Permanent enlarge + ranged weapon


Rules Questions


If you have permanent enlarge and you do a ranged attack does the weapon revert back is original size or would it stay large sized?


Reverts back.

get a Large ranged weapon if permanent.

But then I'd hit your character with a dispel magic at some point.


If you have a ring of enlarge person (effectively making you permanently large) or whether you simply have enlarge person permanence'd on you as soon as the arrow leaves the string it goes back to being medium size. If you drop your gear it goes back to being medium size.

You could buy a large size bow with large size arrows and that will give you the damage increase. When you pick items up they do not increase is size, things are only increase if they are on your person when the spell is cast.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Claxon is correct, you'll need large ammo. The ammo you have when the spell is cast will be large, until it leaves your person. Medium arrows that you buy after the fact won't immediately scale up either.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Well it depends.

The enlarge person text means that if you drop a projectile weapon and then pick it up to stab someone, it is reduced in size and thus damage.

If you throw a weapon, it is reduced in size and damage.

If you shoot an arrow, it is reduced in size but the damage is not reduced, since the damage is based upon the weapon firing it.

CRB wrote:
(projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).


Rikkan wrote:

Well it depends.

The enlarge person text means that if you drop a projectile weapon and then pick it up to stab someone, it is reduced in size and thus damage.

If you throw a weapon, it is reduced in size and damage.

If you shoot an arrow, it is reduced in size but the damage is not reduced, since the damage is based upon the weapon firing it.

CRB wrote:
(projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

I know what that says, but I promise you the damage goes down.


Specifically, the damage goes down because the spell says it does:

Enlarge Person wrote:
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.


Xaratherus wrote:

Specifically, the damage goes down because the spell says it does:

Enlarge Person wrote:
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.

Thanks Xaratherus, I was in the process of bringing up the spell description and some other stuff but you beat me to the punch.


Xaratherus wrote:

Specifically, the damage goes down because the spell says it does:

Enlarge Person wrote:
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.

Yeah the damage goes down, unless you fire them with a ranged weapon. If that is the case the projectile does damage based upon the weapon that fired it.


Magic is not Logical.

Magic is magic, and it doesn't follow the laws of nature, or the conservation or energy or any of that. It's specifically there to break them.

Arrows do 1d8 damage because the spell specifically says that they do normal damage and not enlarged damage. It doesn't matter if you fire it from your enlarged bow.


Static Hamster wrote:

Magic is not Logical.

Magic is magic, and it doesn't follow the laws of nature, or the conservation or energy or any of that. It's specifically there to break them.

Arrows do 1d8 damage because the spell specifically says that they do normal damage and not enlarged damage. It doesn't matter if you fire it from your enlarged bow.

Actually Magic can be very logical. Consider the arrow.

F=mvv

By the time the arrow leaves the string, the bow has imparted a certain degree of force to it which is defined by the mass of the arrow and the rate at which the bow accelerated it. So with nothing changed, the arrow hits with X amount of force.

Bring magic into the mix and what do we have? An object actually losing mass while in flight. This is no different than if your perfectly packed snowball falls apart in transit to the guy you were tying to hit with it. I think most of us have seen this happen.

The enlarge effect ends and the mass of the arrow reduces after it's left the bow. So the overall Force reduces as well. Thereby leaving you with normal damage.

Conservation of energy preserved. :)


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Rikkan wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:

Specifically, the damage goes down because the spell says it does:

Enlarge Person wrote:
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.
Yeah the damage goes down, unless you fire them with a ranged weapon. If that is the case the projectile does damage based upon the weapon that fired it.

The rules of the spell override the rule you quoted. The damage goes down.


Claxon wrote:
Rikkan wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:

Specifically, the damage goes down because the spell says it does:

Enlarge Person wrote:
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.
Yeah the damage goes down, unless you fire them with a ranged weapon. If that is the case the projectile does damage based upon the weapon that fired it.
The rules of the spell override the rule you quoted. The damage goes down.

The rules of the spell would override the rule if it conflicted. It does not.

The damage goes down if the projectile ever left your possession and was not shot by a ranged weapon.

If a projectile was shot by a ranged weapon, it will do damage based on the size of the weapon that fired it.


Enlarge person wrote:
..including a projectile or thrown weapon..

An arrow is a projectile. Thus both rules do conflict which leads to the spell overrides and the damage goes down.

Note: It does NOT say a thrown projectile or something like that. It applies to projectiles in all forms and situations.


Rikkan wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Rikkan wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:

Specifically, the damage goes down because the spell says it does:

Enlarge Person wrote:
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.
Yeah the damage goes down, unless you fire them with a ranged weapon. If that is the case the projectile does damage based upon the weapon that fired it.
The rules of the spell override the rule you quoted. The damage goes down.

The rules of the spell would override the rule if it conflicted. It does not.

The damage goes down if the projectile ever left your possession and was not shot by a ranged weapon.

If a projectile was shot by a ranged weapon, it will do damage based on the size of the weapon that fired it.

To the OP: Rikkan is wrong.

To Rikkan: You are wrong, a projectile weapon is mentioned in the spell text. The spell is the specefic that overrides the general.

And on the OP subject. As have been said, you just need large equipment as everything will shrink the moment you stop touching it and not grow back up when you pick it up. but if you use equipment that is already large it will not change size when you stop holding on to it:)


is it me or has there been a rise in people just ignoring common sense/intent, willfully ignoring RAW and extrapolating the meaning of words to the absurd?


Cardinal Chunder wrote:
is it me or has there been a rise in people just ignoring common sense/intent, willfully ignoring RAW and extrapolating the meaning of words to the absurd?

I wouldn't call it a rise. I think the level has been consistent, but with the internet we just notice it more now.


My2Copper wrote:

An arrow is a projectile. Thus both rules do conflict which leads to the spell overrides and the damage goes down.

Note: It does NOT say a thrown projectile or something like that. It applies to projectiles in all forms and situations.

Ah I see where you're going wrong.

One rule is more specific than the other, so they don't conflict.

Just like say:
casting a spell in general provokes.
But casting on the defence does not.

While it appears there is a contradiction there, the casting on the defence rules apply to the more specific situation.

Just like the rules for projectiles that we are discussing.
The

Quote:
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.
are the more general rules, while the :
Quote:
(projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

are more specific.

So to give an example the general rule about normal damage would apply if you used telekinesis to thrust arrows at someone, while the based on size of the weapon rules would apply if you fired arrows at someone with a bow.


No! Het! Nein! Non!

You're so close to the correct answer, but you have made an incorrect assumption.

The general rule is that "projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fires them".

The specific rule is that when enlarged:

Quote:
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.

The rule is more specific because it is about the specific situation of someone being magically enlarged and firing an arrow. Which is more specific than the general case of someone firing an arrow.


Spell text is almost invariably specific (in terms of specific trumps general) than rules found in the combat and game mastering section, since spells are intended to alter the function of the basic (general) game rules.

To pose a question to Rikkan: If the intent is that arrows from a bow (a projectile weapon, by definition) deal damage as though the weapon were enlarged, what purpose does including that text in the spell description serve? If the general rule (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the projectile weapon that fired them) were intended to be factored in with the Enlarge Person spell, then that text serves no purpose and in fact causes a rules contradiction.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

To OP and Rikkan:

Rule of thumb is if you are not touching the weapon when it deals damage, it deals normal damage.

Shooting an arrow, your grasp ceases to touch it so it deals normal.

This is all spelled out in the spell.


James Risner wrote:

To OP and Rikkan:

Rule of thumb is if you are not touching the weapon when it deals damage, it deals normal damage.

Shooting an arrow, your grasp ceases to touch it so it deals normal.

This is all spelled out in the spell.

That's not exactly true. If you cast reduce person on yourself and shoot an arrow it still deals reduced damage.

Reduce Person wrote:
Melee and projectile weapons deal less damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any reduced item that leaves the reduced creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

Reduce Person and Enlarge Person end up having dissimilar results because of the way the rules are written. Presumably this is because allowing a bow to deal normal damage while having a character gain a bonus to dex, attack, etc and not take a penalty to damage would be too good.


Xaratherus wrote:

Spell text is almost invariably specific (in terms of specific trumps general) than rules found in the combat and game mastering section, since spells are intended to alter the function of the basic (general) game rules.

To pose a question to Rikkan: If the intent is that arrows from a bow (a projectile weapon, by definition) deal damage as though the weapon were enlarged, what purpose does including that text in the spell description serve? If the general rule (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the projectile weapon that fired them) were intended to be factored in with the Enlarge Person spell, then that text serves no purpose and in fact causes a rules contradiction.

No, ruling it any other way in fact creates a rule contradiction.

The reason enlarge person has that text is for when projectiles are not fired by a weapon. Say if you use telekinesis to hurl projectiles at someone or if you use a Ranged Attack Trap and other situations like that.


Rikkan wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:

Spell text is almost invariably specific (in terms of specific trumps general) than rules found in the combat and game mastering section, since spells are intended to alter the function of the basic (general) game rules.

To pose a question to Rikkan: If the intent is that arrows from a bow (a projectile weapon, by definition) deal damage as though the weapon were enlarged, what purpose does including that text in the spell description serve? If the general rule (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the projectile weapon that fired them) were intended to be factored in with the Enlarge Person spell, then that text serves no purpose and in fact causes a rules contradiction.

No, ruling it any other way in fact creates a rule contradiction.

The reason enlarge person has that text is for when projectiles are not fired by a weapon. Say if you use telekinesis to hurl projectiles at someone or if you use a Ranged Attack Trap and other situations like that.

Dude, you're wrong.

9 people in this thread have stated and agreed that the damage goes back to normal. So far, you're the only one that thinks the damage doesn't change. You premise for this is because you don't understand which rule is the more specific rule. But besides that, which do you think is more likely, that the 9 of us who are in agreement about this topic (which has been discussed multiple times on this board are wrong), or that you the sole contrarian are wrong?

Here are four threads which show we are correct:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qmfc?Bows-and-Enlarge#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o0ns?Gravity-bow-Monk-Unarmed-Damage-Strong-Ja w#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pyt2?Enlarge-and-Reduce-Person-when-considerin g-Bows#1
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p600?Why-do-Reduce-Person-and-Enlarge-Person-d eal#1


Start with Force = mass * acceleration.

Force = D = Damage
X = mass
Y = acceleration

Medium Longbow fires Medium Arrow of X mass and imparts Y acceleration to it. D = XY

Large Longbow fires Large Arrow of 2X mass and imparts Y acceleration to it. D = 2XY

Enlarged Longbow fires enlarged Arrow of 2X mass and imparts Y acceleration to it. However once Arrow leaves wielder's possession it reverts back to Medium size of X mass.

D = XY

This is not hard to understand. The RAW supports real life physics.

Dark Archive

Just to help back this up. Enlarge person states this, note the highlighted last line:

Enlarge Person wrote:
Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.

It does not state ammunition from a projectile weapon. But that projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Projectile weapons are a defined term in the Core book (quoted below) and are separate from their ammunition:

Quote:

Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

So, it does not state that ammunition does normal damage, but that the projectile weapon deals normal damage (as opposed to the size increased damage). So, yes, ammunition does damage based on the size of the weapon that fires it, and the spell states that the weapon itself does normal damage. The specific that overrides the general is that the projectile weapon does normal damage.


Rikkan wrote:

No, ruling it any other way in fact creates a rule contradiction.

The reason enlarge person has that text is for when projectiles are not fired by a weapon. Say if you use telekinesis to hurl projectiles at someone or if you use a Ranged Attack Trap and other situations like that.

Except that it specifically says "projectile weapon", and (as Happler points out), that is a defined game term. A "projectile weapon" does not refer to a rock that you hurl with telekinesis; it refers to a bow, crossbow, sling, gun, etc.

Additionally, hurling rocks around with Telekinesis (along with being a fairly rare occurrence - rare enough that arguing that they put that text into Enlarge Person specifically to address those occurrences isn't logical) does not require an exemption in Enlarge Person. Why? Because the abilities and spells that grant such powers give you the specific rules on how they work and how they cause damage.


If you get permanent enlarge person on yourself, you are pretty much required to get all of your equipment in a large size.

If you just assume your equipment, prior to being enlarged, will work just fine, you are not really thinking things through...

From that point on, you can never take off your armor (to go to sleep, to bathe, to swim, to have a night off at the local brothel, or just get captured and have it removed for you). If you do (and you will) you can't use it anymore.

Same with a weapon, if you ever put it down (or get disarmed, have to drop it to grab something else, or asked to leave it to attend a fancy party), you now have a inappropriately sized weapon from that point forward.

So if you're walking around with a medium sized bow and arrows, as a permanently enlarged humanoid, your going to screw yourself sooner rather then later.

Just get large everything and avoid the whole argument.

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