/primary casting monsters) a chance to save or die you just because you wanted the same buff the fighter got?


Naoki00 wrote:
I think I will move stunning fist to an option instead of a guarantee,, I mostly kept it to help balance out that until lvl 3 they still don't and bonus to hit with their preferred method of attacking

To steal a simple solution that's always been part of my houserules since before I was DMing, 'A monk's body is a masterwork weapon, and can be magically enhanced as such.' There's your bonus to hit. If you're concerned about dippers put it at level 2 (I wouldn't, but it is an option.)

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